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With respect to Adventists, this is one doctrine I've never been able to convince myself about no matter how many times some Adventist tells me I haven't had it explained to me properly. Their "evidence" is spurious at best and I find little historical evidence of any widespread mainstream belief in this doctrine.I believe Adventists hold to the doctrine of "soul sleep," which would explain why they take such exception to our praxis.
Nice - but they are not in Daniel 2 or 7 or Daniel 8 which deals with more than 1260 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. The focus of the SDA church is on Bible doctrine - it is on what the Bible focuses on.
With respect to Adventists, this is one doctrine I've never been able to convince myself about no matter how many times some Adventist tells me I haven't had it explained to me properly. Their "evidence" is spurious at best and I find little historical evidence of any widespread mainstream belief in this doctrine.
Yes, pivotal role----biblical prophecies are not about countries that okayed a pivotal role--they are dealing strictly with world powers. China and Japan and India had their roles too, but are not part of what is being prophesied about. It is the Catholic church that took over in power after the Roman Empire, It did so through religion. There is no comparison between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church as far as power and control over
land and governments and people goes. You're attempts at minimizing it's power are simply because it refutes your attempts at refuting us. It is blinding you to the clear facts.
"Since 313 A.D., when Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire, its power has been in near-constant growth.
The church was able to acquire land, most notably the Papal States surrounding Rome, convert pagan temples and claim relics for itself. Over 300 years, it became one of Europe’s largest landowners.
For the next thousand years, tithes and tributes flowed in from all over Europe. Non-Christians and even fellow Christians were killed and their property confiscated. For example, the Fourth Crusade and the sack of Constantinople in the early 13th century brought it gold, money and jewels."
Wealth of Roman Catholic Church impossible to calculate
I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.You are of course quite right. Soul sleep is entirely novel; I do not believe that it predated the 19th century.
Even if the "dead in Christ" were actually with Christ in heaven after death, how does anyone know when an individual is really saved or not? It's one thing to think you, yourself, are saved--
but someone else? No one but God knows the heart, no one but God decides who is saved and who is lost. No one can possibly know that their sainted aunt has gone to heaven for that sainted aunt might have been a closet serial killer, and wonderful, kindly old grandpa might have been a child molester. There is no such thing as anyone knowing who is saved or lost and therefore you don't know that you are really praying to a saint or sinner.
I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.
Having said that, however, I'm not aware of any reference to "soul sleep" prior to that time. So IF it was a mainstream belief at any time, obviously that would be history's best kept secret.
1. "Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday "
2. "Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects"
3. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.
4. "at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point."
Funny you should mention them... because if you hadn't, I would've had to. The sheer amount of historical consensus about Sunday observance really makes mincemeat of the 7DA argument, re: Sabbath. And those territories (which are largely unaffected by "innovations" introduced by my Church) are a stronger argument for the Sunday obligation than anything I've seen the 7DA's muster so far.Perhaps you might also agree the importance of Russia and the Ottoman Empire to 13th-19th century history, for example, the fall of Constantinople, the Russo-Swedish war and the Battle of Lepanto, to be among history's worst kept secrets.
well maybe taking the time to look at the actual text instead of complaining about what "pre-reformed" group believes what -- is the better thinking.
Historic facts in their text such as -
1. "Armenians and Copts in Jerusalem, the Celtic and Gothian churches. These still keep Saturday "
2. "Still today, the Orthodox texts of the Anglican and Episcopal Church retain a weekly recital of the Saturday Collects"
3. The Apostles’ Didascalaia that is followed as canonical by several branches of the church today prescribes the keeping of Saturday above Sunday in fine detail.
4. "at the heart of the Great Schism breakaway of the Western church, was this Sabbath point."
Your avoidance of the early church fathers - Paul, Christ, etc to make your case -- noted.
"That's it" is not a doctrinal statement - as I am sure we both agree.
Where did I say these places are not in the world??? I said orthodoxy was not a world power, never said they were not in the world or even were not in a large part of the world---They did not even come close to having control of the leaders of the world.
The Orthodox churches continued to honor the Bible Sabbath long after the RCC was discarding it -- and the churches in Ethiopia are pretty clear on that point.
More pointedly - does the Anglican church promote the idea of praying to your departed friend and either asking favors of him, praise him for something or offer to do favors for him that will help him in his afterlife?
The question is specific to the St. Thomas Chrisians of India - and "The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath." -- you are avoiding those specific details. At this point i can quote New World Encyclopedia for those very specific details, if I simply quote "Paul Yohannan" making statements about 'the Church of the East" ---- instead of addressing the details just listed -- such tactics will not be viewed as "compelling" for any objective unbiased reader.
It is the Catholic church that took over in power after the Roman Empire, It did so through religion. There is no comparison between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church as far as power and control over
land and governments and people goes. You're attempts at minimizing it's power are simply because it refutes your attempts at refuting us. It is blinding you to the clear facts.
To say that Russia and the Ottoman Empire were not world powers during the 13th-19th century indicates the need for a remedial study of history.
I'll defer to you on that. I try to avoid claims like that because maybe I've just missed it in the historical record. I'm only human, after all. Exceptionally good looking, perhaps, but still only human.
Having said that, however, I'm not aware of any reference to "soul sleep" prior to that time. So IF it was a mainstream belief at any time, obviously that would be history's best kept secret.
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