"Adaptations" and other "givens"

[truthseeker32]

Is the idea that there was no physical death and decay prior to the Fall solely based on what the fathers have to say on the matter, or do those of you who hold such a view think there is evidence of this in Genesis itself?

 

[truthseeker32]

Well, I think it sounds like no big woop, but things like dinosaurs play into the evolution argument to a certain degree I think....Why would God create these beasts so massive, powerful, awesome, and dangerous, covering the Earth with them and then just wiping them out and putting Man on the planet? And with the Creation narrative, where do they fall in and why?

I think this stuff is fodder for pro-evolutionists to argue their case...

I don't know if it logically follows that dinosaurs strengthen the case for biological evolution. It seems more like it merely strengthens the case for the earth being very old.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is the idea that there was no physical death and decay prior to the Fall solely based on what the fathers have to say on the matter, or do those of you who hold such a view think there is evidence of this in Genesis itself?

well, when God creates, He deems all of His creation good. so if there was death from the beginning, that would also have to be good. if it is good, how is it the last enemy to be defeated? if death for the created world is good, and just not man, how does all of creation yearn for restoration and why does all of creation become glorified after Christ's second coming? if the natural and good order is to die off for the created world, shouldn't that be the way it is after the Judgment?

the clearest though is what jckstraw posted from Wisdom of Solomon.

 

[truthseeker32]

well, when God creates, He deems all of His creation good. so if there was death from the beginning, that would also have to be good. if it is good, how is it the last enemy to be defeated? if death for the created world is good, and just not man, how does all of creation yearn for restoration and why does all of creation become glorified after Christ's second coming? if the natural and good order is to die off for the created world, shouldn't that be the way it is after the Judgment?

the clearest though is what jckstraw posted from Wisdom of Solomon.

I would like to explore this a bit.

Should we talk about the death of something like a tree or a weed in the same manner that we speak about the death of human beings? Is it even okay to say a tree dies? It doesn't experience death. It doesn't get sad when its other tree friends die. Does a tree die any more than a computer dies when it is turned off or taken apart?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would like to explore this a bit.

Should we talk about the death of something like a tree or a weed in the same manner that we speak about the death of human beings? Is it even okay to say a tree dies? It doesn't experience death. It doesn't get sad when its other tree friends die. Does a tree die any more than a computer dies when it is turned off or taken apart?

no they are not the same, but still Wisdom of Solomon says no death. the ECFs as quoted by jckstraw say the same thing, as do modern elders and saints.

 

[truthseeker32]

no they are not the same, but still Wisdom of Solomon says no death. the ECFs as quoted by jckstraw say the same thing, as do modern elders and saints.

That is what I am asking, though. Is it right to apply the term "death" to a plant that has no awareness of its condition? I have always seen "death" as more grave and profound. When a tree dries up and ceases to carry out its biological functions I don't think something bad is happening. In fact, I think one can point to instances where an organism dying is good or necessary because it contributes to the circle of life.

What does "death" mean to us Christians?

 

[truefiction1]

That is what I am asking, though. Is it right to apply the term "death" to a plant that has no awareness of its condition? I have always seen "death" as more grave and profound. When a tree dries up and ceases to carry out its biological functions I don't think something bad is happening. In fact, I think one can point to instances where an organism dying is good or necessary because it contributes to the circle of life.

What does "death" mean to us Christians?

Death's most profound effect is upon mankind. It is to be regarded as complete absurdity: for to a mortal species who has become self-aware, aware of one's existence as a unique person, that is what it truly is.

There is an old story that King Midas had hunted for the wise Silenus, the companion of Dionysus, for a long time in the woods without catching him. But when he finally fell into his hands, the King asked: “What is the very best and the most preferable thing for Man?’ The demon remained silent, stubborn, and motionless; until he was finally compelled by the King, and then broke out into shrill laughter, uttering these words: “Miserable, ephemeral species, children of chance and of hardship, why do you compel me to tell you what is most profitable for you not to hear? The very best is quite unattainable for you: it is, not to be born, not to exist, to be Nothing. But the next best for you is – to die soon.” -- Nietzsche: The Birth of Tragedy.

 

[jckstraw72]

certainly, only man has a rational soul, and it is when the rational soul departs that man dies, but yet we all still speak of animals and plants dying. no, it's not the same thing, but it's no less a part of God's plan.

even the ground is cursed in Genesis after man's sin - that tell us that the earth was not always as we know it now.

 

[truefiction1]

even the ground is cursed in Genesis after man's sin - that tell us that the earth was not always as we know it now.

And we might also consider that it has a more cryptic meaning: That the division or absence of the communion of Love that we ourselves choose to allow to exist is preventing us from knowing how to manage the earth in a supreme way that is entirely within our capability – if we would only stop fighting each other and live together in peace. Perhaps it is that we ourselves curse the earth through our own selfishness, cowardice, and the resulting blindness to truth and reality.

"There is a Law that man should love his neighbor as himself. In a few hundred years it should be as natural to mankind as breathing or the upright gait; but if he does not learn it he must perish."
-- Alfred Adler

 

[jckstraw72]

well certainly we can say that we curse the earth through our sin, but I don't think we can say that the curse consists in our misuse of it. For example, the Venerable Bede writes in his On Genesis:

Now here it is clear that before the sin of man earth produced nothing harmful – no poisonous plant, no unfruitful tree.

so we see here that the earth actually began to produce plants with different qualities than before, not simply that man began to misuse the earth (although we certainly do do that). St. Ignatius Briachaninov writes in his Slovo o cheloveke, (Homily on Man):

The earth, created, adorned, blessed by God, did not have any deficiencies. It was overflowing with refinement. "God saw," after the completion of the whole creation of the world, "everything that He had made: and, behold, it was very good." (Gen. 1:31). Now the earth is presented to our eyes in a completely different look. We do not know her condition in holy virginity; we know her in the condition of corruption and accursedness, we know her already sentenced to burning; she was created for eternity. . . . Plants were not subjected either to decay or to diseases; both decay and diseases and the weeds themselves, appeared after the alteration of the earth following the fall of man . . . According to its creation, there was on it only the splendid, only the wholesome, there was only that which was suitable for the immortal and blessed life of its inhabitants . . . The beasts and other animals lived in perfect harmony among themselves, nourishing themselves on plant life.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 14:

Commenting on Romans 8:20:

What is the meaning of "the creation was made subject to futility"? That it became corruptible. For what cause, and on what account? On account of you, O man. For since you took a body mortal and subject to suffering, so also the earth received a curse, and brought forth thorns and thistles … Just as the creation became corruptible when your body became corruptible, so also when your body will be incorrupt, the creation also will follow after it and become corresponding to it.

St. Philaret of Moscow, Commentary on the Book of Genesis p. 42:

Since God has approved of the whole kingdom of plants (cf. Gen. 1:12), man should not rebel against Him, seeing that some plants are poisonous or noxious. If the fall of man had not subjected the entire earth to corruption, we would find in them only good and useful properties.

St. Symeon the New Theologian, Ethical Discourses 1.4:

This is the reason why, when God saw from before the creation of the world that Adam would be saved through re-birth, He subjected creation to him, and put it under a curse so that, having been created for the sake of man who had fallen into corruption, it should itself become corrupt and provide him annually with corrupted food. . . . Which is to say that creation was not of itself subjected to humanity, nor was it willingly changed over to corruption and made to bear perishable fruits and to sprout thorns and thistles, but as obedient to God’s command Who ordered these things, and with the hope of a restoration.

 

[truefiction1]

well certainly we can say that we curse the earth through our sin, but I don't think we can say that the curse consists in our misuse of it. For example, the Venerable Bede writes in his On Genesis:

so we see here that the earth actually began to produce plants with different qualities than before, not simply that man began to misuse the earth (although we certainly do do that). St. Ignatius Briachaninov writes in his Slovo o cheloveke, (Homily on Man):

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 14:

Commenting on Romans 8:20:

St. Philaret of Moscow, Commentary on the Book of Genesis p. 42:

St. Symeon the New Theologian, Ethical Discourses 1.4:

... this would seem a formidable array of saintly witness, unless, however we also give thought to the possibility, quite likely even the probability, that these men who the Church have canonized as saints had, just as their predecessors, from Paul on, uncritically (and mistakenly) regarded the Pentateuch to be actual history, rather than a special “religious history”, because they were unaware that the authors of Genesis did not know much about the long history (of the earth and man), and that it didn’t matter to them, because… “They wished to sketch instead a few highlights about human origins that had particular religious significance for Israel's view of life, and to record a few traditions about their own ancestors that would help them understand how they came to be a people and a nation." (Lawrence Boadt)


In other words, it may be possible that any and all of the Christian Bible commentators you can muster whose approach to Scripture is identical to yours, even though they are saints, might’ve innocently been unaware that their uncritical assumptions regarding the accuracy of Scripture as historical or scientific reference material were/are due to a limited or non-existent awareness of facts existing outside of the usual horizons of their own personal microcosmic experiences. Did they, and do you, understand the nature of myth, or where myth truly has its source?


“On the first level, myth is a story using traditional motifs and themes. It is not scientific or historical in outlook as we would expect; it is more like folktale, but it does convey how the Israelites saw the shape of the world---it was their "science," so to speak. A very good example of this use of myth is the description of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2: life originated in the East; there was a central source of water which split into the great rivers of the earth; the first man was made out of dust and the first woman out of a rib; God planted two special and unusual trees in the garden---the tree of life and the tree of good and evil; there was harmony between humans and animals in the beginning. These were all familiar parts of ancient descriptions of the world, and since Israel accepted them as true, we can say that the Bible contains many myths simply because ancient Israelites were not as sophisticated in their knowledge as we are.” (Lawrence Boadt).


There is a second level of myth also, which we may find needful to discuss later.

 

[truthseeker32]

I guess what I am trying to say, and this may make me seem like a monster, but I don't see the death of plants, bacteria, fungi, and even some animals as necessarily bad and evil just as I wouldn't think it was bad or evil if I watched a robot shut down. I also doubt that animals see the death of other animals as a sad thing.

What makes human death significant is that we are self-aware. We experience beauty, tragedy. In short, we are meaning-makers. Without human beings the universe (unless self aware aliens exist) would be void of any creatures to see it, understand it, and find meaning in it. This is why death is evil. A rational creature imbued with reason and the image of God meant to live with God forever must suffer the effects of mortality and sin, and experience those around him going through the same.

 

[jckstraw72]

just another quote for some consideration:

"He who once assumed the guise of a malignant serpent and planted death in the garden of creation, is now cast into darkness by Christ's coming in the flesh, and by assailing the Master, the Dawn which hath shone forth upon us, he crusheth his own loathsome head." -- Canon for Afterfeast of Theophany, Jan. 11, Ode 3

here we see the Church proclaim to us that Satan planted death in creation, not just in mankind. this is from the Menaion which is sung everywhere by all Churches for hundreds of years. In our worship we proclaim our beliefs. considering this, that the Church blames Satan for death and contrasts that with the work of God, I don't know how we could say that death in creation is in fact NOT evil and that it actually was put there by God. Do we really want to ascribe to God what the Church ascribes to Satan?

 

[truefiction1]

just another quote for some consideration:

"He who once assumed the guise of a malignant serpent and planted death in the garden of creation, is now cast into darkness by Christ's coming in the flesh, and by assailing the Master, the Dawn which hath shone forth upon us, he crusheth his own loathsome head." -- Canon for Afterfeast of Theophany, Jan. 11, Ode 3

here we see the Church proclaim to us that Satan planted death in creation, not just in mankind. this is from the Menaion which is sung everywhere by all Churches for hundreds of years. In our worship we proclaim our beliefs. considering this, that the Church blames Satan for death and contrasts that with the work of God, I don't know how we could say that death in creation is in fact NOT evil and that it actually was put there by God. Do we really want to ascribe to God what the Church ascribes to Satan?

Excellent point. But God of course knows of all beforehand, and allows it for His reasons. Death of humans is allowed (obviously because we know that it occurs) and is according to His plan. God does not have a plan "A" which failed because of the freewill which He accorded some of His creatures, forcing Him to resort to a plan "B". If God is perfect and makes no mistakes in His incomprehensible Divine Providence, then death as we know it was always meant to be (even if only a temporal thing), from the commencement of creation. So, The author and architect of all things is also the author of death. There is no way to circumvent this undeniable truth, we can only blame this upon Satan to a certain extent, so there must be a better explanation. And there is: death exists because it serves a vital function in the Divine Plan (as we often call it) just as the incarnation of the Word does. Perhaps we can consider that there is something much worse than the suffering and death that we experience and grieve upon (i.e. not having ever seen God), and that conversely, there is something much better in store for all of us than we are presently capable of imagining, and will only understand when we have fulfilled our destiny by becoming capable of immortality, because we are to become as God -- Who alone is good enough to be worthy of eternity, and so we also must become like Him if we are to be immortal.

With regard to the poetic imagery of our Theologically imbued hymns that we use in our form of worship, we might see these as important for their symbolic representations of unconscious, repressed truths that our conscious minds must somehow become aware of in order for us to become spiritually well. If we understand what the symbols really say to us, it's not necessary to hold to a literal interpretation of the things sung about. If you hold a literal view, fine. If you don't, that can be fine too. The path we must stay upon offers the same level of difficulty for each of us regardless of our objective beliefs, and is neither easier nor harder for you than it is for me (Matthew 25:35).

 

[jckstraw72]

I do not agree at all that death was always part of the Divine plan simply because God allowed it. Our free will was always part of the plan - but our misuse of it and the consequences of the misuse certainly are not part of the Divine plan. Since death is the result of sin, to say that death is part of the plan we would have to say that sin is part of God's plan as well - in order to bring about the death that He desires ... we cannot say God wills sin and death.

Again:

Wisdom of Solomon 1:12 Seek not death in the error of your life: and pull not upon yourselves destruction with the works of your hands.
13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth:

here we see that God did not make death, nor does He delight in it! It would be rather strange to say that God made death but yet has no delight in it -- He finds no delight in His own will?

 

[truthseeker32]

just another quote for some consideration:

here we see the Church proclaim to us that Satan planted death in creation, not just in mankind. this is from the Menaion which is sung everywhere by all Churches for hundreds of years. In our worship we proclaim our beliefs. considering this, that the Church blames Satan for death and contrasts that with the work of God, I don't know how we could say that death in creation is in fact NOT evil and that it actually was put there by God. Do we really want to ascribe to God what the Church ascribes to Satan?

I hate to nitpick, but all we garner from the passage you quoted is that it was in the garden that the serpent brought about death. It just tells us where it happened. It doesn't tell us what death means or to what it applies. I can't help but notice that the only times Jesus or his apostles talk about death is in relation to human beings.

I am not saying death isn't evil. I am questioning whether or not the term "death" as used in the bible applies to all organisms or just humans.

 

[jckstraw72]

we should not read that hymn as referring literally to the Garden, but rather it is poetically referring to creation as a garden. In fact, the literal Garden of Eden is the one place where corruption did NOT set in - and that is precisely why Adam and Eve could not remain there.

but as for whether death applies to only humans or to all things, see again the passage from the Wisdom of Solomon:

Wisdom of Solomon 1:12 Seek not death in the error of your life: and pull not upon yourselves destruction with the works of your hands.
13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth:


and recall the passage where St. Paul tells us that all of creation groans in anticipation of its redemption. and for one more example, St. Symeon specifically says that not ONLY the Garden was in paradisiacal state, but rather the entirety of creation:

God did not, as some people think, just give Paradise to our ancestors at the beginning, nor did He make only Paradise incorruptible. No! Instead, He did much more. Before Paradise He made the whole earth, the one which we inhabit, and everything in it. Nor that alone, but He also in five days brought the heavens and all they contain into being. On the sixth day He made Adam and established him as lord and king of all the visible creation. Neither Eve nor Paradise were yet created, but the whole world had been brought into being by God as one thing, as a kind of paradise, at once incorruptible yet material and perceptible. It was this world, as we said, which was given to Adam and to his descendants for their enjoyment. Does this seem strange to you? It should not. --- Ethical Discourses 1.1

and he even specifies about the state of plants before the Fall:

Notice that it is nowhere written, “God created paradise,” or that he said “let it be and it was,” but instead that He “planted” it, and “made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food” [Gen. 2:8-9], bearing every kind and variety of fruit, fruit which is never spoiled or lacking but always fresh and ripe, full of sweetness, and providing our ancestors with indescribable pleasure and enjoyment. For their immortal bodies had to be supplied with incorruptible food. --- Ethical Discourses 1.1

 

[rusmeister]

Sorry I don't have time for this,
I didn't see anyone point out the Scripture "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..."

Absolutely everything in Scripture and Tradition points to there being no death before the Fall. There is no way you can make a case for human death prior to the Fall that would be consistent with our Faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is what I am asking, though. Is it right to apply the term "death" to a plant that has no awareness of its condition? I have always seen "death" as more grave and profound. When a tree dries up and ceases to carry out its biological functions I don't think something bad is happening. In fact, I think one can point to instances where an organism dying is good or necessary because it contributes to the circle of life.

What does "death" mean to us Christians?

death in the general sense means separation. there is some kind of spirit within even the plants and the rocks. Elder Joseph, in the theoria that jckstraw pointed out, noetically heard plants and rocks and everything glorifying God. so there is a God imparted life there of some kind. this is what King David means when he says in the Psalms

Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all you stars of light!
Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
And you waters above the heavens!

I would also point out that man is the microcosm, and if man was intended to live, then all of creation was intended to live with us.

 

[truefiction1]

I do not agree at all that death was always part of the Divine plan simply because God allowed it. Our free will was always part of the plan - but our misuse of it and the consequences of the misuse certainly are not part of the Divine plan. Since death is the result of sin, to say that death is part of the plan we would have to say that sin is part of God's plan as well - in order to bring about the death that He desires ... we cannot say God wills sin and death.

I'm not sure I understand what we're claiming here? Could it be that God was taken by surprise by man's disobedience? I suppose we could argue for that through a literal reading of the fall narrative. Or are you claiming the God actually does not have a plan which is already accomplished in His eternal abode, and that He's just reacting to things as they happen in linear time? How, exactly, are you able to point to things which exist and say "these were not planned on by God"?