Adventism refuted by Orthodoxy

[BobRyan]

Here is CCC958 958: Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them.

Which means that unlike the Adventist Church, Both Catholic AND Orthodox believe that once a person's body dies, his soul will still be alive, and that we are still able to have some influence (neither CCC nor Orthodox say how much) on the final outcome of the soul's journey after death.

Certainly it is true that the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in that "Communion with the Dead" idea - as if it were "a good thing" -- and the Adventist church does not.

But pretty much every other non-Catholic church would also agree that "Communion with the Dead" is not a good idea.

Adventists believe in the 1Thess 4 existence of the soul in the state that Paul refers to as "sleep" in 1 Thess 4 and most other churches reject it. But that does not mean that most other denominations think "Communion with the Dead" is a good thing. In fact they think it is not good.

The thing I dispute with you is the erroneous theory that when a person dies, that's it, until the great Judgment. Both Orthodox and Catholic believe that the soul/spirit lives on.

Ever since Jesus rose from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life, there has never been any disagreement on this, among any of the Pre-Reformation Churches.

Your avoidance of the early church fathers - Paul, Christ, etc to make your case -- noted.

"That's it" is not a doctrinal statement - as I am sure we both agree.

As for the description of the "DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
and the CCC statement on "Communion with the DEAD" --

well maybe taking the time to look at the actual text instead of complaining about what "pre-reformed" group believes what -- is the better thinking.

Here is the text you are not looking at.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

No, and? The topic was that the Catholic church was not a world power, which is utter baloney. No other church could even try to instigate an inquisition of that magnitude. The church most certainly did rule the world and orthodoxy never even came close, so again-- Biblical prophecies are dealing with world powers and since orthodoxy was not a world power, there was no need for them to be mentioned.

So in your mind, Russia, the former Ottoman Empire, Ethiopia, Persia, and Mesopotamia are not in "the world"? Because those lands were never ruled by Roman Catholics or subject to Roman Catholicism.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Light of the East, you do not represent Orthodoxy very well. Ariel Toll Houses are considered "orthodox" to members of the Eastern Orthodox denomination.

According to Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky Orthodox Dogmatic Theology it is dogma. That means it must be believed. I only point this out to show how corrupt "Tradition" can become.

Addendum On the question of the “Toll-Houses”

• Our war is not against flesh and blood.
• Here we approach the subject of the toll-houses.
• The signs of the Second Coming of the Lord
• The second coming of the Son of Man.
• The resurrection of the dead

There is no evidence for Ariel Toll Houses in the earliest, historical and divinely inspired writings - I refer to scripture.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

On this point, there have been no dogmatic decisions of the holy synods demanding belief in the toll houses, and I know of at least one archbishop who has been an outspoken critic of the doctrine. Since people including him are not being anathematized for this rejection, your argument that Eastern Orthodoxy demands acceptance of it is invalid.

Most of the prominent adherents of the doctrine are or were members of ROCOR. Fr. Seraphim Rose, for example, who translated Pomazansky.

Orthodox Dogmatic Theology does not furthermore represent the authoritative voice of the Church. It lacks the authority of the writings of, for example, St. John Damascus, and there are EOs who disagree with him on some issues.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The Orthodox churches continued to honor the Bible Sabbath long after the RCC was discarding it -- and the churches in Ethiopia are pretty clear on that point.


=============================
from - *Free: “Honoring of the Sabbath in the Historic Orthodox Church” booklet – Orthodox Church of the Culdees, Home of the Priory of Salem, TCAWW, and Watchman News

While the official Orthodox doctrine remains that Saturday is the Sabbath and must be kept holy, most churches have drifted to put more emphasis on Sunday. The Saturday Sabbath does however remain mentioned as a requirement within the teachings in each branch of the Orthodox faith. Very few these days have emphasis on Saturday, for example the Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday in the Christian Orthodox way, the same way it has always been kept holy and above the other days of the week. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.

This isn’t exclusive to the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Quoting numerous authorities, you will find at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point. Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects which confirm the teaching that we must abstain from work on Saturdays. This legacy was handed down from the British Orthodox Church. While the Book of Common Prayer leaves it up to the local bishops to decide which days to keep holy. This text and liturgy of the B.C.P. was kept within all the subsequent branches of the Church, even the most non-conformist and dissenter churches kept the Orthodox text of the B.C.P. from 1549 until the 1960’s in a far-reaching unity.

This publication is by an episcopi vagante who is not a legitimate bishop of either the Eastern or the Oriental Orthodox Church. The "Orthodox Church of the Culdees" is not a canonical jurisdiction and is not Orthodox.

The main holy day in the Ethiopian church is Sunday.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

It's this kind stubbornness in being wrong that seems to be a hallmark of Adventist apologetics and polemics on this website.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed so; some persist in stating something as fact even when it has been proven false.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

1. Is it your claim that Revelation was the last book of the Bible written - instead of Gospel of John?

This is the position most widely adhered to among traditionalist scholars; this is what the Fathers of the Orthodox Church taught.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The Saint Thomas Christians are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. [1][2][3][4] The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by Saint Thomas the Apostle. The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. They also believed that the Romans killed Jesus

This is inaccurate. The Nasrani were a part of the Church of the East, which always worshipped on Sunday.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Certainly it is true that the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in that "Communion with the Dead" idea - as if it were "a good thing" -- and the Adventist church does not.

But pretty much every other non-Catholic church would also agree that "Communion with the Dead" is not a good idea.

Adventists believe in the 1Thess 4 existence of the soul in the state that Paul refers to as "sleep" in 1 Thess 4 and most other churches reject it. But that does not mean that most other denominations think "Communion with the Dead" is a good thing. In fact they think it is not good.



And the Bible including the NT writers were around before your denomination. We follow "them".




Your words are the "fruits" of the spirit that guides you -- "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7.

I prefer the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Bible, and HIS teaching on prophecy that we find in 1 Corinthians 12.

For Christians - bible details matter. Name-calling on the other hand is worthless. It is the hay and stubble that is burned away for the true Bible student.

your signature claims you are "The unworthy Melkite Catholic Monk "

Your words confirm your claims.

This is not a nice thing to say to another Christian.

 

[Philip_B]

I do not understand why there would be any problem with Communion with the Dead given that in dying and rising Jesus conquered death, and the meaning and impasse of death as the full stop at the end of life has changed irrevocably, for death is now simply the gateway to immortality for those who die in Christ. We believe in One Church, not one Church for the Living and one for the dead, and in Holy Communion we feast at the table set in this world and the next.

Christ is Risen! Alleluia! and death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not a nice thing to say to another Christian.

The person referred to someone else as " a crazy woman" and then referred to himself as "the uworthy melkite monk" -

My response was that his words show the fruit of the spirit that motivates him -- that is a true statement about everyone according to Christ.

I also say that he is confirming his own claims -- something that most people would love to hear about themselves.

Christ Himself argues "by their fruits you shall know them"

 

[BobRyan]

I do not understand why there would be any problem with Communion with the Dead given that in dying and rising Jesus conquered death, and the meaning and impasse of death as the full stop at the end of life has changed irrevocably, for death is now simply the gateway to immortality for those who die in Christ.

1. But you would agree that it is irrefutable that most denominations condemn the idea of "Communion with the Dead" be it seance, necromancy or any other form of it. Yet we all argue that Christ is risen from the dead. This is irrefutable.

2. And the Bible condemns it - as we see in Isaiah 8:19

3. And even the RCC provides a good explanation of it in a Q&A in Catholic Digest that "removes all doubt".


============================

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

===============================
Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints (CCC958 : Communion with the dead.) and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:

“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!


The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!


They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
It was in behalf of the Sunday that popery first asserted its arrogant claims (see Appendix); and its first resort to the power of the state was to compel the observance of Sunday as “the Lord’s day.”

2 different events - not one instantaneous irrational leap to the other side of the fence

Why, then, are there Churches of Apostolic origin that use Sunday as the main day of worship, but they have had NO contact with Rome? For instance, the St. Thomas Christians of India

Saint Thomas Christians - New World Encyclopedia

"The Saint Thomas Christians are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. [1][2][3][4] The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by Saint Thomas the Apostle. The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. They also believed that the Romans killed Jesus"

This is inaccurate. The Nasrani were a part of the Church of the East, which always worshipped on Sunday.

The question is specific to the St. Thomas Chrisians of India - and "The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath." -- you are avoiding those specific details. At this point i can quote New World Encyclopedia for those very specific details, if I simply quote "Paul Yohannan" making statements about 'the Church of the East" ---- instead of addressing the details just listed -- such tactics will not be viewed as "compelling" for any objective unbiased reader.

I think we can both agree on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. Is it your claim that Revelation was the last book of the Bible written - instead of Gospel of John?
2. Is it your claim that the 1 Cor 12 chapter on gifts including the gift of prophecy claims that as soon as John writes revelation there is no more gift of prophecy?

This is the position most widely adhered to among traditionalist scholars; this is what the Fathers of the Orthodox Church taught.

1. Ephesians 4 say that gift continues until the 2nd coming. 1 Cor 12 does not say it will end with the writing of Revelation.
2. The Gospel of John was written after the book of Revelation.


============================

According to Papias, one of John's disciples, John later went to the city of Ephesus. He was exiled under Emperor Domitian to the island Patmos. It was there that he wrote the Book of Revelation, which is the 27th book of the New Testament. Under Nerva, John returned to Ephesus, and there composed the Gospel of John, the 4th book of the New Testament, and three Epistles, called John 1, John 2, John 3. John reportedly died at a very old age.

John the Apostle


We hold, then, as the most probable view, that John was exiled to Patmos under Nero, wrote the Apocalypse soon after Nero’s death, a.d. 68 or 69, returned to Ephesus, completed his Gospel and Epistles several (perhaps twenty) years later, and fell asleep in peace during the year of Trajan, after a.d. 98.

History of the Christian Church, Volume I: Apostolic Christianity. A.D. 1-100. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

============================================================

Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp who was the friend and pupil of St. John, said that John "for sixty years after the Ascension preached orally, till the end of Domitian's reign; and after the death of Domitian, having returned to Ephesus, he was induced to write (his Gospel) concerning the divinity of Christ, co-eternal with the Father; in which he refutes those heretics, Cerinthus and the Nicolaitans."

http://www.awmi.net/bible/joh

 

[BobRyan]

None of which happened in the Orthodox lands. There was no inquisition in Russia, Greece, Roumelia, Syria, Egypt, Armenia, Ethiopia or India.

The Orthodox churches continued to honor the Bible Sabbath long after the RCC was discarding it -- and the churches in Ethiopia are pretty clear on that point.


=============================
from - *Free: “Honoring of the Sabbath in the Historic Orthodox Church” booklet – Orthodox Church of the Culdees, Home of the Priory of Salem, TCAWW, and Watchman News

While the official Orthodox doctrine remains that Saturday is the Sabbath and must be kept holy, most churches have drifted to put more emphasis on Sunday. The Saturday Sabbath does however remain mentioned as a requirement within the teachings in each branch of the Orthodox faith. Very few these days have emphasis on Saturday, for example the Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday in the Christian Orthodox way, the same way it has always been kept holy and above the other days of the week. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.

This isn’t exclusive to the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Quoting numerous authorities, you will find at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point. Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects which confirm the teaching that we must abstain from work on Saturdays. This legacy was handed down from the British Orthodox Church. While the Book of Common Prayer leaves it up to the local bishops to decide which days to keep holy. This text and liturgy of the B.C.P. was kept within all the subsequent branches of the Church, even the most non-conformist and dissenter churches kept the Orthodox text of the B.C.P. from 1549 until the 1960’s in a far-reaching unity.

This publication is by an episcopi vagante who is not a legitimate bishop of either the Eastern or the Oriental Orthodox Church. The "Orthodox Church of the Culdees" is not a canonical jurisdiction and is not Orthodox.

The main holy day in the Ethiopian church is Sunday.

No one is arguing that the Orthodox today do not keep Sunday.

The historic details identified in the text above are "topic A with details - a" - but you response without any fact to refute them other than you don't like the source reporting the details. That sort of response worked in the dark ages - but in the light of day it smells "fishy" since it does not actually deal with any detail in the post.

 

[mmksparbud]

So in your mind, Russia, the former Ottoman Empire, Ethiopia, Persia, and Mesopotamia are not in "the world"? Because those lands were never ruled by Roman Catholics or subject to Roman Catholicism.

Where did I say these places are not in the world??? I said orthodoxy was not a world power, never said they were not in the world or even were not in a large part of the world---They did not even come close to having control of the leaders of the world. The Roman Catholic church was a political and religious power unlike orthodoxy which was religious. You can't read history and not see it. It commanded obedience from the rulers of almost every known kingdom---No kingdom has ever commanded every single country----not Babylon, not Medo-Persia, not Greece, Not Rome. Just most of the then known world. The Catholic church controlled more land and people than any of those 4 powers before. Open any history book.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Where did I say these places are not in the world??? I said orthodoxy was not a world power, never said they were not in the world or even were not in a large part of the world---They did not even come close to having control of the leaders of the world. The Roman Catholic church was a political and religious power unlike orthodoxy which was religious. You can't read history and not see it. It commanded obedience from the rulers of almost every known kingdom---No kingdom has ever commanded every single country----not Babylon, not Medo-Persia, not Greece, Not Rome. Just most of the then known world. The Catholic church controlled more land and people than any of those 4 powers before. Open any history book.

You suggested the Catholic church controlled the entire world, which would of course be inaccurate.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

2 different events - not one instantaneous irrational leap to the other side of the fence



Saint Thomas Christians - New World Encyclopedia

"The Saint Thomas Christians are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. [1][2][3][4] The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by Saint Thomas the Apostle. The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. They also believed that the Romans killed Jesus"



The question is specific to the St. Thomas Chrisians of India - and "The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath." -- you are avoiding those specific details. At this point i can quote New World Encyclopedia for those very specific details, if I simply quote "Paul Yohannan" making statements about 'the Church of the East" ---- instead of addressing the details just listed -- such tactics will not be viewed as "compelling" for any objective unbiased reader.

I think we can both agree on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

The New World Encyclopedia, if one can call it an encyclopedia, is simply wrong.

For an actual scholarly history of the Church in India, which will, as one might come to expect, correspond with my statements, try the Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity.

I am quotable by the way; everything I say is the fruit of careful research, and I am in this respect among the relatively few members of CF.com who can be safely cited in the course of an argument, particularly with regards to Eastern Christianity.

Thus, now that we have dealt with the NWE's pure poppycock regarding the Indian Orthodox, we can proceed:

The Orthodox churches continued to honor the Bible Sabbath long after the RCC was discarding it -- and the churches in Ethiopia are pretty clear on that point.


=============================
from - *Free: “Honoring of the Sabbath in the Historic Orthodox Church” booklet – Orthodox Church of the Culdees, Home of the Priory of Salem, TCAWW, and Watchman News

While the official Orthodox doctrine remains that Saturday is the Sabbath and must be kept holy, most churches have drifted to put more emphasis on Sunday. The Saturday Sabbath does however remain mentioned as a requirement within the teachings in each branch of the Orthodox faith. Very few these days have emphasis on Saturday, for example the Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday in the Christian Orthodox way, the same way it has always been kept holy and above the other days of the week. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.

This isn’t exclusive to the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Quoting numerous authorities, you will find at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point. Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects which confirm the teaching that we must abstain from work on Saturdays. This legacy was handed down from the British Orthodox Church. While the Book of Common Prayer leaves it up to the local bishops to decide which days to keep holy. This text and liturgy of the B.C.P. was kept within all the subsequent branches of the Church, even the most non-conformist and dissenter churches kept the Orthodox text of the B.C.P. from 1549 until the 1960’s in a far-reaching unity.



No one is arguing that the Orthodox today do not keep Sunday.

The historic details identified in the text above are "topic A with details - a" - but you response without any fact to refute them other than you don't like the source reporting the details. That sort of response worked in the dark ages - but in the light of day it smells "fishy" since it does not actually deal with any detail in the post.

Once again, you quote the same unreliable source. The "Orthodox Church of the Culdees" is not canonical; the author of the free booklets speaks with roughly the same scholarly authority as a fry cook at your local fast food outlet. No canonical Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church regards him as a bishop or accepts what he has to say.

Neither, by the way, does scholarship: There is precisely no record of Sabbatarianism within the Orthodox church, and we have Sts. Irenaeus of Lyons, Epiphanius of Salamis and other early heresiologists sharply criticizing the practice as it was adhered to by the Ebionites.

I suggest you discard these nonsense "free pamphlets," which are not worth the paper they aren't printed on, and instead refer to a legitimate study of the worship of the Orthodox. For example, the Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship, which is, I would hope, needless to say, of rather greater scholarly providence.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

But you would agree that it is irrefutable that most denominations condemn the idea of "Communion with the Dead" be it seance, necromancy or any other form of it. Yet we all argue that Christ is risen from the dead. This is irrefutable.

There is a bit of a "long tail" effect with denominations.

Collectively, the Orthodox and Catholics represent the second largest and largest denominations, and together with high church Anglicans like my colleage Phillip, would account for the majority of Christians.

What is more, the "Communion with the dead" is neither seance nor necromancy, and to liken it to such is deeply offensive.

 

[mmksparbud]

You suggested the Catholic church controlled the entire world, which would of course be inaccurate.

Babylon controlled the world, so did the Meds, the Greeks and the Romans, just not every inch if it. Each power controlled more and more of it. The question was why was the orthodox church not bought into the prophecies, because they were never a world power.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not understand why there would be any problem with Communion with the Dead given that in dying and rising Jesus conquered death, and the meaning and impasse of death as the full stop at the end of life has changed irrevocably, for death is now simply the gateway to immortality for those who die in Christ.

1. But you would agree that it is irrefutable that most denominations condemn the idea of "Communion with the Dead" be it seance, necromancy or any other form of it. Yet we all argue that Christ is risen from the dead. This is irrefutable.

2. And the Bible condemns it - as we see in Isaiah 8:19

3. And even the RCC provides a good explanation of it in a Q&A in Catholic Digest that "removes all doubt".


============================

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

===============================
Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints (CCC958 : Communion with the dead.) and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:

“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!


The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!


They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

There is a bit of a "long tail" effect with denominations.
Collectively, the Orthodox and Catholics represent the second largest and largest denominations

And Christianity Today listed the Seventh-day Adventist church as the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world last year -
And the Jews were much larger than all the Christian church in the first century

This topic is not about which group has the most members. The point is that most denominations do not engage in "Communion with the Dead" and we both know it. So it cannot be cast as "Just SDAs" vs Orthodux.

, and together with high church Anglicans like my colleage Phillip

Do Anglicans claim to pray to the dead?? Maybe your colleague Phillip and clarify that for us.

What is more, the "Communion with the dead" is neither seance nor necromancy, and to liken it to such is deeply offensive.

Aside from "proof by taking offense" what is your factual argument for the conclusion that communion with the dead is not necromancy?? Given that most denominations claim that Communion with the Dead is against the Bible - what argument would you make that even so they should not view it as necromancy? Just looking for facts not emotions.

Necromancy is "defined" as "the supposed practice of communicating with the dead" -- your own doctrine is "Communion with the Dead" and the idea is to pray to them.

in Christ,

Bob