Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

[The Liturgist]

Yes, I don't hear many advocating for such in recent times.

Ellen White did not repudiate Uriah Smith's defense in her own time, however.

It seems any clarifications would wind up requiring more explanation of the statements, which would highlight the strange harmatology. So she said nothing while Uriah Smith promoted this view.

Well this thread is depressing and is something of an eye opener. Could you elaborate on what you mean by the strange hamartiology?

 

[tall73]

Well this thread is depressing and is something of an eye opener. Could you elaborate on what you mean by the strange hamartiology?

Yes, it is depressing.

Regarding harmitology, the study of sin, the passages are discussing a specific sin.

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation

Folks can downplay the statements on amalgamation, and say they are not really a doctrinal issue. But if there was one sin, above the others, that was so egregious that it called for the destruction of the flood, and it was again seen AFTER the flood, that is a rather significant topic.

All the more so because Adventists cannot seem to describe what this extremely serious sin entailed, while actually matching up their answer with the details of the statements.

Moreover, Ellen White says it is ONE sin, and Bob apparently turns that into two different sins, with two different mechanisms--unless of course he is alleging mating between believing and unbelieving animals brought about more species.

So when Bob tried in his initial statements to make it sound like this doesn't involve doctrine, that is incorrect.

Engaging with non-SDAs on "why I don't like something Ellen White wrote" topics - are not as high a priority for me personally as the doctrinal topics.

A description of a sin that is above others, that had a key role in leading to the flood, and still went on after the flood, and the results of which could be seen in "certain races" of men, and in species of animals is a doctrinal topic.

It is of course a "strange" doctrinal topic because it is rather hard to explain what it is while sticking with the details of the statement. And when people found it controversial Ellen White did nothing to clarify it.

Nor did she repudiate the answer which allmost no one in the Adventist church agrees with today, which was promoted by her husband, which was Uriah Smith's view.

In fact Bob, and every other Adventist who has weighed in on the topic so far, has been very keen on making sure we DO NOT take the view of human WITH animal amalgamation that Uriah Smith described. I think that is strange. If it was so objectionable, why did James White not rebuke Uriah Smith? Why did Ellen White not correct Uriah Smith?

Modern Adventists reject the view. But when they try to deal with the statements she made they don't seem to be able to explain why the results of this mysterious sin were seen in "certain races" of men in Ellen White's day.

 

[tall73]

Well this thread is depressing and is something of an eye opener.

Regarding statements on the handling of race by Ellen White you can find a number of statements in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9
in section 6.

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9 — Ellen G. White Writings

m.egwwritings.org

Here is a sample:

---

Chapter 24—The Color Line​

I have some things to say in regard to the colored people of the Southern States of America and the relation that we should sustain to them. So long were they under the curse of slavery that it is a difficult problem to know how they should now be treated. 9T 213.1

When God's workers allow His Spirit to work upon their minds, much will be accomplished in the saving of souls. The Lord is our helper. He will guide us in all matters if we will trust in Him. One thing is certain: We must have faith in God—faith that He will arrange matters in a way that will enable us to work successfully. No one ever trusted God in vain. He will never disappoint those who put their trust in Him. 9T 213.2

We are to avoid entering into contention over the problem of the color line. If this question is much agitated, difficulties will arise that will consume much precious time to adjust. We cannot lay down a definite line to be followed in dealing with this subject. In different places and under varying circumstances, the subject will need to be handled differently. In the South, where race prejudice is so strong, we could do nothing in presenting the truth were we to deal with the color line question as we can deal with it in some places in the North. The white workers in the South will have to move in a way that will enable them to gain access to the white people. 9T 213.3
It is Satan's plan to call minds to the study of the color line. If his suggestions are heeded, there will be diversity of opinion and great confusion. No one is capable of clearly defining the proper position of the colored people. Men may advance theories, but I assure you that it will not do for us to follow human theories. So far as possible the color line question should be allowed to rest. 9T 213.4
The cities of the South are to be worked, and for this work the best talent is to be secured, and that without delay. Let white workers labor for the white people, proclaiming the message of present truth in its simplicity. They will find openings through which they may reach the higher class. Every opportunity for reaching this class is to be improved. 9T 214.1
Let colored laborers do what they can to keep abreast, working earnestly for their own people. I thank God that among the colored believers there are men of talent who can work efficiently for their own people, presenting the truth in clear lines. There are many colored people of precious talent who will be converted to the truth if our colored ministers are wise in devising ways of training teachers for the schools and other laborers for the field. 9T 214.2
The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people. The relation of the two races has been a matter hard to deal with, and I fear that it will ever remain a most perplexing problem. So far as possible, everything that would stir up the race prejudice of the white people should be avoided. There is danger of closing the door so that our white laborers will not be able to work in some places in the South. 9T 214.3
I know that if we attempt to meet the ideas and preferences of some of the colored people, we shall find our way blocked completely. The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race. Should we attempt to do this we should find that barriers like mountains would be raised to hinder the work that God desires to have done. If we move quietly and judiciously, laboring in the way that God has marked out, both white and colored people will be benefited by our labors. 9T 214.4
The time has not come for us to work as if there were no prejudice. Christ said: “Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:16. If you see that by doing certain things which you have a perfect right to do, you hinder the advancement of God's work, refrain from doing those things. Do nothing that will close the minds of others against the truth. There is a world to save, and we shall gain nothing by cutting loose from those we are trying to help. All things may be lawful, but all things are not expedient. 9T 215.1
The wise course is the best. As laborers together with God, we are to work in the way that will enable us to accomplish the most for Him. Let none go to extremes. We need wisdom from above; for we have a difficult problem to solve. If rash moves are made now, great mischief will be done. The matter is to be presented in such a way that the truly converted colored people will cling to the truth for Christ's sake, refusing to renounce one principle of sound Bible doctrine because they may think that the very best course is not being pursued toward the Negro race. 9T 215.2
We must sit as learners at the feet of Christ, that He may teach us the will of God and that we may know how to work for the white people and the colored people in the Southern field. We are to do as the Spirit of the Lord shall dictate, and agitate the subject of the color line as little as possible. We must use every energy to present the closing gospel message to all classes in the South. As we are led and controlled by the Spirit of God we shall find that this question will adjust itself in the minds of our people. 9T 215.3
Let us individually seek the Lord. Let those whose religious experience in the past has been only a surface work, draw near to God. Repent, repent, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. 9T 216.1
When we are prepared to take hold of the work in earnest we shall be better able than we are now to deal with the questions involved in this work. Let every believer do his best to prepare the way for the gospel missionary work that is to be done. But let no one enter into controversy. It is Satan's object to keep Christians occupied in controversies among themselves. He knows that if they do not watch, the day of the Lord will come on them as a thief in the night. We have no time now to give place to the spirit of the enemy and to cherish prejudices that confuse the judgment and lead us away from Christ. 9T 216.2
It will take money and earnest, persevering effort to do that which needs to be done among the colored people. Every man needs now to stand in his lot and place, confessing and forsaking his sins, and working in harmony with his brethren. God's workers are to be of one mind and one heart, praying for the impartation of the Spirit and believing that God will fulfill His word. 9T 216.3

 

[tall73]

To put it in historical context, consider the split between Northern and Southern baptists over the issue of slavery. Various churches dealt with the issues in various ways. And part of that was influenced by region.

Southern Baptists today have renounced their earlier position, and rightly so.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862

 

[tall73]

The statements of Ellen White, and the approach of having white ministers reaching out to whites in the south, and black ministers reaching out to blacks in the south, have continuing ramifications for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in America today.

The Adventist church has separate administrative bodies and churches that focus on reaching out to blacks, with black leadership. These regional conferences stem back to difficulties in racial relations in the work of the church.

@The Liturgist

Here is a video that describes this history, from an historian and adjunct professor at Andrews University, Benjamin J. Baker, PhD. He discusses the historical context of Ellen White's statements.

 

[tall73]

Another perspective on regional conferences:

The Dissolution of Regional Conferences: Another Perspective

For several years now, I have listened with interest to arguments for and against the continued operation of regional conferences. Most of the arguments against their continued existence are these: 1. Separate (so called “segregated” conferences) fly in the face of the biblical imperative...

spectrummagazine.org

 

[The Liturgist]

Regarding statements on the handling of race by Ellen White you can find a number of statements in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9
in section 6.

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9 — Ellen G. White Writings

m.egwwritings.org

Here is a sample:

---

Chapter 24—The Color Line​

I have some things to say in regard to the colored people of the Southern States of America and the relation that we should sustain to them. So long were they under the curse of slavery that it is a difficult problem to know how they should now be treated. 9T 213.1

When God's workers allow His Spirit to work upon their minds, much will be accomplished in the saving of souls. The Lord is our helper. He will guide us in all matters if we will trust in Him. One thing is certain: We must have faith in God—faith that He will arrange matters in a way that will enable us to work successfully. No one ever trusted God in vain. He will never disappoint those who put their trust in Him. 9T 213.2

We are to avoid entering into contention over the problem of the color line. If this question is much agitated, difficulties will arise that will consume much precious time to adjust. We cannot lay down a definite line to be followed in dealing with this subject. In different places and under varying circumstances, the subject will need to be handled differently. In the South, where race prejudice is so strong, we could do nothing in presenting the truth were we to deal with the color line question as we can deal with it in some places in the North. The white workers in the South will have to move in a way that will enable them to gain access to the white people. 9T 213.3
It is Satan's plan to call minds to the study of the color line. If his suggestions are heeded, there will be diversity of opinion and great confusion. No one is capable of clearly defining the proper position of the colored people. Men may advance theories, but I assure you that it will not do for us to follow human theories. So far as possible the color line question should be allowed to rest. 9T 213.4
The cities of the South are to be worked, and for this work the best talent is to be secured, and that without delay. Let white workers labor for the white people, proclaiming the message of present truth in its simplicity. They will find openings through which they may reach the higher class. Every opportunity for reaching this class is to be improved. 9T 214.1
Let colored laborers do what they can to keep abreast, working earnestly for their own people. I thank God that among the colored believers there are men of talent who can work efficiently for their own people, presenting the truth in clear lines. There are many colored people of precious talent who will be converted to the truth if our colored ministers are wise in devising ways of training teachers for the schools and other laborers for the field. 9T 214.2
The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people. The relation of the two races has been a matter hard to deal with, and I fear that it will ever remain a most perplexing problem. So far as possible, everything that would stir up the race prejudice of the white people should be avoided. There is danger of closing the door so that our white laborers will not be able to work in some places in the South. 9T 214.3
I know that if we attempt to meet the ideas and preferences of some of the colored people, we shall find our way blocked completely. The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race. Should we attempt to do this we should find that barriers like mountains would be raised to hinder the work that God desires to have done. If we move quietly and judiciously, laboring in the way that God has marked out, both white and colored people will be benefited by our labors. 9T 214.4
The time has not come for us to work as if there were no prejudice. Christ said: “Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:16. If you see that by doing certain things which you have a perfect right to do, you hinder the advancement of God's work, refrain from doing those things. Do nothing that will close the minds of others against the truth. There is a world to save, and we shall gain nothing by cutting loose from those we are trying to help. All things may be lawful, but all things are not expedient. 9T 215.1
The wise course is the best. As laborers together with God, we are to work in the way that will enable us to accomplish the most for Him. Let none go to extremes. We need wisdom from above; for we have a difficult problem to solve. If rash moves are made now, great mischief will be done. The matter is to be presented in such a way that the truly converted colored people will cling to the truth for Christ's sake, refusing to renounce one principle of sound Bible doctrine because they may think that the very best course is not being pursued toward the Negro race. 9T 215.2
We must sit as learners at the feet of Christ, that He may teach us the will of God and that we may know how to work for the white people and the colored people in the Southern field. We are to do as the Spirit of the Lord shall dictate, and agitate the subject of the color line as little as possible. We must use every energy to present the closing gospel message to all classes in the South. As we are led and controlled by the Spirit of God we shall find that this question will adjust itself in the minds of our people. 9T 215.3
Let us individually seek the Lord. Let those whose religious experience in the past has been only a surface work, draw near to God. Repent, repent, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. 9T 216.1
When we are prepared to take hold of the work in earnest we shall be better able than we are now to deal with the questions involved in this work. Let every believer do his best to prepare the way for the gospel missionary work that is to be done. But let no one enter into controversy. It is Satan's object to keep Christians occupied in controversies among themselves. He knows that if they do not watch, the day of the Lord will come on them as a thief in the night. We have no time now to give place to the spirit of the enemy and to cherish prejudices that confuse the judgment and lead us away from Christ. 9T 216.2
It will take money and earnest, persevering effort to do that which needs to be done among the colored people. Every man needs now to stand in his lot and place, confessing and forsaking his sins, and working in harmony with his brethren. God's workers are to be of one mind and one heart, praying for the impartation of the Spirit and believing that God will fulfill His word. 9T 216.3

This is truly shocking and is not only pro-segregation, effectively segregating the Adventist church in order to maximize the efficiency of evangelization, but also I find myself astonished by the callous attitude EGW shows towards the “ideas and preferences of some of the colored people.” This seems to refer to the idea of equality enshrined in the fourteenth ammendment, which had initially been granted by the Emancipation Proclamation, but which was subsequently suppressed as a result of the formation of the original KKK in the 1870s, and its reformation during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson, who was an enthusiast of the film “the Birth of a Nation” which glorified the Klan; both the original and reconstituted Klans used terrorism in the form of lynching and other horrors to disenfranchise and oppress black people in the South and elsewhere, even California, where a legacy exists of “Sun Down Towns” where black people were warned to leave before sunset, the implication being they would be lynched for non-compliance.

All of this directly contributed to the racial tension and political polarization that now plagues our country, with the white supremacists and their abuses having led to the organization of black supremacist entities such as the Black Panthers, BLM and the Nation of Islam.

And thus, these writings by EGW are seriously problematic. It is almost the exact opposite of what the Christian martyr St. Martin Luther King taught. Out of curiosity, did any Adventist clergy accompany Dr. Martin Luther King on his protest walks, as did so many Protestant and Catholic clergy?

 

[tall73]

This is truly shocking and is not only pro-segregation, effectively segregating the Adventist church in order to maximize the efficiency of evangelization, but also I find myself astonished by the callous attitude EGW shows towards the “ideas and preferences of some of the colored people.” This seems to refer to the idea of equality enshrined in the fourteenth ammendment, which had initially been granted by the Emancipation Proclamation, but which was subsequently suppressed as a result of the formation of the original KKK in the 1870s, and its reformation during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson, who was an enthusiast of the film “the Birth of a Nation” which glorified the Klan; both the original and reconstituted Klans used terrorism in the form of lynching and other horrors to disenfranchise and oppress black people in the South and elsewhere, even California, where a legacy exists of “Sun Down Towns” where black people were warned to leave before sunset, the implication being they would be lynched for non-compliance.

All of this directly contributed to the racial tension and political polarization that now plagues our country, with the white supremacists and their abuses having led to the organization of black supremacist entities such as the Black Panthers, BLM and the Nation of Islam.

And thus, these writings by EGW are seriously problematic. It is almost the exact opposite of what the Christian martyr St. Martin Luther King taught. Out of curiosity, did any Adventist clergy accompany Dr. Martin Luther King on his protest walks, as did so many Protestant and Catholic clergy?

As usual, it is complicated! But the short answer is yes. You might read these articles.

Martin Luther King Jr. and Adventists - Issuu

What was the relationship of Adventists to Martin Luther King Jr.? While the attitude of Adventist church leadership of the time was against involvement in the Civil Rights Movement, some individual Adventist members were very much at the heart of what they saw as both a social and a spiritual...

issuu.com

A Journey and a March | Adventist Review

THE KICKS ON ROUTE 66 WERE FEW, and usually only when the 6' 3" guy wedged into the luggage space of the two-seater Karmann Ghia tried to straighten his legs.

adventistreview.org

Who's That Adventist Woman Beside Martin Luther King Jr.? | Adventist Review

Yolanda Clarke says a pivotal day in civil rights history bears a message for Adventists today.

adventistreview.org

 

[tall73]

Well that’s properly horrifying.

It might help to understand what Uriah Smith was responding to as well. His published answers were in response to Adventists in Iowa who came into disagreement with Ellen White's writings, after formerly supporting.

Martin Luther King Jr. and Adventists - Issuu

What was the relationship of Adventists to Martin Luther King Jr.? While the attitude of Adventist church leadership of the time was against involvement in the Civil Rights Movement, some individual Adventist members were very much at the heart of what they saw as both a social and a spiritual...

issuu.com

--------------quote-------
B. F. Snook & Wm. H. Brinkerhoff
The Visions of E. G. White Not of God

Chapter 2. They teach Doctrines Contrary to the Bible,
Absurd, Inconsistent and Contradictory.
THEY TEACH DOCTRINES CONTRARY TO THE BIBLE
1. These visions teach that the Negro race is not human. This charge they deny, but we will let the reader decide for himself. Here is what she says; "Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species, and in certain races of men." - Spiritual Gifts. Vol. 3, p. 75.* But what are we to understand by certain races of men? She has not informed us in her writings, but left us to fix the stigma of amalgamation where we may see fit. But the interpretation has come to light. She told it to her husband, and he made it known to Eld. Ingraham, and he divulged the secret to the writer that Sister White had seen that God never made the Darkey. Paul says: "And hath made of one bleed all nations of men, for to dwell on all the face of the earth." Acts 17: 26. Which shall we believe, Paul or E. G. White? I beg leave to believe the Apostle. I must believe that the colored man is a creature of God. If he is not, why preach to him and try to save him. Oh shame on such visions! Is not the poor Negro debased low enough with chains and shackles, without depriving him of the honor of being a creature of God, a human being?


-----endquote


Besides the statement of Ellen White in print, the key evidence they present is hearsay regarding its meaning.

However, once these charges were in print, hearsay or not, it is very strange that Ellen White didn't speak up.

Uriah Smith indicates that the claim is not true. But then goes on to talk about blurred lines, etc. And James White endorsed this work of Uriah Smith.

The Visions of Mrs. E.G. White

m.egwwritings.org

-----quote-----

The visions teach, says the objector, that the negro race is not human. We deny it. They do not so teach. Mark the language: “Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.” This view was given for the purpose of illustrating the deep corruption and crime into which the race fell, even within a few years after the flood, that signal manifestation of God’s wrath against human wickedness. There was amalgamation; and the effect is still visible in certain races of men.” Mark, those excepting the animals upon whom the effects of this work are visible, are called by the vision, “men.” Now we have ever supposed that anybody that was called a man, was considered a human being. The vision speaks of all these classes as races of men; yet in the face of this plain declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are not human beings! But does any one deny the general statement contained in the extract given above? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country, etc. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarcation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion.. It is impossible, as they affirm, to tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that this was ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the boundaries of these two kingdoms? But, says the objector, Paul says that “God hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all face of the earth,” and then they add, “Which shall we believe, Paul or E. G. White?” You need not disbelieve E. G. White, in order to believe Paul; for there is no contradiction between them. Paul’s language will apply to all classes of men who have any of the original Adamic blood in their veins; and that there are any who have not this, is not taught by the visions, nor claimed by any one. But for this text to weigh anything in favor of the objector, he must take the ground that God made every particle of blood that exists in any human being. Is this so? Then God made all the scrofulous, leprous,, or syphilitic blood that courses in the worst transgressors’s veins! From any view which leads to such a blasphemous conclusion, we prefer to be excused. But what has the ancient sin of amalgamation to do with any race or people at the present time? Are they in any way responsible, or to be held accountable for it? Not at all. Has any one a right to try to use it to their prejudice? By no means. The fact is mentioned simply to show how soon men relapsed into wickedness,, and to what degree. But we are to take all races and peoples as we find them. And those who manifest sufficient powers of mind to show that they are moral and accountable beings,, are of course to be esteemed as objects of regard and philanthropic effort. We are bound to labor, so far as in our power,, for the improvement of their mental, moral, and physical condition.. Whatever race of men we may take, Bushmen, Hottentots, Patagonians, or any class of people, however low they may apparently be in the scale of humanity, their mental capabilities are in every instance the basis on which we are to work,, and by which we determine whether they are subjects of moral government or not. Then what about all this ado over the charge,, which is itself false, that the visions teach that the negro is not a human being? What does it amount to? It is simply an effort to create prejudice in the minds of the people, unworthy any one who makes any pretensions to being a Christian, or even a gentleman.

----end quote

 

[tall73]

In addition to James White endorsing the book, and 2,000 copies being available at the camp meeting Uriah Smith's response was also published with the approval of the ministering bretheren.

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18660612-V28-02.pdf

---quote--
We commence this week the publication of Answers to objections against the visions. It may be proper here to state that this manuscript was prepared before our late conference ; but its publication was withheld till it could be submitted to the ministering brethren who might then assemble, for them to decide upon its merits, and the disposition that should be made of it. It was examined by them, and received their approval, with a decision that it should be published.

 

[tall73]

The following are excerpts from a work by D.E. Robinson, a secretary, compiler, and editor for Ellen White, who also married into the White family. You can read the entire work at the link.

AMALGAMATION VERSUS EVOLUTION
By D. E. Robinson


Granting these valuable contributions to the study of the scientific
aspects of Mrs. White's statement, yet in his insertion of the word "of” to elucidate his understanding of the passage in question, he has, it seems to many, done violence to the text, and has not given to it the meaning which it seems certain was intended by the author herself. The insertion of this word, making it read "amalgamation of man and (of) beast," and interpreted to mean only that "there has been hybridizing among animals, and also among distinct types or kinds of men which the Lord desired to keep separate and distinct,"would not be doing violence to the language used perhaps, if it were not evident that the author herself did intend the reader to understand it in its most obvious meaning.

The fact is that the statement was made the basis of controversy
at the time it was made. This controversy, however, was not over the meaning of the expression, which seems not to have been questioned even by those who were defending the author, but over the scientific possibility of the "amalgamation of man and beast."

Accepting the obvious meaning of the language used, what are the
grounds for objecting to it? Very forcefully the objection is offered that no authentic, well-proved instance has been known of progeny resulting from such an unnatural union. Further than this, nothing can be known as to what might have happened near the time of the flood, when the virility of men and animals was much greater than today.

rs* White’s statement, if accepted, will solve the problems connected with the close physical resemblance between man and some of the apes,'between whom and the tailed mohkeys there are greater structural differences than be tween them and man. Any one who observes the chimpanzee, the gorilla, or the orang, would not find it difficult to believe that they have some common ancestry with the human race. And it is possible to recognize this without being forced to the conclusions of the evolutionist who must thereby deny the gospel story. As far as evidence goes, it is far more reasonable to believe that the apes are descended from man, than to regard them as his ancestors.

Just which races of men today actually contain traces of remote
animal ancestry, it is impossible to say. Mrs. White did not specify, nor has she endorsed any inferences suggested by others. Striking quotations from persons of high repute are not wanting that set forth their convictions that certain races in various parts of the world are examples of what might be expected in such a cross as is suggested by Mrs. White. But it is unprofitable in this connection to attempt any specific application. Mrs. White’s sympathies were for all peoples, and experience demonstrates that even among the lowest races of mankind there is some spark of the divine that enables them to comprehend the simple gospel story.