Adventism refuted by Orthodoxy

[Paul Yohannan]

questions are to the point -- if you answer them - then the discussion moves forward. It does no good to simply talk past each other.

Then post a numbered list of concise questions, and I will address all of them. As it stands I have no idea what your earlier post was on about.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

According to "your" encyclopedia, maybe.

Nasrani Foundation, an organisation of Mar Thoma Nasranis has developed a dynamic Calendar based on the liturgical seasons of Syro-Malabar Church. The calendar is a handy tool for those who want to organize their life according to the liturgical seasons of the Church. The calendar contains almost all the information on the liturgical year of the Syro-Malabar Church. The calendar also provides instant access to daily Bible verses and short articles on important feasts of the Syro-Malabar Church. Pre-recorded Bible verses (from Peshitta Bible) and biblical reflections written by well-known theologians on Sundays and feast days are of most help to the faithful. Moreover, one can opt for receiving email alerts based on the calendar. Using this calendar, Syro-Malabar faithful can keep themselves updated with the liturgical life cycle of the Church. (from Wikipedia)

I could not find a calendar from 600 A.D. that showed the worship days of the Syro-Malabar (and to some extent all of the East Syria Churches) However, I did find a calendar of the Weeks of Annunciation. Note, all of the dates are for Sunday worship and not Saturday. Non-Sunday worship is shown in Italics

Weeks of Annunciation (Subara)
It is a season of Good News, viz., the Season of the Annunciation of Salvation.

November 30, 2014 First Sunday
December 1, 2014 25-day Fast begins
December 6, 2014 Shliha Mar Andreos

December 7, 2014 Second Sunday
December 8, 2014 Immaculate Conception of Blessed Virgin Mary

December 14, 2014 Third Sunday
December 18, 2014 Miracle of St. Thomas Cross

December 21, 2014 Fourth Sunday
December 25, 2014 Nativity of Isho
December 27, 2014 Shliha Mar Yohannan

December 28, 2014 Fifth Sunday Holy Infants
January 1, 2015 Name Iso
January 2, 2015 Mary, Mother of Jesus

Please note that there is only one day of worship on Saturday, and that is because it is a fixed date Feast.

Note the Syro-Malabar church is just one of several Nasrani jurisdictions. You also have us (Jacobites), the other Orthodox jurisdiction, Thoyizoor, the Mar Thoma semi-Anglicans, the Assyrians, and the Malankara Catholics, among others.

 

[BobRyan]

Note the Syro-Malabar church is just one of several Nasrani jurisdictions. You also have us (Jacobites), the other Orthodox jurisdiction, Thoyizoor, the Mar Thoma semi-Anglicans, the Assyrians, and the Malankara Catholics, among others.

But you all claim the Pope is the head of your church? Oh no wait! you are all separate denominations each with its own head-of-church governing body - right?

 

[BobRyan]

Saint Thomas Christians - New World Encyclopedia

"The Saint Thomas Christians are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. [1][2][3][4] The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by Saint Thomas the Apostle. The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. They also believed that the Romans killed Jesus"
============== end quote

The question is specific to the St. Thomas Chrisians of India - and "The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath." -- you are avoiding those specific details. At this point i can quote New World Encyclopedia for those very specific details, if I simply quote "Paul Yohannan" making statements about 'the Church of the East" ---- instead of addressing the details just listed -- such tactics will not be viewed as "compelling" for any objective unbiased reader.
...

As for your initiative in bringing up "St. Thomas Christians of India" I think we have to conclude that they were not doing what you proposed when it comes to the Bible Sabbath -- according to the Encyclopedia. So then not quoting "me" or "you" - but using an outside source.

Where the key detail is the weekly Sabbath observance -- without any point or objection at all stated for annual holy days.

And in apparent response to that post of mine - we get this post dealing exclusively with annual celebrations

According to "your" encyclopedia, maybe.

Nasrani Foundation, an organisation of Mar Thoma Nasranis has developed a dynamic Calendar based on the liturgical seasons of Syro-Malabar Church. The calendar is a handy tool for those who want to organize their life according to the liturgical seasons of the Church. The calendar contains almost all the information on the liturgical year of the Syro-Malabar Church. The calendar also provides instant access to daily Bible verses and short articles on important feasts of the Syro-Malabar Church. Pre-recorded Bible verses (from Peshitta Bible) and biblical reflections written by well-known theologians on Sundays and feast days are of most help to the faithful. Moreover, one can opt for receiving email alerts based on the calendar. Using this calendar, Syro-Malabar faithful can keep themselves updated with the liturgical life cycle of the Church. (from Wikipedia)

I could not find a calendar from 600 A.D. that showed the worship days of the Syro-Malabar (and to some extent all of the East Syria Churches) However, I did find a calendar of the Weeks of Annunciation. Note, all of the dates are for Sunday worship and not Saturday. Non-Sunday worship is shown in Italics

Weeks of Annunciation (Subara)
It is a season of Good News, viz., the Season of the Annunciation of Salvation.

November 30, 2014 First Sunday
December 1, 2014 25-day Fast begins
December 6, 2014 Shliha Mar Andreos

December 7, 2014 Second Sunday
December 8, 2014 Immaculate Conception of Blessed Virgin Mary

December 14, 2014 Third Sunday
December 18, 2014 Miracle of St. Thomas Cross

December 21, 2014 Fourth Sunday
December 25, 2014 Nativity of Isho
December 27, 2014 Shliha Mar Yohannan

December 28, 2014 Fifth Sunday Holy Infants
January 1, 2015 Name Iso
January 2, 2015 Mary, Mother of Jesus

Please note that there is only one day of worship on Saturday, and that is because it is a fixed date Feast.

My post was on subject "A" - the weekly Sabbath - and your post appears to be on subject "B" -- annual holy days.

Did you miss something?

 

[BobRyan]

Back to a key point - not responded to you in the flurry of posts yet --

The Protestants were not protesting most of what SDAs protest.

The "protesting Catholics" -- such as Wycliffe, Jerome, Huss, Luther, Calvin were ... "Catholics" demanding that their own church get back to Bible basics - NT church basics, ... testing all doctrine an tradition against the Bible. SDAs do insist on sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition. But we do not do it from "within" the Catholic church as the early "protesting Catholics" were doing it.

The "protesting Catholics" were choosing the Bible over veneration of saints, purgatory, the immaculate conception, the sale indulgences, the claims to authority that the Pope was making at the time.

SDAs also object to CCC958 "Communion with the DEAD" and Purgatory , the immaculate conception, the sale of indulgencesm, the entire system of indulgences, the claims to authority that the Pope was making etc.

We also oppose the formal earthly priesthood, bowing down before images in church and promising to serve and venerate those they represent and many other things of that sort.

We prefer the sola scriptura model of Mark 7:61-3 and Acts 17:11

And of course there is the American form of the Protest including Roger Williams' focus on the separation of church and state in the form of granting religious liberty. Freedom to worship God according to the dictates of the conscience.

The SDA objection is not focused primarily on the corruption of Rome, but rather on various doctrines shared by most Protestants.

Certainly it is true that the SDA set of doctrines do not just focus on opposing errors unique to the RCC They include correction of errors specific to the RCC alone - but also the correction of errors shared by some of her daughter churches.

Now a purist, puritanical form of Calvinism, which is basically what Calvin practiced in Geneva, is almost like Adventism with Sunday worship.

SDA doctrine rejects Calvinism

So I cannot criticize Calvinism for ignoring Orthodoxy, whereas Adventism appears to do so.

consider this

There is a somewhat me-centered view that other religions arise just because they don't like yours -- they simply get up on the wrong side of the bed and say "hey -- today we don't like Methodists... or Baptists, ... or this particular Orthodox church .... or that particular Catholic church".

In that somewhat mythical world you could argue for "someone else not to like" and give some reasons.

But 'in reality" most protestant groups came into being based on "sola scriptura" reasons - where this or that doctrine is found to be Bible based and then it is also found that the Bible specifically identifies key players in history that promote truth - or promote persecution and error.

So it is not at all of the form "hey we woke up today really miffed about such-and-such a denomination".

Questions that are apparent from the details above.

1. In that post I show a number of Catholic doctrines that both Protestants and Seventh-day Adventists would oppose - so how then do you sustain the position that the SDA position does not identify doctrinal protest -- of the same doctrines being protested by Protestants as you seem to claim?

2. The point is made in that post that the SDA position is not some arbitrary "choose to identify the RCC as one of the key players in Daniel 7, 8 and Rev 12, 13 and 17 -- instead of the one of the Orthodox branches" - it was not an arbitrary selection - but rather it is a matter of what Word of God selects. Just as Noah did not "select water instead of fire" as the world-ending event. So how then do you make your case without a single reference to the Bible argument that is being used to make the case for the RCC in the first place?

3. Where exactly would you 'insert some faction of the Orthodox church' in Daniel 7, 8, Rev 12, 13, 17 -- so as to replace the RCC with some faction of the Orthodox church?

Then post a numbered list of concise questions, and I will address all of them. As it stands I have no idea what your earlier post was on about.

Ok - that is my list.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Questions that are apparent from the details above.

Tres bien.

1. In that post I show a number of Catholic doctrines that both Protestants and Seventh-day Adventists would oppose - so how then do you sustain the position that the SDA position does not identify doctrinal protest -- of the same doctrines being protested by Protestants as you seem to claim?

It depends on the Protestants.

2. The point is made in that post that the SDA position is not some arbitrary "choose to identify the RCC as one of the key players in Daniel 7, 8 and Rev 12, 13 and 17 -- instead of the one of the Orthodox branches" - it was not an arbitrary selection - but rather it is a matter of what Word of God selects. Just as Noah did not "select water instead of fire" as the world-ending event. So how then do you make your case without a single reference to the Bible argument that is being used to make the case for the RCC in the first place?

Because the Biblical argument is non-obvious and comes across as arbitrary and capricious.

3. Where exactly would you 'insert some faction of the Orthodox church' in Daniel 7, 8, Rev 12, 13, 17 -- so as to replace the RCC with some faction of the Orthodox church?

Ok - that is my list.

I wouldn't, because the prophecies apply neither to the RCC nor the Orthodox.

 

[BobRyan]

Tres bien.

It depends on the Protestants.

Because the Biblical argument is non-obvious and comes across as arbitrary and capricious.

I wouldn't, because the prophecies apply neither to the RCC nor the Orthodox.

so then you really don't have any argument at all (other than your preference) once you decide that you cannot challenge the existing evidence from the Bible for the RCC that has been used for centuries by Protestants, and apparently you don't even identify any Protestant groups that did not protest the doctrines I listed.

What is left for your thread to support on your side of that issue??

 

[Paul Yohannan]

so then you really don't have any argument at all (other than your preference) once you decide that you cannot challenge the existing evidence from the Bible for the RCC that has been used for centuries by Protestants, and apparently you don't even identify any Protestant groups that did not protest the doctrines I listed.

This is of course inaccurate; there is no Biblical support for the complaints against the RCC, and what is more the Protestant doctrines in question are not at issue.

What is glaring, which confirms my point in the OP, is that you are unable to debate this issue on releavant points relating to the Orthodox. Instead we are subjected to more of the usual false Protestant vs. Catholicism dichotomy. SDA theology simply fails to take into account the existence of the Orthodox let alone the fact that on all aspects of RC theology, the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics in opposition to Adventism.

On that note I would like to propose a toast to His Beatitude Theodore II, Pope of Alexandria and All Africa, the 13th Apostle, and Judge of the Universe. (yes, that is his official title)

 

[BobRyan]

This is of course inaccurate; there is no Biblical support for the complaints against the RCC

That is an interesting preference and of course you have free will and can choose whatever preference you like - but apparently you have ignored the entire body of evidence that the protesting catholic scholars such as Wycliffe, Huss, Jerome, Luther etc had researched.

You have free will - you can choose that option

, and what is more the Protestant doctrines in question are not at issue.

As the post shows - it is you that bring up Protestant doctrines - what they are protesting and the wild speculation that SDA are not protesting those things.

The point remains.

Details matter --- still.

What is glaring, which confirms my point in the OP, is that you are unable to debate this issue on releavant points relating to the Orthodox.

That is nonsense -- since by your own admission you are not prepared to even make a case that the Orthodox should be substituted in -- in places where the Bible points to some other denomination instead of a given sect of the Orthodox church. So again you are simply using your "preference as proof" model.

Instead we are subjected to more of the usual false Protestant vs. Catholicism dichotomy.

Another factless accusation if in fact you are now trying to argue that the Protestants were not opposing any given Catholic doctrine. You don't even attempt the historic facts and arguments used by the protesting Catholics to either disprove them or argue that they did not "exist".


Like the protesting Catholic scholars - the entire SDA argument regarding whatever entity the Bible is identifying is to focus on what the Bible says that they teach and what the Bible says that they do in the course of history. The combination of both will identify the entity the Bible is addressing. You seem to have no interest in looking at either one so where is the issue?

Please be serious.

SDA theology simply fails to take into account the existence of the Orthodox

Christian churches in China existed, and in Japan existed, and Ethiopia etc.. The argument is not that the Roman Catholic Church or the so-called Holy Roman Empire are the only places where Christianity existed.

As we all know who actually looked at the details in the Protestant and SDA positions.

let alone the fact that on all aspects of RC theology, the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics in opposition to Adventism.

Communism is even more extreme --

In all the details you are ignoring so far - you fail to take the basic list of "corrections" that were being promoted by both the protesting Catholic scholars and also the Protestant denominations that followed ... and then show that some sect of the Orthodox schism from the Western Church is even more extreme on those points.

In fact it is debatable if the Orthodox even teach the Immaculate Conception or the sale of indulgences or the use of images in worship or "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" ... or any of the errors identified in the list I already provided.

On that note I would like to propose a toast to His Beatitude Theodore II, Pope of Alexandria and All Africa, the 13th Apostle, and Judge of the Universe. (yes, that is his official title)

Well you win on having extreme error in that case - but the fact that this is not at all a well documented and referenced issue in actual church history - leaves it in the realm of obscurity.

It is pretty hard to find Protestants or Catholics referencing someone as "judge of the universe" other than God Himself - let alone opposing it.

What is more - you could claim Orthodox church abuses giving birth to Communism in Russia. But that still is not a topic mentioned in the Bible.

Out of curiosity - is there any place in the world where Orthodox Christians are persecuted by other Christian groups - the way the Orthodox have persecuted opposing Christian groups in history?

A great many errors "exist on the planet" - but the SDA and Protestant argument is - what focus does the Bible give us? What key events in history does the Bible focus our attention on?

A "detail" you have refused to look at each time it is mentioned.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

In fact it is debatable if the Orthodox even teach the Immaculate Conception or the sale of indulgences or the use of images in worship or "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" ... or any of the errors identified in the list I already provided.

Whereas we do not have indulgences or the immaculate conception (and by the way, indulgences havent been "sold" since the 16th century), we do believe that the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of our Lord. Regarding the use of images in the Church we are rather more intense about this than the Catholics.

 

[BobRyan]

Whereas we do not have indulgences or the immaculate conception (and by the way, indulgences havent been "sold" since the 16th century), we do believe that the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of our Lord.

If you don't have indulgences -- how in the world are you getting out of Purgatory?? Oh wait! you don't have Purgatory either, which means you also do not have the "bank of excess suffering" that the church has the keys to - and can write checks against - to have that excess suffering applied to the cases of your departed loved ones.

I think Lutherans have some similar belief when it comes to the Eucharist.

But Catholics are specific in "confecting the body, blood, SOUL AND DIVINITY" of Christ in the Eucharist - and claiming that such 'powers' do not get removed from the priest even if he is excommunicated for heresy. I think you are hard pressed to find such a "confecting the body, blood, SOUL AND DIVINITY" statement among the Orthodox sects nor can you find them claiming that their priests " retain the powers " to do that even when excommunicated by the church.

What you keep claiming for the Orthodox is much closer to the Lutherans than what we see claimed by the RCC.

Regarding the use of images in the Church we are rather more intense about this than the Catholics.

That is funny because when I went to an Orthodox church I found paintings but not one single image of Mary or of Joseph or of Peter or of... any saints. Just pictures/paintings.

Do you also bow down before those paintings in worship service and promise to serve those they represent??

 

[mmksparbud]

SDA theology simply fails to take into account the existence of the Orthodox let alone the fact that on all aspects of RC theology, the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics in opposition to Adventism.

You still have not explained why we should have to take into account the existence of the Orthodox, or that the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics on opposition to Adventism. We've made no comments about taking into account the Buddhists, the Hindus, or the Muslims---why would we have to??

 

[Philip_B]

You still have not explained why we should have to take into account the existence of the Orthodox,

I have no place to but into this conversation, however I would hope that you might find a more charitable way to express what it is you are trying to say, because at the moment it reads as if you think the Orthodox are of no account. I would regard that as sad beyond belief.

John 17:10-11
All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.​

As children of grace it behoves us to exhibit some as well.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have no place to but into this conversation, however I would hope that you might find a more charitable way to express what it is you are trying to say, because at the moment it reads as if you think the Orthodox are of no account. I would regard that as sad beyond belief.

John 17:10-11
All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.​

As children of grace it behoves us to exhibit some as well.

I didn't say they are of no account!!!! I was responding to this

SDA theology simply fails to take into account the existence of the Orthodox let alone the fact that on all aspects of RC theology, the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics in opposition to Adventism.

There are biblical prophecies that point to the Catholic church and no other and it seems that some people are asking why the other churches are mentioned, we didn't make up the concept of the world political and religious powers and who is mentioned and who isn't---if the biblical passages had all pointed to the Orthodox, then it would be them, but they don't. Now, if others think they don't point to the Catholic church, it's their right to disagree, but to ask why not some other church seems odd when none of the passages even hint at any other power. And it was the Catholics themselves that first mentioned it anyway. We just agreed with them.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

If you don't have indulgences -- how in the world are you getting out of Purgatory?? Oh wait! you don't have Purgatory either, which means you also do not have the "bank of excess suffering" that the church has the keys to - and can write checks against - to have that excess suffering applied to the cases of your departed loved ones.

No, we dont have Purgatory; we rather have aerial toll houses and/or the amelioration of suffering of those in Hell.

Now I consider these doctrines more extreme than Purgatory. Purgatory always struck me as Rome trying to deliver an eschatology less frightening.

 

[BobRyan]

No, we dont have Purgatory; we rather have aerial toll houses and/or the amelioration of suffering of those in Hell.

aerial? seriously?

Now I consider these doctrines more extreme than Purgatory.

indeed "aerial toll houses" but once you leave the Bible out of the discussion purgatory stories are pretty much the same as 'aeria' toll houses. I am sure Buddhists have some pretty odd ideas as well. In any case your claim that they are pretty extreme - cannot be refuted.

As I said - neither Luther or other Protestant churches or Seventh-day Adventists have ever argued that the only errors that exist - are in the RCC. I think you and I would both agree there.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Do you "hate Jewish synagogues" just because you are not a Jew or don't choose to believe everything they believe?

No, I do not hate Jews or their worship. I love the Jews. Besides, I have too many friends that ARE Jewish. My Grandmother was Jewish. To hate Jews would be to hit myself in the face!

 

[BobRyan]

You still have not explained why we should have to take into account the existence of the Orthodox, or that the Orthodox are more extreme than the Catholics on opposition to Adventism. We've made no comments about taking into account the Buddhists, the Hindus, or the Muslims---why would we have to??

indeed there is no such doctrine as "The RCC is the only place that you might find a doctrinal error" in any Protestant claims made about the RCC.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

aerial? seriously?



indeed "aerial toll houses" but once you leave the Bible out of the discussion purgatory stories are pretty much the same as 'aeria' toll houses. I am sure Buddhists have some pretty odd ideas as well.

As I said - neither Luther or other Protestant churches or Seventh-day Adventists have ever argued that the only errors that exist - are in the RCC. I think you and I would both agree there.

Interestingly there is no record of Luther ever criticizing the Orthodox. Indeed some of his followers when they went to contact Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremias II were dumbfounded when His All Holiness did not agree with their novel doctrines.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

indeed there is no such doctrine as "The RCC is the only place that you might find a doctrinal error" in any Protestant claims made about the RCC.

And I did not say there was. Rather, that Advenfist material does not take into account the more extreme positions of Orthodoxy suggests that EGW was either unaware of us or assumed us to be Roman Catholic.