Adolf Hitler - The World's Most Infamous Creationist

[dad]

In general, hearing voices with no one present in the flesh, is a cause for concern.

Your shrink better get busy!

 

[quatona]

I'm diverting the topic a bit here:

I've never understood why atheists and other non-religious people often say that if God was truly loving and forgiving, He would allow them into heaven because they are "good" people.

Then let me help you understand it.

I haven't put "good" people in quotation marks because I think being an atheist automatically makes you bad. I've put it in quotation marks because the vast majority of atheists and non-religious people I've spoken to don't actually believe in objective morality - yet when they argue that they should be allowed into heaven, regardless of whether or not they believe in God, they speak as though goodness were something that exists independant of human thought, something we can measure, something tangible. All of a sudden goodness becomes something objective again. They are "good", no matter what anyone else (including God Himself) thinks of them.

That´s neither what the poster said nor what he necessarily implied. You simply assumed he did.
Not mentioning the standards you apply when saying "good" and not mentioning whose standards these are doesn´t allow for the conclusion that you are appealing to supposedly objective standards (independent of human thought). E.g. it could be your own personal standards, e.g. it could be the standards you interprete the bible (or whatever supposedly holy book) to communicate as god´s standards. An atheist can do that just as a Christian can.

If you lived in a different time, a different place, would you have been against slavery, misogyny and genocide?)

For some reason you´ve picked three things that biblegod isn´t downright disapproving of, in my understanding of the bible. Thus, if using the word "good" requires me to leave aside my personal standards and instead to appeal to supposedly objective standards, being a slave owner, a misogynist or the committer of genocide in a different time and place would not necessarily make me a bad person.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Keep telling yourself that and you will someday see who goes. Are you willing to take the consequences when you find yourself in front of God? IN GOD's eyes are you moral? Are you a good person? Because He is the judge.

Of course I'm ready. As I said, I've led a moral life.

No one truly knows God's nature. If they truly knew, truly believed, and heaven is what is claimed, they would be trying to get to heaven asap.

 

[AV1611VET]

Of course I'm ready. As I said, I've led a moral life.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[Ginger123]

No one truly knows God's nature. If they truly knew, truly believed, and heaven is what is claimed, they would be trying to get to heaven asap.

The people who ran religion in the early years had also thought of this that's why they brought in the no suicide clause,
killing yourself was made a sin and even getting others to kill you was also a sin, they just about thought of everything,
they knew that keeping the people afraid was good because frightened people will do as they are told,
the ones who would not do as they were told were made outcasts or just had unfortunate accidents.

 

[AV1611VET]

frightened people will do as they are told

I thought Mother Nature programmed her offspring to "fight or flight" if they got scared?

Remember Columbine?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Not mentioning the standards you apply when saying "good" and not mentioning whose standards these are doesn´t allow for the conclusion that you are appealing to supposedly objective standards (independent of human thought). E.g. it could be your own personal standards, e.g. it could be the standards you interprete the bible (or whatever supposedly holy book) to communicate as god´s standards. An atheist can do that just as a Christian can.

I'm not sure you've fully understood what "objective" means in this context. Personal standards are not independant of human thought - the very fact that they are "personal" standards means, by definition, that they are subjective and not objective e.g. they take place in a person's mind rather than in reality.

As for the Bible - if we assume that there is no God, and the Bible was simply a collection of books written by ordinary human beings, then that too is subjective. It means we are simply following the personal opinions of writers who lived thousands of years ago.

For some reason you´ve picked three things that biblegod isn´t downright disapproving of, in my understanding of the bible.

I chose those three (slavery, genocide and misogyny) because those are the three examples ThinkForYourself mentioned specifically.

 

[AV1611VET]

ThinkForYourself

ThinkForYourself suggests we do everything but think for ourselves.

I suspect "thinkforyourself" means: think like her.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Keep telling yourself that and you will someday see who goes. Are you willing to take the consequences when you find yourself in front of God? IN GOD's eyes are you moral? Are you a good person? Because He is the judge.

Of course I'm ready. As I said, I've led a moral life.

No one truly knows God's nature. If they truly knew, truly believed, and heaven is what is claimed, they would be trying to get to heaven asap.

If no-one truly knows God's nature then how can you be so sure you've lead a moral life - moral enough for God to allow you into Heaven?

 

[mathetes123]

The people who ran religion in the early years had also thought of this that's why they brought in the no suicide clause,
killing yourself was made a sin and even getting others to kill you was also a sin, they just about thought of everything,
they knew that keeping the people afraid was good because frightened people will do as they are told,
the ones who would not do as they were told were made outcasts or just had unfortunate accidents.

You have a creative imagination

 

[mathetes123]

To answer the question in your first paragraph, it is because some things are so socially unacceptable, they are ingrained in you when you are young (most likely by your parents) as being unacceptable. Also, the impact of not being socially outcast is huge and impacts everyone, unless they are a sociopath.

So the answer is "they just are"?

 

[Ginger123]

The people who ran religion in the early years had also thought of this that's why they brought in the no suicide clause,
killing yourself was made a sin and even getting others to kill you was also a sin, they just about thought of everything,
they knew that keeping the people afraid was good because frightened people will do as they are told,
the ones who would not do as they were told were made outcasts or just had unfortunate accidents.

You have a creative imagination

Which part do you think was creative or which part do you think is not true?

 

[mathetes123]

Which part do you think was creative or which part do you think is not true?

You have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible other than their own written record in the Bible and the writings of contemporaries. The record show they wrote as they were inspired by God, that the Bible is "God Breathed".

 

[ThinkForYourself]

You have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible other than their own written record in the Bible and the writings of contemporaries. The record show they wrote as they were inspired by God, that the Bible is "God Breathed".

If "you have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible" what evidence do you have that what they wrote was inspired by god, other than by what they wrote, which you claim we can't trust because we don't know what was in their minds or their motivations?

 

[AV1611VET]

If "you have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible" what evidence do you have that what they wrote was inspired by god, other than by what they wrote, which you claim we can't trust because we don't know what was in their minds or their motivations?

Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible are a powerful testimony to believers of the truth of the Scriptures.

So much so, that we can agree with Paul, when he says:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[mathetes123]

If "you have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible" what evidence do you have that what they wrote was inspired by god, other than by what they wrote, which you claim we can't trust because we don't know what was in their minds or their motivations?

I never said we didn't know what was inside the minds or motivations of the writers. I said outside of the written record they and their contemporaries left us, we don't know. The written record does not support your imaginative assumptions as to their motivations.

 

[Ginger123]

I never said we didn't know what was inside the minds or motivations of the writers.

But you don't do you? you have no idea because you have no idea who wrote the books of the bible.
You believe what you want to believe and nothing more, whoever wrote the books of the bible they were people who lived thousands of years ago and thought like people who lived thousands of years ago, 99% of them were illiterate.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hitler was also the world's most infamous vegetarian!

 

[quatona]

I'm not sure you've fully understood what "objective" means in this context.

Well, I went with the definition you provided: "independent of human thought".

Personal standards are not independant of human thought - the very fact that they are "personal" standards means, by definition, that they are subjective and not objective e.g. they take place in a person's mind rather than in reality.

Exactly. Thats why your assumption that people who say "good" necessarily and implicitly appeal to objectivity is unfounded. They may simply appeal to their personal standards.
(Or - which was my other point - they may appeal to what´s believed to be God´s opinion. Just in the same way believers do).

Anyway, the funny thing about human ideas about morality are (if following your definition) never objective. Simply because your ideas are never independent of your thoughts.

As for the Bible - if we assume that there is no God, and the Bible was simply a collection of books written by ordinary human beings, then that too is subjective. It means we are simply following the personal opinions of writers who lived thousands of years ago.

And even if we assume that the bible is god´s own word, your and mine and everyone´s (be they Christians or not) interpretation of it is that of ordinary human beings, as well - i.e. subjective.

I chose those three (slavery, genocide and misogyny) because those are the three examples ThinkForYourself mentioned specifically.

I see.

 

[bhsmte]

You have no idea what was in the minds or the motivations of the writers of the bible other than their own written record in the Bible and the writings of contemporaries. The record show they wrote as they were inspired by God, that the Bible is "God Breathed".

The "written record" as you call it are the words written by man. As you state, no one knows for sure what their motivations were for sure in what they wrote etc.. We do know, the NT specifically (the gospels) were not penned until 40+ years after Jesus died and by UNKNOWN authors. We also know the originals do not exist and only copies of copies of copies starting about the 2nd century. Scholars have also shown, some stories in the gospels did not exist in the oldest copies available and some were added centuries later.

All in all, the "written record" you speak of, does not promote a high degree of confidence in scholars and historians as to it's historical reliability.