Adventism refuted by Orthodoxy

[thecolorsblend]

I believe Adventists hold to the doctrine of "soul sleep," which would explain why they take such exception to our praxis.

With respect to Adventists, this is one doctrine I've never been able to convince myself about no matter how many times some Adventist tells me I haven't had it explained to me properly. Their "evidence" is spurious at best and I find little historical evidence of any widespread mainstream belief in this doctrine.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Nice - but they are not in Daniel 2 or 7 or Daniel 8 which deals with more than 1260 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. The focus of the SDA church is on Bible doctrine - it is on what the Bible focuses on.

I have seen arguments to the extent that those prophecies do refer to Russia or the Turks, but I reject those arguments, as like EGW's argument regarding the 1260 years, they lack credibility. EGW could really have made a case had she dated those 1260 years from Pope St. Gregory assuming control of the Roman government until the fall of the Papal states under Giuseppe Garibaldi, but, alas...

 

[Paul Yohannan]

With respect to Adventists, this is one doctrine I've never been able to convince myself about no matter how many times some Adventist tells me I haven't had it explained to me properly. Their "evidence" is spurious at best and I find little historical evidence of any widespread mainstream belief in this doctrine.

You are of course quite right. Soul sleep is entirely novel; I do not believe that it predated the 19th century.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Yes, pivotal role----biblical prophecies are not about countries that okayed a pivotal role--they are dealing strictly with world powers. China and Japan and India had their roles too, but are not part of what is being prophesied about. It is the Catholic church that took over in power after the Roman Empire, It did so through religion. There is no comparison between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church as far as power and control over
land and governments and people goes. You're attempts at minimizing it's power are simply because it refutes your attempts at refuting us. It is blinding you to the clear facts.

"Since 313 A.D., when Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire, its power has been in near-constant growth.

The church was able to acquire land, most notably the Papal States surrounding Rome, convert pagan temples and claim relics for itself. Over 300 years, it became one of Europe’s largest landowners.

For the next thousand years, tithes and tributes flowed in from all over Europe. Non-Christians and even fellow Christians were killed and their property confiscated. For example, the Fourth Crusade and the sack of Constantinople in the early 13th century brought it gold, money and jewels."
Wealth of Roman Catholic Church impossible to calculate

To say that Russia and the Ottoman Empire were not world powers during the 13th-19th century indicates the need for a remedial study of history.

 

[thecolorsblend]

You are of course quite right. Soul sleep is entirely novel; I do not believe that it predated the 19th century.

I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.

Having said that, however, I'm not aware of any reference to "soul sleep" prior to that time. So IF it was a mainstream belief at any time, obviously that would be history's best kept secret.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Even if the "dead in Christ" were actually with Christ in heaven after death, how does anyone know when an individual is really saved or not? It's one thing to think you, yourself, are saved--
but someone else? No one but God knows the heart, no one but God decides who is saved and who is lost. No one can possibly know that their sainted aunt has gone to heaven for that sainted aunt might have been a closet serial killer, and wonderful, kindly old grandpa might have been a child molester. There is no such thing as anyone knowing who is saved or lost and therefore you don't know that you are really praying to a saint or sinner.

Ah, now this post simply suggests a soteriology quite alien to that of St. Paul. Every saint is a sinner; the only person assured to be entirely free of sin is our Lord.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.

Having said that, however, I'm not aware of any reference to "soul sleep" prior to that time. So IF it was a mainstream belief at any time, obviously that would be history's best kept secret.

Perhaps you might also agree the importance of Russia and the Ottoman Empire to 13th-19th century history, for example, the fall of Constantinople, the Russo-Swedish war and the Battle of Lepanto, to be among history's worst kept secrets.

 

[Monk Brendan]

1. "Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday "
2. "Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects"
3. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.
4. "at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point."

All of these points are false. Armenians, and Copts main worship day is Sunday.

The Anglican and Episcopal Churches are not part of Orthodoxy.

The Didascalia was not written by the 12 or the 70 Apostles. It was written in the 3rd century and was originally found in the use of Syrian heretics. If heretics are using it, it probably does not have anything to do with Orthodoxy

The Great Schism was focused on two things. The first is "filioque," which has to do with the procession of the Holy Spirit, and the second had to do with Papal Primacy, and the differences in the Eastern and Western view. But more than anything, it was a personality conflict between Cardinal Humbert, and Patriarch Michael in 1054. Sunday vs Saturday was never mentioned.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Perhaps you might also agree the importance of Russia and the Ottoman Empire to 13th-19th century history, for example, the fall of Constantinople, the Russo-Swedish war and the Battle of Lepanto, to be among history's worst kept secrets.

Funny you should mention them... because if you hadn't, I would've had to. The sheer amount of historical consensus about Sunday observance really makes mincemeat of the 7DA argument, re: Sabbath. And those territories (which are largely unaffected by "innovations" introduced by my Church) are a stronger argument for the Sunday obligation than anything I've seen the 7DA's muster so far.

To be clear, I'm open to correction on this. I simply see a virtual avalanche of data which contradicts the 7DA narrative.

 

[Monk Brendan]

well maybe taking the time to look at the actual text instead of complaining about what "pre-reformed" group believes what -- is the better thinking.

I know the texts! When I spoke of Pre-Reformed Churches, I am talking about a majority of Christians in the world! Catholics (both Roman and Eastern), Orthodox, Armenians, and so on, some of whom have never been under the "heel of Rome" so would have no reason to change to Sunday worship unless they did so on its own.

 

[Philip_B]

On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight. Acts 20:7

There is however no need for preachers to feel obliged to keep speaking till midnight IMHO!

 

[Monk Brendan]

Historic facts in their text such as -
1. "Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday "
2. "Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects"
3. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.
4. "at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point."

Okay, show me facts, taken from NON-SDA sources--preferably peer reviewed sources--that any of these things are true to fact. You cannot. And you even have problems spelling one of your "so called" sources. The correct spelling is Didascalia. You have an extra A in there.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Your avoidance of the early church fathers - Paul, Christ, etc to make your case -- noted.

"That's it" is not a doctrinal statement - as I am sure we both agree.

So? It was not meant to be a doctrinal statement. It was a very short description of one of a number of incorrect Protestant doctrines.

As far as early Church fathers--including Jesus and Paul, Jesus only used "sleep" ONCE to mean death, and that is John 11:11 “These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.” (KJV)

 

[Monk Brendan]

Where did I say these places are not in the world??? I said orthodoxy was not a world power, never said they were not in the world or even were not in a large part of the world---They did not even come close to having control of the leaders of the world.

Have you ever heard of Constantinople? It was originally the city of Byzantium, and it became the capitol of the Roman Empire in the 4th century.

Orthodoxy, as opposed to Roman Catholicism, was centered around Constantinople (today's Istanbul). Here was the Roman State, in its full flower. Yet, there are many Christian religions that come from the Apostles that were always outside of Rome, was not in Rome's influence, and still worship on Sunday. How do you explain that?

 

[Monk Brendan]

The Orthodox churches continued to honor the Bible Sabbath long after the RCC was discarding it -- and the churches in Ethiopia are pretty clear on that point.

Proof, please, from non-partisan (non-SDA) sources

 

[Monk Brendan]

More pointedly - does the Anglican church promote the idea of praying to your departed friend and either asking favors of him, praise him for something or offer to do favors for him that will help him in his afterlife?

First of all, when we pray for the dead, we are praying TO God for the well-being of our friend's soul in heaven.

We pray with saints, asking them to add their prayers to ours in terms of intercession TO God.

Most Pre-Reformation Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Syrian, and so on) DO believe that once a person dies, his spirit departs from the body, and he then follows the path that he began here on earth. If he has been a believing Christian, then his path will continue to heaven. If not, it will continue to hell.

If you don't like it, Chacun a son gout!

 

[Monk Brendan]

The question is specific to the St. Thomas Chrisians of India - and "The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath." -- you are avoiding those specific details. At this point i can quote New World Encyclopedia for those very specific details, if I simply quote "Paul Yohannan" making statements about 'the Church of the East" ---- instead of addressing the details just listed -- such tactics will not be viewed as "compelling" for any objective unbiased reader.

Proof, please, from a reliable, NON-SDA source.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It is the Catholic church that took over in power after the Roman Empire, It did so through religion. There is no comparison between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church as far as power and control over
land and governments and people goes. You're attempts at minimizing it's power are simply because it refutes your attempts at refuting us. It is blinding you to the clear facts.

Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians were the same Church until 1054.

The Orthodox in Russia DID have the authority of the State, as Orthodoxy was the STATE religion. AS it was in Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and other countries. That is over half of Europe and most of Asia. Therefore, your premise is false.

 

[mmksparbud]

To say that Russia and the Ottoman Empire were not world powers during the 13th-19th century indicates the need for a remedial study of history.

To say thst Russia, or the Ottoman Empire were more powerful than the Catholic church indicates the need for a remedial study of history.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.

Having said that, however, I'm not aware of any reference to "soul sleep" prior to that time. So IF it was a mainstream belief at any time, obviously that would be history's best kept secret.

The term "soul sleep" is not a term that I ever heard until I came to this site. So it would be no surprise to not see it anywhere, However
Joh_11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

, the concept of the word "sleep" used to indicate death is not.