Adding and taking away???

[yeshuaskid]

I'm not writing this to get an argument started. I'm really having trouble with this, though. Why do we use the word Rapture when the word doesn't exist in the Bible? I know that some people view it as another meaning for being called up but, why did we just accept the word and start using it in our explanations of end times?

 

[In Christ Forever]

I'm not writing this to get an argument started. I'm really having trouble with this, though. Why do we use the word Rapture when the word doesn't exist in the Bible? I know that some people view it as another meaning for being called up but, why did we just accept the word and start using it in our explanations of end times?

How else could the have a "rapture" index.

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html


Rapture Index 156
Net Change +1

Updated Oct 25, 2004

2001 High 182 2002 High 179 2003 High 177 2004 High 1562001 Low 160 2002 Low 161 2003 Low 133 2004 Low 135Record High 182 Record Low 57 24 Sept 01 12 Dec 93 COMMENTS ON ACTIVE CATEGORIES

 

[yeshuaskid]

I should have known I would get an answer from YOU so fast...In Christ Forever...

I just checked out the website. It's pretty cool! Thanks! I still don't understand why we use the word, though. Isn't it weird that it's not in the Bible but, we use it like it was? I believe it deals with calling up and end times but, I just found out the actual word isn't in the Bible. I've read many of your other posts so, I'm asking you for your advice on something. I have a friend who I just explained the rapture to. This was before I found out about the words existence. Now, the same friend wants to know what else has been made up in the Bible. I don't know what to say. What would you suggest?

 

[bobbichan]

Yay! let's visit our dear old friend Mr. Webster!

Main Entry: 1rap·ture
Pronunciation: 'rap-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin raptus
1 a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
2 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion

I guess we use the word Rapture to describe what it will feel like when Jesus gather's his elect from the world. The actual event is described in the Bible, but it doesn't really describe what it will feel like (from my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong). So... I assume we just stuck the name on there at some point in time during the past.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I'm not writing this to get an argument started. I'm really having trouble with this, though. Why do we use the word Rapture when the word doesn't exist in the Bible? I know that some people view it as another meaning for being called up but, why did we just accept the word and start using it in our explanations of end times?

It is from the Latin word for 'caught up' - the latin word that was used in the Latin Vulgate Bible. The words 'caught up' are in the passage in I thes. 4.

The word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible either either, but the teaching is there.

 

[In Christ Forever]

I should have known I would get an answer from YOU so fast...In Christ Forever...

I just checked out the website. It's pretty cool! Thanks! I still don't understand why we use the word, though. Isn't it weird that it's not in the Bible but, we use it like it was? I believe it deals with calling up and end times but, I just found out the actual word isn't in the Bible. I've read many of your other posts so, I'm asking you for your advice on something. I have a friend who I just explained the rapture to. This was before I found out about the words existence. Now, the same friend wants to know what else has been made up in the Bible. I don't know what to say. What would you suggest?

I didn't mean for you to go to that site. It was more of a subtle "sarcasism/put down" of it Try this site:
http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id84.htm

Here is the great gathering in revelation. The dead being resurrected, the Elect being forcefully led to safety by the Spirit . The next part shows the Grapes of Wrath being thrown into the winepress of the Wrath of God. So both the dead and living saints will witness the final wraths but still go thru the tribulation.


reve 14: 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

 

[yeshuaskid]

It is from the Latin word for 'caught up' .

That's always been my assumption, too.

The word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible either either, but the teaching is there.

Ah yes...Trinity...I was going to save that for another one of my pathetic-type threads. LOL! It amazes me that we can find these words in the dictionary but, not in the Bible. I guess it's more of a personal rant for me. It drives me nuts, sometimes.

My only hope is to be 'caught up' too!

God Bless...

 

[yeshuaskid]

I didn't mean for you to go to that site. It was more of a subtle "sarcasism/put down" of it Try this site:
http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id84.htm

Subtle sarcasm isn't best interpreted by me! LOL

I can't get the page to load up.

 

[In Christ Forever]

Subtle sarcasm isn't best interpreted by me! LOL

I can't get the page to load up.

It explains why Paul was telling them about the "rapture" in that age. Here is a little of it. It helps to know the circumstances and what was going on in the churches back then to understand Paul writings most times. It is rather long with a lot of greek interpretation and NT references to it. God bless.

The Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life. “Threatened by powers and demons, by illnesses and unforeseen strokes of fate, one lived in suspense and fear and felt subject to overpowering forces against which one could not assert oneself.” 2 The Thessalonian converts may have thought that the gods and demons who inhabited the air were responsible for the persecution and death suffered in their church. In fear occasioned by the apparent victories of the forces of darkness over them, the Thessalonian church was concerned whether those who had died would be with the Lord at all, not simply at his parousia. Their own fate would thus also have been in doubt. It was with these specific concerns in mind that Paul wrote the 4,13-5,10 pericope, affirming that those whom God has elected are assuredly the Lord's, attested by their “meeting in the air” at the parousia to behold the victory of the conquering Christ over the forces of darkness.

Ephesians 2:1 And you [He made alive,] who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according tothe prince of the power of the air[#109], the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1 thess 4:17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be "caught up/carried away together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air[#109]. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[yeshuaskid]

OOOH...wait....I got into the page....Cool! Thanks ICF...

 

[FreeinChrist]

That's always been my assumption, too.

Ah yes...Trinity...I was going to save that for another one of my pathetic-type threads. LOL! It amazes me that we can find these words in the dictionary but, not in the Bible. I guess it's more of a personal rant for me. It drives me nuts, sometimes.

My only hope is to be 'caught up' too!

God Bless...

I don't get your point. It IS in the Bible - the Latin word is in the Latin Bible - the Vulgate.

 

[yeshuaskid]

Sorry....

My point was not that being caught up wasn't in the bible. It's just a bit odd to me that we use the word rapture when it's not written in the bible. I don't have a Latin bible but, I've checked fourteen other versions and can't find the word Trinity or Vulgate in them. I believe you that it's in the Latin Bible. Is there a place online where I can look that up? I'm studying in this specific area, right now, and any info would help.

Thanks...

 

[Justme]

Hi Yeshuaskid,

I think a real important thing to take note of in the "caught up" phrase is that it refers to people who are alive and remain AFTER the parousia. Not only is it not pre trib it is not even pre parousia.

Justme

 

[Southern Cross]

I agree with In Christ Forever. Check out these verses:

1 Thess 4:13-18, John 14:3 and 1 Cor 15:51-58

"Rapture" comes from the 4th century Latin vulgate translation of the word harpadzo (a Greek word found in 1 Thess 4:17) and it's widely accepted as the best word to describe what happens in the "Twinkling of an eye". Some translations describe it as "snatched away" or "caught up".

Justme, you said:

"I think a real important thing to take note of in the "caught up" phrase is that it refers to people who are alive and remain AFTER the parousia. Not only is it not pre trib it is not even pre parousia."
Ok, can you please explain that statement? I think I understand where you are coming from, but this can be a very confusing topic for some readers and I think they need to hear your point of view - and expect me to challenge it. Are you are referring to saved believers who are left behind? Can you please provide more detail?

 

[Dad Ernie]

Justme, you said:

"I think a real important thing to take note of in the "caught up" phrase is that it refers to people who are alive and remain AFTER the parousia. Not only is it not pre trib it is not even pre parousia."
Ok, can you please explain that statement? I think I understand where you are coming from, but this can be a very confusing topic for some readers and I think they need to hear your point of view - and expect me to challenge it. Are you are referring to saved believers who are left behind? Can you please provide more detail?

Greetings Southern Cross,

I agree with Justme, the reference to "caught up" is of a very small group (a remnant) mentioned in Rev. 11:13. These are they who must await the 7th Trumpet at which we "who are alive and remain" (after the FIRST resurrection) before being "caught up" to be with the Lord and ALL the saints forever.

I am not speaking for JustMe. Just how I see it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Southern Cross]

Ok, now I'm confused. Revelation 11:13 specifically says this:

"At that very hour, there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven Thousand people were kiled inthe earthquake, and the survivers were terrified and gave Glory to the God of heaven (NIV)"

Are you referring to Rev 11:12 and the verses before it? I don't think that refers to the remnant at all, it's referring specifically to the two witnesses God sent to proclaim the truth for 3.5 years. I see no remnant mentioned here, just the two witnesses.

This is good stuff. It's good to debate it. Please let me know what you think.

 

[Justme]

Hi Southern Cross,

Ok, can you please explain that statement? I think I understand where you are coming from, but this can be a very confusing topic for some readers and I think they need to hear your point of view - and expect me to challenge it. Are you are referring to saved believers who are left behind? Can you please provide more detail?

Please do challege me, if you don't or nobody else does , I rotate in the same old information and in the end learn nothing.

The verses in question and the 'caught up' phrase is here in 1 Thess 4. Now let's just take the meaning from these very verses, we won't try to fit in meaning from anywhere else in the bible, just deal with the teaching of these very few verses.

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

There are people who have fallen aslep. The same term is used throughout these verses so for this we don't even have to define what it means.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

We who are alive at the coming(parousia) will not precede those who are asleep. Precede in what? Again it doesn't matter at this point , all we have to know is that those who are alive at the coming are AFTER those who are asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Here we find out what's going on....the dead in Christ are raised.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

After those who are asleep are raised, those who are alive and remain will be raised and that group were ALIVE at the coming. Therefore the 'caught up' is not before the great tribulation, in fact the caught up is NOT EVEN BEFORE the parousia.

Are you are referring to saved believers who are left behind? Can you please provide more detail?

It is NOT the believers who see the coming of the son of man in the great tribulation. Those who SEE the coming of the son of man in the Olivet Discourse are the wicked, those who reject Christ. Those who are 'left behind' are the friends of Jesus and Jesus even asked for prayer to make their flight as easy as possible.

Matt 24
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Then after the parousia and the harvest of the earth it is these people who will be blessed.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ' Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'"

Justme

 

[Southern Cross]

Thanks for the detail, JustMe!

Okay, I cracked open the Bible, and I don't get where there is a waiting time specified between when the dead are taken up and the living have to wait for a time. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 simply says that those that are asleep (i.e., dead) shall rise up to be with Christ first, and we shall join them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Now when I read this, I don't see any timeline established. To me, it seems that it simply means that all the dead shall rise first, and we follow close behind.

As for Matt 24, isn't vs 15 referencing the antichrist who desecrates the temple and starts off the worst of the tribulation? Jesus specifically references Daniel. Daniel 9:27 seems to stongly refer to a single man who confirms the peace accord with Israel and agrees to 7 years of peace, then halts the sacrifice and offerings in the temple after the first 3.5 years and all hell breaks loose. Daniel 11:31 also seems to refer to an antichrist as a single man - it would be a stretch to suggest otherwise. Daniel 12:11 refers back to the timing in Daniel 9:27 and again defines the antichrist and his act in the temple as "the abomination that causes desolation".

As as for Matt 24:16, isn't Jesus specifically referencing the Jews when he tells those in Judea to flee to the mountains? The Jews are the primary target of the antichrist, regardless if they are saved or not, alomg with Christians. I would think this verse would be an eye opener for Jews who live in that day and age who have not yet recognized Jesus as the Messiah. If translated literally, it'll be one of the verses that helps to convert Jews to born again Christians in the last days. Do you disagree that Jesus was speaking to the Jews? Or am I off base in this one?

Anyway, if you can post any definitive references to Perousia, I will take a look. I've heard of it, I know some of the details, but I'd like to examine the complete doctrine a little more.

Gracias JustMe!

Chris/Southern Cross

 

[Justme]

Hi Southern Cross,

First, 'parousia' is just the Greek word commonly used to replace the engish phrase of the coming of the son of man on the clouds. That word is used in MAtthew 24:3, 1 Thess 4: 15 etc. 24 times in the NT I think.

and I don't get where there is a waiting time specified between when the dead are taken up and the living have to wait for a time.

I agree with you, there is no time specified in those verses, however, it doesn't specifically say it is right away either.

Where I get the 'it;s not right away idea' from is Rev 14.

Verses 14 to end of chapter discuss the coming on the clouds and the harvesting of the earth as described in the parable of the weeds from Matthew chapter 13.

Just as John is about to see this happen in the vision he is told to write:

Rev 14:13
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

SO this tells us that those who are blessed are those who die AFTER the coming of the son of man on the clouds. That is what tells me that there is much time between the raising of the ones who sleep and those alive and remaining at the coming. 1 Thess 4:15.

As for Matt 24, isn't vs 15 referencing the antichrist who desecrates the temple and starts off the worst of the tribulation?

You probably could call this the anti christ. I call it the abomnination because that is what Jesus called it. Yes, Jesus did tell us to check back into Daniel about this abomination and in Daniel 12 it says this:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The sacrifices were stopped in 70 AD so this verse again must tie to the armies in Luke 21:20.

As as for Matt 24:16, isn't Jesus specifically referencing the Jews when he tells those in Judea to flee to the mountains? The Jews are the primary target of the antichrist, regardless if they are saved or not, alomg with Christians

Whoops, I sure don't see it this way. I'll try and unwind what I think it is.

The great tribulation is going to seriously impact Judea and Jerusalem. The wrath will be poured out on all who reject Christ. The ones who rejected Christ were indeed Jews although some Jews accepted Jesus as well. Those who reject Jesus are the primary target of the wrath of God, He may enlist the antichrist to fight the bloody war...whatever. The Jews and any other friends of Jesus are instructed to flee the area, get out of the way to avoid this great tribulation. Christians would not be a target of God's wrath at all in the great tribulation. They have nothing to fear in the great tribulation because they have accepted Christ. The great tribulation is the time of vengence on those who would not believe, specifically people described in MAtthew 23, the brood of vipers.

Do you disagree that Jesus was speaking to the Jews? Or am I off base in this one?

No, I don't disagree, as the biblical story goes, Jesus was talking to Jews.

Isn't it amazing how two people can read this same story and come up with almost opposite ideas. I don't feel there is a rapture and I think that is where we come up so different in understanding the verses.

Justme

 

[In Christ Forever]

Hi Southern Cross,

First, 'parousia' is just the Greek word commonly used to replace the engish phrase of the coming of the son of man on the clouds. That word is used in MAtthew 24:3, 1 Thess 4: 15 etc. 24 times in the NT I think.


I agree with you, there is no time specified in those verses, however, it doesn't specifically say it is right away either.

Where I get the 'it;s not right away idea' from is Rev 14.

Verses 14 to end of chapter discuss the coming on the clouds and the harvesting of the earth as described in the parable of the weeds from Matthew chapter 13.

Just as John is about to see this happen in the vision he is told to write:

Rev 14:13
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

SO this tells us that those who are blessed are those who die AFTER the coming of the son of man on the clouds. That is what tells me that there is much time between the raising of the ones who sleep and those alive and remaining at the coming. 1 Thess 4:15.


You probably could call this the anti christ. I call it the abomnination because that is what Jesus called it. Yes, Jesus did tell us to check back into Daniel about this abomination and in Daniel 12 it says this:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The sacrifices were stopped in 70 AD so this verse again must tie to the armies in Luke 21:20.


Whoops, I sure don't see it this way. I'll try and unwind what I think it is.

The great tribulation is going to seriously impact Judea and Jerusalem. The wrath will be poured out on all who reject Christ. The ones who rejected Christ were indeed Jews although some Jews accepted Jesus as well. Those who reject Jesus are the primary target of the wrath of God, He may enlist the antichrist to fight the bloody war...whatever. The Jews and any other friends of Jesus are instructed to flee the area, get out of the way to avoid this great tribulation. Christians would not be a target of God's wrath at all in the great tribulation. They have nothing to fear in the great tribulation because they have accepted Christ. The great tribulation is the time of vengence on those who would not believe, specifically people described in MAtthew 23, the brood of vipers.


No, I don't disagree, as the biblical story goes, Jesus was talking to Jews.

Isn't it amazing how two people can read this same story and come up with almost opposite ideas. I don't feel there is a rapture and I think that is where we come up so different in understanding the verses.

Justme

I wonder how one twist revelation around to fit this passage into revelation, as Christ was talking directly tothe Priest, and the wicked are shown being judged AFTER the beast, false prophet and devil are thrown into the lake of fire. I assume the high priest would have to be of one of these in Luke 21, and why I see the "lake of fire" as a great city burning on earth. Amazing how scripture proves scripture for those lookng for the TRUTH in it.

Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, "Do You answer nothing? What [is it] these men testify against You?" 61 But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" 62 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." 63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land andwrath upon this people.


Jeremiah 2:13 "Behold, he shall come up like clouds,And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!" 14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, That you may be saved. How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you? 15 For a voice declares from Dan And proclaims affliction from Mount Ephraim: 16 "Make mention to the nations, Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem, [That] watchers come from a far country And raise their voice against the cities of Judah