Adam's world totally destroyed in the Flood

[Aman777]

God told Noah that He was going to destroy the violent men of the first world "with the Earth". Genesis 6:13
God told Noah "neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." in Genesis 9:11
God tells us in the New Testament that He "spared NOT the old world" in ll Peter 2:5
God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished, which in Greek means destroyed, totally. ll Peter 3:6
Isaiah tells us the world was "clean dissolved" and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

The first heaven, made on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) is no more for it was totally destroyed in the Flood.
Our present second heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The third heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) is where Jesus is today, physically. It is also called the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Paul speaks of the THIRD Heaven in ll Corinthians 12:2.

Jesus tells us that He is going to prepare a place for us and that if it was not so, He would have told us. John 14:2

Can anyone explain WHY Christians don't teach this Scriptural FACT?

 

[disciple1938]

we know in part and understand in part and everyone does not have the same understanding. We are also told not to judge another man's (the Lord's) servants. Don't be anxious about anything, but in all things by prayer and supplication give thanks for the revelation you have and God's incomprehensable peace will guard your mind and heart. God bless and thanks for sharing yiur revelation on this.

 

[granpa]

God told Noah that He was going to destroy the violent men of the first world "with the Earth". Genesis 6:13
God told Noah "neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." in Genesis 9:11
God tells us in the New Testament that He "spared NOT the old world" in ll Peter 2:5
God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished, which in Greek means destroyed, totally. ll Peter 3:6
Isaiah tells us the world was "clean dissolved" and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

The first heaven, made on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) is no more for it was totally destroyed in the Flood.
Our present second heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The third heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) is where Jesus is today, physically. It is also called the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Paul speaks of the THIRD Heaven in ll Corinthians 12:2.

Jesus tells us that He is going to prepare a place for us and that if it was not so, He would have told us. John 14:2

Can anyone explain WHY Christians don't teach this Scriptural FACT?

you are on the right track but its not just second firmament.
Its second whole world.
the whole creation story repeats

 

[Assyrian]

To start with you final question first

...Can anyone explain WHY Christians don't teach this Scriptural FACT?

The problem is that while you have a coherent interpretation yourself, not everyone will assemble all these different pieces together the way you do. Lets have a look.

God told Noah that He was going to destroy the violent men of the first world "with the Earth". Genesis 6:13
God told Noah "neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." in Genesis 9:11
God tells us in the New Testament that He "spared NOT the old world" in ll Peter 2:5
God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished, which in Greek means destroyed, totally. ll Peter 3:6

Does this mean we are living on a seconds earth? Even if you take the flood account as referring to the whole world, it was the same earth that emerged once the waters subsided. Everything on it was destroyed, but it grew against and was repopulated. In fact the passage may be using the word 'earth' in a quite different way to Genesis 1:1, referring to a flood that covered a region rather than the planet. The Hebrew erets can be translated either way as the earth or referring to a particular land. In 2Peter the word used for the flood is kosmos translated 'world' which is a different word to the one Peter uses to describe the creation of the earth, ge. kosmos has a range of meanings from cosmetics to the whole cosmos, but one that fits particularly well here is the ordered civilisation in Noah's time, it was 'the world of the ungodly' that was destroyed rather than the whole planet.

If you want scriptural evidence we are living in Earth 1.0, look at that passage you refer to in Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. We are living in the first earth.

Isaiah tells us the world was "clean dissolved" and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

You need to watch the used of verb tenses in Hebrew, they are used to indicate the completeness of an action rather than telling you when it happens. So you often get what look like past tenses in prophetic passages that are actually speaking about the future. Sometimes the Hebrew can use grammatical structures to tell us if it is past or future, but often you need to look for indications given in the context to find out when it happens. I think the key here is Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall...

The first heaven, made on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) is no more for it was totally destroyed in the Flood.
Our present second heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The third heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) is where Jesus is today, physically. It is also called the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Paul speaks of the THIRD Heaven in ll Corinthians 12:2.

Is Paul's third heaven referring chronologically, or, for want of a better word, spatially? Instead of being the latest heaven is it referring to the 'highest heavens' we read about in scripture (1Kings 8:28, Psalm 148:4)?

In all of the passages you refer to in Genesis the Hebrew word for heaven is plural, heavens, it doesn't actually have a singular form. It is important not to read too much either way into heaven being plural or singular and especially into English translation that appear to distinguish between plural and singular. Genesis 1&2 does not actually describe a sequence of each individual heaven being created after another, after another. You could interpret it that way, but it is not specified by the text.

You also seem to see a series of three creation events in Genesis 1:6-8 and Genesis 2:4 that is not at all clear from the text, and is not one of the more usual interpretations of the text. Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created... What are the 'these' in Gen 2:4 it is not describing the heavens and the earth being created yet again, but it is referring to an account of the creation out the verse itself and describing it as the 'genealogy' or 'generations' of the heavens and the earth. The two most common interpretation are that it is referring to either the description of creation in Genesis 1 or the description that follows it in in Genesis 2.

Then we have the second part of the verse, Gen 2:4 ...in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Again this can simply be a temporal clause to the first part of the verse describing the when of 'when they were created', when they were created, in the day that... Alternatively, Gen 2:4a can refer back to Genesis 1 while the second half of the verse is actually the start of the following creation account Gen 2:4b In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up...

Jesus tells us that He is going to prepare a place for us and that if it was not so, He would have told us. John 14:2

Aren't these dwelling place/mansion in his father's house? Thanks for sharing this, I enjoy discussing the different way people approach these texts.

 

[Aman777]

Granpa:>>you are on the right track but its not just second firmament.

Dear Granpa, The first firmament is the boundary of the first heaven. It was placed in the midst or middle of the water.

Granpa:>>Its second whole world.

Does this mean that our second world also has a boundary which protects us from the vacuum of Space? or from other Universes?

Granpa:>>he whole creation story repeats

I cannot agree since it would mean that God tells us two conflicting stories. God tells us the entire history of His creation and at Genesis 2:4 takes us BACK to the 3rd Day and adds details of that day. ie. It's the day the LORD makes Adam.

Then the narrative takes us to the present Day of Salvation, the 6th Day, the last Day, before the 7th Day, which is Eternity? Right?

 

[Aman777]

Assyrian:>>To start with you final question first

Originally Posted by Aman777

...Can anyone explain WHY Christians don't teach this Scriptural FACT?
​

The problem is that while you have a coherent interpretation yourself, not everyone will assemble all these different pieces together the way you do. Lets have a look.

Aman:>>God told Noah that He was going to destroy the violent men of the first world "with the Earth". Genesis 6:13
God told Noah "neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." in Genesis 9:11
God tells us in the New Testament that He "spared NOT the old world" in ll Peter 2:5
God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished, which in Greek means destroyed, totally. ll Peter 3:6
​

Assy:>>Does this mean we are living on a second earth?

Dear Assyrian, Yes. The first firmament or heaven was totally destroyed in the Flood.

Assy:>>Even if you take the flood account as referring to the whole world, it was the same earth that emerged once the waters subsided.

Not so. The first Earth was destroyed and sank in the waters in which it was placed.

Assy:>>Everything on it was destroyed, but it grew against and was repopulated.

Not so. Our earth was populated by the humans from the earth of Adam.

Assy:>>In fact the passage may be using the word 'earth' in a quite different way to Genesis 1:1, referring to a flood that covered a region rather than the planet.

God told Noah he was going to destroy the Earth and He did. Gen. 6:13

Assy:>>The Hebrew erets can be translated either way as the earth or referring to a particular land. In 2Peter the word used for the flood is kosmos translated 'world' which is a different word to the one Peter uses to describe the creation of the earth, ge. kosmos has a range of meanings from cosmetics to the whole cosmos, but one that fits particularly well here is the ordered civilisation in Noah's time, it was 'the world of the ungodly' that was destroyed rather than the whole planet.

The entire firmament or first heaven (kosmos) was totally destroyed as the word "perished" shows. It was "clean dissolved" according to Isaiah.

Assy:>>If you want scriptural evidence we are living in Earth 1.0, look at that passage you refer to in Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. We are living in the first earth.

I agree that the first earth, the earth of Adam has passed away along with it's sea. I see nothing which says that we are living on the SAME earth which was completely destroyed.

Aman:>>Isaiah tells us the world was "clean dissolved" and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

Assy:>>You need to watch the used of verb tenses in Hebrew, they are used to indicate the completeness of an action rather than telling you when it happens. So you often get what look like past tenses in prophetic passages that are actually speaking about the future. Sometimes the Hebrew can use grammatical structures to tell us if it is past or future, but often you need to look for indications given in the context to find out when it happens. I think the key here is Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall...

I agree, but look at the "SNARE".

Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the SNARE:

Following is the "SNARE". It is the story of the Flood.

for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

These verses could NOT be speaking of the future, for it would mean that God lied to Noah when He told him that a flood would never destroy the earth AGAIN. Genesis 9:11 The verses are speaking of the Snare or Trap, which God set to catch the all knowing, atheist scientists of the last days. It is PROOF that science is ignoring God's Truth.

I shall answer the rest of your post in another post.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>The first heaven, made on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) is no more for it was totally destroyed in the Flood.
Our present second heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The third heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) is where Jesus is today, physically. It is also called the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Paul speaks of the THIRD Heaven in ll Corinthians 12:2.
​

Assyrian:>>Is Paul's third heaven referring chronologically, or, for want of a better word, spatially? Instead of being the latest heaven is it referring to the 'highest heavens' we read about in scripture (1Kings 8:28, Psalm 148:4)?

Dear Assyrian, I believe the third heaven is the world beyond our Earth. The first heaven had a boundary called a firmament, which protected it from the water into which it was placed. Our Earth is protected from the vacuum of Space by the atmosphere which surrounds us. The third heaven is byond our earth.

Assy:>>In all of the passages you refer to in Genesis the Hebrew word for heaven is plural, heavens, it doesn't actually have a singular form. It is important not to read too much either way into heaven being plural or singular and especially into English translation that appear to distinguish between plural and singular. Genesis 1&2 does not actually describe a sequence of each individual heaven being created after another, after another. You could interpret it that way, but it is not specified by the text.

I use the KJV of Scripture, since it is the most read of all the versions. It says heaven (singular) in Genesis 1 and does not use the word heavenS (plural) until Genesis 2.

Assy:>>You also seem to see a series of three creation events in Genesis 1:6-8 and Genesis 2:4 that is not at all clear from the text, and is not one of the more usual interpretations of the text. Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created... What are the 'these' in Gen 2:4 it is not describing the heavens and the earth being created yet again, but it is referring to an account of the creation out the verse itself and describing it as the 'genealogy' or 'generations' of the heavens and the earth. The two most common interpretation are that it is referring to either the description of creation in Genesis 1 or the description that follows it in in Genesis 2.

I disagree since it is speaking of the THIRD Day, the Day the first earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that the first Earth was made the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:5 confirms that the narrative is speaking of the THIRD Day, since it was BEFORE the plants grew, which is the 3rd Day, according to Genesis 1:12.

Then we have the second part of the verse, Gen 2:4 ...in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Again this can simply be a temporal clause to the first part of the verse describing the when of 'when they were created', when they were created, in the day that... Alternatively, Gen 2:4a can refer back to Genesis 1 while the second half of the verse is actually the start of the following creation account Gen 2:4b In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up...

See? This verse is taking us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day. This is showing us that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day. Adam was later "created in God's Image" or born Spiritually on the 6th Day. Adam was NOT created Spiritually until the 6th Day because he was born Spiritually at the SAME time as Eve. Eve was NOT made until the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22

Aman:>>Jesus tells us that He is going to prepare a place for us and that if it was not so, He would have told us. John 14:2
​

Assy:>>Aren't these dwelling place/mansion in his father's house? Thanks for sharing this, I enjoy discussing the different way people approach these texts.

Me too. I appreciate you replying to my posts and telling me what you think. My wish is to share what God has shown me with other Christians. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Calminian]

God told Noah that He was going to destroy the violent men of the first world "with the Earth". Genesis 6:13
God told Noah "neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." in Genesis 9:11
God tells us in the New Testament that He "spared NOT the old world" in ll Peter 2:5
God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished, which in Greek means destroyed, totally. ll Peter 3:6
Isaiah tells us the world was "clean dissolved" and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

The first heaven, made on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) is no more for it was totally destroyed in the Flood.
Our present second heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The third heaven, made on the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4) is where Jesus is today, physically. It is also called the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1. Paul speaks of the THIRD Heaven in ll Corinthians 12:2....

You lost me. Where does is say the heaven were destroyed in the flood?

Also in what sense are you understanding the term earth, in Gen. 6:13?

 

[Aman777]

Cal:>>You lost me. Where does is say the heaven were destroyed in the flood?

Dear Cal, God tells us in ll Peter 2:5 that He "spared NOT the old world." The word "world" is the Greek word KOSMOS, which indicates that both the heavens and the earth were destroyed.

God tells us the world that "THEN WAS" perished (Greek-destroyed, totally.) ll Peter 3:6 The next verse speaks of the heavens and earth "WHICH ARE NOW" which indicates the world that THEN WAS is different from the heavens and earth WHICH ARE NOW, at the time of Christ.

Isaiah tells us the earth was "clean dissolved" after the windows were opened and yet some people teach that our world is the only world God made. Isaiah 24:19

Cal:>>Also in what sense are you understanding the term earth, in Gen. 6:13?

God is telling Noah that He is going to destroy the violent people "with the Earth" indicating that He will destroy the first earth AND the violent people

Also, OUR earth is NOT surrounded by water, as was the first heaven made on the 2nd Day. Genesis 1:6-8 That's because our earth was not made until the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4 AND Genesis 1:9-10

I know that the traditional view is that we live on the same earth as Adam, but Scripture does not agree. Read the Bible for what it says instead of what you have been told it says and you should be able to see that Adam's world was totally destroyed in the Flood.

Understanding this view shows that we inherited our human intelligence from Adam who never took a step on our earth. This reveals that Godless Evolution cannot explain how and when we changed from animal to human intelligence.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Calminian]

Cal:>>You lost me. Where does is say the heaven were destroyed in the flood?

Dear Cal, God tells us in ll Peter 2:5 that He "spared NOT the old world." The word "world" is the Greek word KOSMOS, which indicates that both the heavens and the earth were destroyed.

No I don't think that's what's going on there. I had a feeling this something pulled from somewhere else an then reapplied.

kosmos is a bit more general than this, just as the term "world" in english is. There is no indication in either the old or new testament that the heavens were destroyed in the Flood. That's not what Peter or Noah were saying. Our world was destroyed in the sense that we are land creatures.

By the way, from the Mounce Greek Dictionary, just to show the range of the word.

G3180 | S G2889 kosmos 186x
(1) pr. order, regular disposition; ornament, decoration, embellishment, 1 Pet. 3:3; (2) the world, the material universe, Mt. 13:35; the world, the aggregate of sensitive existence, 1 Cor. 4:9; the lower world, the earth, Mk. 16:15; the world, the aggregate of mankind, Mt. 5:14; the world, the public, Jn. 7:4; in NT the present order of things, the secular world, Jn. 18:36; the human race external to the Jewish nation, the heathen world, Rom. 11:12, 15; the world external to the Christian body, 1 Jn. 3:1, 13; the world or material system of the Mosaic covenant, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20 ˘ universe; world.​

Perhaps you're thinking that because we get our english term cosmos, from this word, perhaps their meanings are identical, but it's not the case.

Cal:>>Also in what sense are you understanding the term earth, in Gen. 6:13?

God is telling Noah that He is going to destroy the violent people "with the Earth" indicating that He will destroy the first earth AND the violent people....

I'm going to disagree on this also. The hebrew word here is erets and means land. Gen. 1:10 God called the dry ground “land,” Earth in the Bible means land and is always spoken of as distinct from the sea and the heavens. For instance, Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....

Not to be contrarian, as I fully appreciate thinking outside the box, but these seem to be theories you're forcing scripture to adhere to. Not sure if you're angling for the gap theory, but either way, I would disagree with the two premises above. Genesis speaks of the destruction of the land (erets) along with mankind. Peter talked about the destruction of the kosmos (world) but this didn't include the heavens or the sea for that matter, as genesis is clear the sea prevailed over the earth (land).

The Bible speaks more about the land to us, because we are creatures of the land. Therefore in reference to things about the land the Bible writers could use terms of totality like the term world. For instance,

Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

When Jesus was taken up to a high mountain, he was shown the kingdoms of the world (kosmos). But that's not to say he was shown the kingdoms of the heavens also. That would make no sense. Here kosmos means entire earth or all the kingdoms of the land.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Cal:>>You lost me. Where does is say the heaven were destroyed in the flood?

Dear Cal, God tells us in ll Peter 2:5 that He "spared NOT the old world." The word "world" is the Greek word KOSMOS, which indicates that both the heavens and the earth were destroyed.
​

Cal:>>No I don't think that's what's going on there. I had a feeling this something pulled from somewhere else an then reapplied.

Dear Cal, I read your entire post but decided to answer your post on the two main points. It is easily answered if you will read Genesis 1:6-8 and see that Scripture tells us the firmament or heaven, as God calls it, was made in the midst or middle of water with water above and below it.

The entire first world was contained within the boundary of the firmament, including the earth which was not made until the third day. (Genesis 1:9-10 and Genesis 2:4) When you have water above and below an object, water completely surrounds it. When the windows on high were opened, and the fountains of the great deep brought forth their water, (Genesis 7:11) the interior of the firmament was completely filled with water.

The Ark floated to the top of the firmament which was sinking in the great deep. The Ark was 15 cubits (22.5 feet) above the mountains of that world, on the 150th day after the flood began. Genesis 7:24. On the SAME 150th day after the flood began, the Ark rested on the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8:4

I believe the Ark floated out of the boundary of the firmament into Lake Van in the mountains of Ararat. Remember that the Ark had a roof which protected it from the water which rained down upon it from the open windows, and a bottom which protected in from the water which was below it. Noah sent forth a Raven which did NOT return to the Ark, but flew to the shore of the Lake. When Noah sent forth a Dove the Dove returned to the Ark, but ONE week later, it was sent forth and returned to the Ark with an Olive leaf in it's beak. Genesis 8:11

I believe the Dove got that Olive leaf as the Ark came closer to the shore of the Lake. Otherwise, one must believe that in ONE week, an Olive Tree seed, germinated, grew limbs, and put forth leaves, in the deep mud of our flooded planet. This still does Not explain why the Raven did not return to the Ark.

The traditional religious theory is that the Ark landed on the top of Mt. Ararat, but it makes much more sense that the big boat, which was 450 feet long, landed in a large lake rather than on top of a mountain. The mountains of Ararat can be compared to a mountain chain, like the Appalachian mountains in the U.S. Lake Van is in the mountains of Ararat but is not on Mt. Ararat.

Whatever happened, Isaiah tells us that world was "clean dissolved" and that the story of the flood is a Snare or Trap which God set at the beginning of Genesis 8. The world is Adam is no more. Anyone looking for remains should look in Lake Van.

Peter speaks of the Scoffers in the last days in ll Peter 3:5-6:

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (Greek-destroyed, totally)

Cal:>>Also in what sense are you understanding the term earth, in Gen. 6:13?

Aman:>>God is telling Noah that He is going to destroy the violent people "with the Earth" indicating that He will destroy the first earth AND the violent people....

The first earth also perished in the Flood for it was inside the firmament, which was made the SECOND Day. Genesis 1:6-8 Our earth is a part of our Cosmos and has Never suffered a Global Flood. That should be obvious since we are still on our earth. Our earth was made the THIRD Day, the SAME Day the first Earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 and Genesis 2:4.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Calminian]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Cal:>>You lost me. Where does is say the heaven were destroyed in the flood?

Dear Cal, God tells us in ll Peter 2:5 that He "spared NOT the old world." The word "world" is the Greek word KOSMOS, which indicates that both the heavens and the earth were destroyed.
​

Cal:>>No I don't think that's what's going on there. I had a feeling this something pulled from somewhere else an then reapplied.

Dear Cal, I read your entire post but decided to answer your post on the two main points. It is easily answered if you will read Genesis 1:6-8 and see that Scripture tells us the firmament or heaven, as God calls it, was made in the midst or middle of water with water above and below it.

The entire first world was contained within the boundary of the firmament, including the earth which was not made until the third day. (Genesis 1:9-10 and Genesis 2:4) When you have water above and below an object, water completely surrounds it. When the windows on high were opened, and the fountains of the great deep brought forth their water, (Genesis 7:11) the interior of the firmament was completely filled with water.

There are two major views of the expanse of Gen. 1:6-8 among biblical creationists. Many believe this was an atmospheric expanse, meaning it was something very local to planet earth. Other believe it was an cosmic expanse which sounds more like what you're describing. I'm also of the latter that believes the expanse of Genesis 1:6-8 was a cosmic expansion, rather than a local atmospheric one. Russell Humphreys of ICR was the first to really put forth this view, and many creationists now look at verses 6-8 differently.

Now the former group believes upper waters were held high in our atmosphere and later emptied out during the flood. But the latter group, myself included, believes that the waters above are still up there, and are not waters in the sense of an ocean, but rather the primordial waters that were used to form the earth and other things.

Exegetically, I feel the expanse must refer to the cosmos, since the stars were set in that expanse on day 4. Stars are not in our atmosphere, and therefore, the expanse cannot be that local. And, therefore, the waters must still be up there. In fact a Psalmist agrees with me.

Psa. 148:4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
And you waters above the heavens!​

This guy was certainly referring to Genesis 1:6-8.

Now if you want to say the ark landed in a lake somewhere up in the mountains, that's fine. Nothing to really back it up, though.

Again, though, you are misunderstanding the hebrew word for earth. It is erets, which means land. We know this because Genesis 1:10 explicitly calls the earth dry land. There's really nothing to wrestle with on that. The land was destroyed in the flood, which makes sense, as mountains and valleys were moved around.

Your entire theory is based on the idea that erets means planet earth. It does not. In light of that, I don't see how your theory can stand.

 

[Aman777]

Cal:>>Now if you want to say the ark landed in a lake somewhere up in the mountains, that's fine. Nothing to really back it up, though.

Dear Cal, This interpretation agrees with scripture, science, and history. Itis not a religiious belief but is supported by empirical evidence. The evidence is shown below:

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

This is evidence of the arrival of the FIRST farmers on this Planet. Notice that it is in the middle of the fertile crescent, the cradle of civilization, in Northern Mesopotamia, just south of the mountains of Ararat. This is important since there is no evidence of farming on this planet before Noah arrived. Also remember that Adam farmed with NO evolution. This is evidence that Adam had superior intelligence to prehistoric people.

If you don't believe me then try to find an earlier human civilization, or human city which is older than these. The first human cities are listed in Genesis 10:10 and secular science and history agree with God's Holy Word.

Lucy, the first being to walk on two feet, lived some 4 million years ago. For 99% of the time since then, mankind wandered the earth but Never grew himself anything to eat, nor built himself a home, a village, or showed ANY of the traits of Cain's descendants on the first earth. Genesis 4

In less than 1% of the time since Lucy, mankind has gone from Caves to the Moon and back. Can you show us any evidence which refutes this view? In more than 15 years online, NO Darwinist has been able to refute this Scriptural fact. It is PROOF of God for only God could have correctly told us our history which agrees in every way with every discovery of mankind, 3k years ago.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Dear Cal, Since I have not met the mininmum number of posts to allow links, the link failed to show up on my posts. Here is the address for it.

fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

 

[Assyrian]

Hi Aman, could you try to use the quote button

to distinguish between your own reply and the text you are quoting. It would make you posts much clearer, and much easier for us to reply to. Just highlight the text you want in the quote tags and press the button. It is worth using preview to check the results.

Dear Assyrian, Yes. The first firmament or heaven was totally destroyed in the Flood.

Is there a passage in scripture you get that from? - Nevermind you mention it further down

Not so. The first Earth was destroyed and sank in the waters in which it was placed.

And yet it emerged again when the waters receded. The bible still refers to this as the first earth Revelation 21:1.

Not so. Our earth was populated by the humans from the earth of Adam.

Are you talking about a different planet existing at the same time? If you are suggesting different earths existed at the same time you need to explain it clearly.

God told Noah he was going to destroy the Earth and He did. Gen. 6:13

Not if the word translated earth actually meant a land in the flood account. Look it up in a concordance, erets means land much more often than it means earth.

Exodus 10:15 They covered the face of the whole land, so that the land was darkened, and they ate all the plants in the land and all the fruit of the trees that the hail had left. Not a green thing remained, neither tree nor plant of the field, through all the land of Egypt. The word land, erets, is the same word translated earth in Genesis 6:13, As the AV put it Exodus 10:15 they covered the face of the whole earth. But it wasn't talking about whole planet, just the land of Egypt.

Do a bible search for the words for destroy (H7843 shachath) and earth (H776 erets).
1 Samuel 6:5 Therefore ye shall make images of your hemorrhoids and images of your mice that mar (shachath) the land (erets). Were the mice destroying the whole planet?

The entire firmament or first heaven (kosmos) was totally destroyed as the word "perished" shows. It was "clean dissolved" according to Isaiah.

The issue isn't what the word perished means but what the word kosmos means in that passage. Peter uses the word ouranos to describe the heavens, not kosmos. Why would he talked about 'the world of the ungodly' in 2Peter 2:5 if kosmos meant the firmament, that wasn't where ungodly people lived. If you want to use Isaiah as confirmation you would need to show that he was talking about the same events as Peter.

If you want scriptural evidence we are living in Earth 1.0, look at that passage you refer to in We are living in the first earth.

I agree that the first earth, the earth of Adam has passed away along with it's sea. I see nothing which says that we are living on the SAME earth which was completely destroyed.

We are living on the same earth Revelation shows us it hasn't passed away yet. John is describing a vision of the future. Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. When the first earth passes away it will be replaced by the new heavens and new earth, with the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven

I agree, but look at the "SNARE".

Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the SNARE:

Following is the "SNARE". It is the story of the Flood.

for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

These verses could NOT be speaking of the future, for it would mean that God lied to Noah when He told him that a flood would never destroy the earth AGAIN. Genesis 9:11 The verses are speaking of the Snare or Trap, which God set to catch the all knowing, atheist scientists of the last days. It is PROOF that science is ignoring God's Truth.

Only if it is a flood of water that is poured from the windows of heaven. The phraseology is certainly pointing back to the flood story in its warning of God pouring out judgement from heaven, but Jesus pointed back to the flood to warn about future judgement too. Don't forget 'windows of heaven' are used to describe blessing being poured out too (Mal 3:10), while the destruction of Sodom is describe as fire from heaven, while in Revelation it is bowls of wrath being poured on the earth.

I shall answer the rest of your post in another post.

In Love,
Aman

Here we go:

Dear Assyrian, I believe the third heaven is the world beyond our Earth. The first heaven had a boundary called a firmament, which protected it from the water into which it was placed. Our Earth is protected from the vacuum of Space by the atmosphere which surrounds us. The third heaven is byond our earth.

Personally I think the waters above the firmament refer to rain clouds but I have come across a wide range of different interpretations of the passage.

I use the KJV of Scripture, since it is the most read of all the versions. It says heaven (singular) in Genesis 1 and does not use the word heavenS (plural) until Genesis 2.

It is an inconsistency in their translation, the Hebrew is the same in both.

I disagree since it is speaking of the THIRD Day, the Day the first earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that the first Earth was made the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:5 confirms that the narrative is speaking of the THIRD Day, since it was BEFORE the plants grew, which is the 3rd Day, according to Genesis 1:12.

You don't think the first earth was made on the first day in Gen 1:1? I can see why you are trying to align the creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 that way, but the bible doesn't say Genesis 2 is set on day three of Genesis 1. One of the issues we have to deal with in understanding Genesis is that two accounts describe the events in two different orders. Most creationists simply deny that Genesis 2 presents a sequence of events at all, it does. Others rearrange the order of events, claim Gen 2:5 was talkingabout differnt type of plants to the one created on the third day or claim God created the animals twice. I think the two accounts are describing the creation in metaphor and parable and it simply isn't about the historical timetable. Yours is a different solution again, but I think it creates an even bigger problem, you end up with two separate creations of man, two Adams. It makes a lot more sense if we have two different ways of describing how God created man in his image breathing his breath into us. The bible does talk of two different Adams, but one of them is Christ. And when Jesus talks of the creation of man he goes straight from Genesis 1:27 to quoting 2:24. He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Matt 19:4

See? This verse is taking us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day. This is showing us that man was formed of the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day. Adam was later "created in God's Image" or born Spiritually on the 6th Day. Adam was NOT created Spiritually until the 6th Day because he was born Spiritually at the SAME time as Eve. Eve was NOT made until the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22

There is no suggestion Adam was born spiritually when Eve was formed, while Eve is described as flesh of Adam's flesh and bone of his bone. You can see a spiritual dimension in Adam's creation in the image and likeness of God in Genesis 1 but you can see it too in God breathing his own breath into Adam's nostrils in Genesis 2.

Me too. I appreciate you replying to my posts and telling me what you think. My wish is to share what God has shown me with other Christians. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

Blessings, Assyrian.

 

[Aman777]

Assyrian:>>Hi Aman, could you try to use the quote button to distinguish between your own reply and the text you are quoting. It would make you posts much clearer, and much easier for us to reply to. Just highlight the text you want in the quote tags and press the button. It is worth using preview to check the results.

Dear Assyrian, Thanks for the info. I'm new.

Assy:>>Is there a passage in scripture you get that from? - Nevermind you mention it further down

And yet it emerged again when the waters receded. The bible still refers to this as the first earth Revelation 21:1.

Are you talking about a different planet existing at the same time? If you are suggesting different earths existed at the same time you need to explain it clearly.

Not if the word translated earth actually meant a land in the flood account. Look it up in a concordance, erets means land much more often than it means earth.

I am speaking of an entirely different land which Adam lived on. It was a land which was inside the firmament, made on the 2nd Day, and placed in the midst of water. I realize that this description is crude but try to picture this firmament as a giant plastic bubble.

Assy:>>Exodus 10:15 They covered the face of the whole land, so that the land was darkened, and they ate all the plants in the land and all the fruit of the trees that the hail had left. Not a green thing remained, neither tree nor plant of the field, through all the land of Egypt. The word land, erets, is the same word translated earth in Genesis 6:13, As the AV put it Exodus 10:15 they covered the face of the whole earth. But it wasn't talking about whole planet, just the land of Egypt.

I understand the word earth is the Hebrew word for land. The land of Adam was dissolved in the firmament or boundary of the first heaven or giant bubble. It was not on a different planet, but an entirely different world, which was totally surrounded by and later destroyed in the flood.

Assy:>>Do a bible search for the words for destroy (H7843 shachath) and earth (H776 erets).
1 Samuel 6:5 Therefore ye shall make images of your hemorrhoids and images of your mice that mar (shachath) the land (erets). Were the mice destroying the whole planet?

The issue isn't what the word perished means but what the word kosmos means in that passage. Peter uses the word ouranos to describe the heavens, not kosmos. Why would he talked about 'the world of the ungodly' in 2Peter 2:5 if kosmos meant the firmament, that wasn't where ungodly people lived. If you want to use Isaiah as confirmation you would need to show that he was talking about the same events as Peter.

Excuse the crude description but the giant plastic bubble perished, along with the earth or land, which was placed in it. It was the kosmos or entire world of Adam.

Assy:>>We are living on the same earth Revelation shows us it hasn't passed away yet. John is describing a vision of the future. Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. When the first earth passes away it will be replaced by the new heavens and new earth, with the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven

Or, Rev. 21:1 is simply stating what happened to the bubble which contained the entire world of Adam. This also explains the 3rd Heaven.

Assy:>>Only if it is a flood of water that is poured from the windows of heaven. The phraseology is certainly pointing back to the flood story in its warning of God pouring out judgement from heaven, but Jesus pointed back to the flood to warn about future judgement too. Don't forget 'windows of heaven' are used to describe blessing being poured out too (Mal 3:10), while the destruction of Sodom is describe as fire from heaven, while in Revelation it is bowls of wrath being poured on the earth.

The water entered the giant plastic bubble in the windows on top. When the bubble filled with water, the Ark floated out and arrived in Lake Van, a huge Lake in the mountains of Ararat. This explains WHY human intelligencce suddenly arrived in that area.

Assy:>>Here we go:

Personally I think the waters above the firmament refer to rain clouds but I have come across a wide range of different interpretations of the passage.

It is an inconsistency in their translation, the Hebrew is the same in both.

You don't think the first earth was made on the first day in Gen 1:1?

No. The first earth was made the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:9-10

Assy:>>I can see why you are trying to align the creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 that way, but the bible doesn't say Genesis 2 is set on day three of Genesis 1.

Genesis 2:4 tells us that other heavenS (Plural) were made on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the first earth was made. This account of the creation of other heavens is adding information to the events of the 3rd Day. ie. Gen. 2:5 tells us these verses are speaking of a time BEFORE the plants grew. The plants grew on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12

Assy:>>One of the issues we have to deal with in understanding Genesis is that two accounts describe the events in two different orders.

Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:3 is telling us the complete HISTORY of the creation, from the beginnning until God ends ALL of His work on the 7th Day, which is future. ONLY God could have told us the History of His Creation so long ago. God sees the end from the beginning.

Assy:>>Most creationists simply deny that Genesis 2 presents a sequence of events at all, it does. Others rearrange the order of events, claim Gen 2:5 was talkingabout differnt type of plants to the one created on the third day or claim God created the animals twice. I think the two accounts are describing the creation in metaphor and parable and it simply isn't about the historical timetable. Yours is a different solution again, but I think it creates an even bigger problem, you end up with two separate creations of man, two Adams. It makes a lot more sense if we have two different ways of describing how God created man in his image breathing his breath into us. The bible does talk of two different Adams, but one of them is Christ. And when Jesus talks of the creation of man he goes straight from Genesis 1:27 to quoting 2:24. He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Matt 19:4

Genesis 2:4 takes us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day, add details such as this is the Day man was made, and then the narrative continues until it STOPS at Genesis 1:27 for God is STILL creating Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ. The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are PROPECY of future events which will take place at the end of the present 6th Creative Day or Age.

Assy:>>There is no suggestion Adam was born spiritually when Eve was formed, while Eve is described as flesh of Adam's flesh and bone of his bone. You can see a spiritual dimension in Adam's creation in the image and likeness of God in Genesis 1 but you can see it too in God breathing his own breath into Adam's nostrils in Genesis 2.

Genesis 2:4 tells us of the "formation" of Adam physically. Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:1-2 tells us of the Spiritual Creation of Adam and Eve, in God's Image or In Christ. Adam was born again AFTER Cain killed Abel. Like all men, he was first made physically, and afterward Spiritually. I can hardly wait to meet Adam and Eve in heaven.

Assy:>>Blessings, Assyrian.

Thanks. I hope this helps. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

I am speaking of an entirely different land which Adam lived on. It was a land which was inside the firmament, made on the 2nd Day, and placed in the midst of water. I realize that this description is crude but try to picture this firmament as a giant plastic bubble.

We'll never get the picture exactly right. What's important to think about is what the early churches believed because the Disciples wrote many letters to the churches to correct their beliefs that strayed from what Jesus taught them directly. So the best understanding about what Jesus believed to be important can be found in the letters to the churches.

The early church believed that a flood came and "re-booted" the earth. The details didn't seem to be important to the disciples. We all should take our clues from that. The point of this link is that the topic of "flood" doesn't come up.
The Letters To The Seven Churches

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

I am speaking of an entirely different land which Adam lived on. It was a land which was inside the firmament, made on the 2nd Day, and placed in the midst of water. I realize that this description is crude but try to picture this firmament as a giant plastic bubble.
​

Sky:>>We'll never get the picture exactly right.

Dear Sky, That is why I said it was a crude description. Since Isaiah tells us it was "clean dissolved" the plastic bubble doesn't fit. The name firmament indicates it was a solid boundary though.

Sky:>>What's important to think about is what the early churches believed because the Disciples wrote many letters to the churches to correct their beliefs that strayed from what Jesus taught them directly. So the best understanding about what Jesus believed to be important can be found in the letters to the churches.

The apostle Peter tells us in ll Peter 2 that God "spared not" the old world and in ll Peter 3 tells us the first world was "in the water and out of the water". Doesn't sound like our world, since we are on dry land.

Sky:>>The early church believed that a flood came and "re-booted" the earth. The details didn't seem to be important to the disciples. We all should take our clues from that. The point of this link is that the topic of "flood" doesn't come up.

Pre-scientific people would have NO idea of the Truth of Genesis. Today's science is just now learning some of the facts listed in Genesis. That's because God's superior intelligence level is just now being understood.

The last argument between Church and Science is whether or not the first world was totally destroyed in the Flood and that our world will be burned. The Scoffers of the last days will NOT believe God's Holy Word, according to ll Peter 3:3-7 Scientists will be "willingly ignorant" of this Scriptural fact. In order for them to be willingly ignorant, someone will have to tell them, since today, they are just ignorant.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Assyrian]

Dear Assyrian, Thanks for the info. I'm new.

Yes I realised and welcome to the forum.

I am speaking of an entirely different land which Adam lived on. It was a land which was inside the firmament, made on the 2nd Day, and placed in the midst of water. I realize that this description is crude but try to picture this firmament as a giant plastic bubble.

Are we talking about a floating island up in the sky?

I understand the word earth is the Hebrew word for land. The land of Adam was dissolved in the firmament or boundary of the first heaven or giant bubble. It was not on a different planet, but an entirely different world, which was totally surrounded by and later destroyed in the flood.

Aren't different planets entirely different worlds? You need to try to describe your cosmology more clearly because you are trying to communicate very unusual ideas people haven't come across before. I don't think there are are any references in the bible to other lands in the firmament, there were different lands, but they could be reached by camel or boat: the land of Egypt, the land of Israel, the land of the Philistines, the land of Edom, the land of the Amorites.

Excuse the crude description but the giant plastic bubble perished, along with the earth or land, which was placed in it. It was the kosmos or entire world of Adam.

Scripture doesn't say the firmament perished, it is still showing God's workmanship form the creation. Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Anyway, is your idea that there were two earths in Genesis 1:7 to 9?
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the firmament. And it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry land Earth.
There is the earth God created in verse 9 the dry land that appeared from the water under heaven. Are you also saying there was another earth, Adam's earth, somewhere up above that floating around in the firmament God made in verse 7? You would really need some evidence for these claims.

Or, Rev. 21:1 is simply stating what happened to the bubble which contained the entire world of Adam. This also explains the 3rd Heaven.

The scriptural ideas of the heavens of heavens and the highest heavens explains the third heaven too. Revelation 21 is a prophetic vision of the future, the wedding feast of the lamb, the bride of Christ coming down from heaven and the end of death, mourning and pain. It is not a description of Noah's flood.

The water entered the giant plastic bubble in the windows on top. When the bubble filled with water, the Ark floated out and arrived in Lake Van, a huge Lake in the mountains of Ararat. This explains WHY human intelligencce suddenly arrived in that area.

You seem to just be repeating you cosmology rather than addressing my points.

No. The first earth was made the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:9-10

When was the second earth made?

Genesis 2:4 tells us that other heavenS (Plural) were made on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the first earth was made. This account of the creation of other heavens is adding information to the events of the 3rd Day. ie. Gen. 2:5 tells us these verses are speaking of a time BEFORE the plants grew. The plants grew on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12

It is still you identifying Genesis 2:5 with Genesis 1:12, the bible doesn't tell you to link the two chapters that way. Genesis does describe the creation of plants on day three, but it also tells you man, Adam was created on day six. You explain away one set by stretching out the creation of Adam but insist we have to identify the plants Genesis 2:5 as happening the same day we are told plants were created in Genesis.

Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:3 is telling us the complete HISTORY of the creation, from the beginnning until God ends ALL of His work on the 7th Day, which is future. ONLY God could have told us the History of His Creation so long ago. God sees the end from the beginning.

I do agree the seventh day is prophetic.

Genesis 2:4 takes us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day, add details such as this is the Day man was made, and then the narrative continues until it STOPS at Genesis 1:27 for God is STILL creating Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ. The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are PROPECY of future events which will take place at the end of the present 6th Creative Day or Age.

Genesis 1 describes God creating man on the sixth day, not starting back on day three. However if you are happy with God using gradual processes in the creation not mention in Genesis 1 and that his creation described on those days is not limited to those days, then you should have a lot less trouble with God using evolution

What you need to realise is that there are different ways to understand the text, other Christians have wrestled with the text as you have, but have come up with different understandings of the text, different answers to the questions it raises.

Genesis 2:4 tells us of the "formation" of Adam physically. Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:1-2 tells us of the Spiritual Creation of Adam and Eve, in God's Image or In Christ. Adam was born again AFTER Cain killed Abel. Like all men, he was first made physically, and afterward Spiritually. I can hardly wait to meet Adam and Eve in heaven.

Like I said this is an arbitrary assigning of physical birth to one creation account and spiritual birth to the other. You could as easily have it the other way round, or way that they both describe physical creation. The bible does say our Spiritual creation comes second, but it tell us the spiritual creation comes with the second Adam Christ.

Assy:>>Blessings, Assyrian.

Thanks. I hope this helps. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Calminian]

Aman, there's nothing wrong with wrestling with scripture and formulating theories about our origins and early existence. My only caution is to stay flexible. If you believe in God's word, allow it to shape your views and thus your theories.

There are 2 issues I focused on in regard to your theory you're presenting. The destruction of the 1st heaven which you say happened in the flood. And the meaning of the term "earth" in scripture. You haven't defended your positions in these areas yet.

Now you bring up science and I would caution you about the usefulness of science as well. Scientific theories come and go. I trust the history in the Genesis record more than any naturalistic theory out there. The supernatural explanations in scripture are much more believable and seem to fit better with what I now observe in the present than the naturalistic theories which have to go back some 13 billion years before coming to a dead end. I believe in science, but origins science I have great doubts about.