Adam's Reward

[Jonaitis]

*You are in the Calvinist forum*

In the Covenant of Works, we understand what effect his disobedience rendered, but what was exactly Adam's reward if he obeyed? Life is the obvious answer, but in what way?

It may seem of little importance, but it is something that I have been curious about.

Some hold that he would earn life for all; others that he would preserve what life they already enjoyed in Eden for all; while I've heard some take it that Adam would have kept life by his obedience, but his posterity was able to fall by their own disobedience.

What say you? Where is the biblical evidence for your position?

 

[The Righterzpen]

*You are in the Calvinist forum*

In the Covenant of Works, we understand what effect his disobedience rendered, but what was exactly Adam's reward if he obeyed? Life is the obvious answer, but in what way?

It may seem of little importance, but it is something that I have been curious about.

Some hold that he would earn life for all; others that he would preserve what life they already enjoyed in Eden for all; while I've heard some take it that Adam would have kept life by his obedience, but his posterity was able to fall by their own disobedience.

What say you? Where is the biblical evidence for your position?

I think Adam would have stayed in a state of ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil; so long as he obeyed.

That being said; I think the fall was inevitable because the only purpose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil served, was to clue them into the existence of both. It was not "the tree of good and evil" it was the tree of the knowledge there of.

And being temporal creatures; Adam and Eve could only be corrupted by that knowledge. Scripture says Eve ate the fruit because she wanted to be wise. Scripture also says she was deceived.

So although she wanted to "be wise like God"; she apparently did not "catch" the fact that she could not be wise as God is wise because she does not bear the same attributes as God. God being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and eternal; can not be corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Eve apparently missed that somewhere.

 

[joshua 1 9]

In the Covenant of Works, we understand what effect his disobedience rendered, but what was exactly Adam's reward if he obeyed? Life is the obvious answer, but in what way?

This was the beginning of determinism. The 200 year old debate between Calvin, Wesley, Armenian & Smith continues at to what determinism is. The neurosurgeons point to the frontal lobe as the area of our brain that makes choices and we have abstract thinking that developed a written law 4500 years ago where people were held responsible for the choices they make. No one holds the animals responsible, they are expected to reflect what we consider to be right or wrong. We would have paradise on Earth if Adam and Eve did not listen to the serpent & use their free will (choose) to rebel against God. Earth would be as Heaven is. Eden would have expanded to cover the whole earth.

Now we have a 7,000 year delay for man to being an end to sin. Then there will be a new Heaven and and a new Earth. They will become one. We are to pray Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I think Adam would have stayed in a state of ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil; so long as he obeyed.

They say there is a library in Heaven that contains all wisdom and all knowledge. Whatever we want to know our angel can go there and do the research and bring that information back to us. Even though everyone in Heaven always does the will of God.

 

[The Righterzpen]

They say there is a library in Heaven that contains all wisdom and all knowledge. Whatever we want to know our angel can go there and do the research and bring that information back to us. Even though everyone in Heaven always does the will of God.

I'll study the Scriptures thanks! I would not trust some "angel" that came to me and said "Let me tell you....." LOL - go away!

 

[joshua 1 9]

I'll study the Scriptures thanks! I would not trust some "angel" that came to me and said "Let me tell you....." LOL - go away!

All wisdom and knowledge is hidden in the Bible. Daniel 22 " He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. 22 He reveals the deep and hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him."

Angels do not come to us they are already here waiting for us to give them an assignment. Only everything has to be done according to the will of God. Psalm 91:11 "For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways."

 

[The Righterzpen]

All wisdom and knowledge is hidden in the Bible. Daniel 22 " He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. 22 He reveals the deep and hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him."

Angels do not come to us they are already here waiting for us to give them an assignment. Only everything has to be done according to the will of God. Psalm 91:11 "For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways."

It's not an angel's job to teach us Scripture.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (not some angel).

 

[Jonaitis]

I think Adam would have stayed in a state of ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil; so long as he obeyed.

I agree.

That being said; I think the fall was inevitable because the only purpose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil served, was to clue them into the existence of both. It was not "the tree of good and evil" it was the tree of the knowledge there of.

That's true that the tree was called exactly what would occur after the fall, thus it would appear that it was inevitable for that purpose.

And being temporal creatures; Adam and Eve could only be corrupted by that knowledge. Scripture says Eve ate the fruit because she wanted to be wise. Scripture also says she was deceived.

I don't understand this part; was the knowledge what corrupted them or their corruption that made them aware?

So although she wanted to "be wise like God"; she apparently did not "catch" the fact that she could not be wise as God is wise because she does not bear the same attributes as God. God being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and eternal; can not be corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Eve apparently missed that somewhere.

I'm curious, did she sin in her heart before partaking the fruit (which was the main transgression)?

 

[Jonaitis]

This was the beginning of determinism. The 200 year old debate between Calvin, Wesley, Armenian & Smith continues at to what determinism is. The neurosurgeons point to the frontal lobe as the area of our brain that makes choices and we have abstract thinking that developed a written law 4500 years ago where people were held responsible for the choices they make. No one holds the animals responsible, they are expected to reflect what we consider to be right or wrong. We would have paradise on Earth if Adam and Eve did not listen to the serpent & use their free will (choose) to rebel against God. Earth would be as Heaven is. Eden would have expanded to cover the whole earth.

Now we have a 7,000 year delay for man to being an end to sin. Then there will be a new Heaven and and a new Earth. They will become one. We are to pray Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Sorry, but how does this relate to the question?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I agree.



That's true that the tree was called exactly what would occur after the fall, thus it would appear that it was inevitable for that purpose.



I don't understand this part; was the knowledge what corrupted them or their corruption that made them aware?



I'm curious, did she sin in her heart before partaking the fruit (which was the main transgression)?

It was the knowledge that corrupted them and that corruption made them "now aware". They became corrupted because as created entities, they did not bear the attributes of God. "Evil" that existed in their environment had to be dealt with; but it could only be conquered by God Himself and this is why I said the fall was inevitable. The plan that God came up with; He obviously did so before He created anything. God "being love" as His main "substance" would not have created a world He knew was fundamentally unredeemable. There would have been no point in that.

This of course gets into the question of where did evil come from?
If there is no evil in God; He could not have "created evil".
If there was evil in God, we wouldn't be having this discussion because He would not have been able to create anything. That's the principle of "A kingdom divided against itself won't stand."

So the only other option is that evil was a byproduct of God's creating. "To every action is an (equal) and opposite reaction." God knew that as soon as He created something; the "opposite reaction" to Him would no longer be "theory" it would come into reality. This is what I think God knew the "knowledge of good and evil" to be. Yet God for the characteristics that He is: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal He is incapable of being corrupted by that knowledge.

And when you get into the incarnation; these characteristics of Jesus's Divine nature was the reason he couldn't sin. But on the flip side of that; his human nature was the reason he could. (Are you following me?)

Did Eve sin in her heart before she ate the fruit?

I believe the answer to that question is... probably both "yes" and "no". "No", in that she was deceived; but "yes" in that for what ever reason "Don't eat that fruit" did not fully register. Eve was not a legalist. LOL. This is an exhibition of the ability of independent thought Adam and Eve were created with. I won't use the term "free will" because I don't think that accurately represents their position. You can't really have "free will" with only half of the knowledge. And that's another reason the fall was inevitable. Their world was not black and white.

Now if she was a little more savvy; she would have gone strait to God and said: "I want to be wise, but the serpent said..... What should I do?"
"Don't eat the fruit."
"But how do I get wise than?"
"Here's the beginning of the process. You listen to me, I tell you the truth. The serpent is lying."
"Well what is a lie? I don't understand?"

And yet another demonstration as to why the fall was inevitable.

Adam on the other hand. You notice they weren't expelled from the garden until he ate the fruit. Adam for what ever thought he put into it; or (more likely) information already ascertained from God; was ahead of Eve in the game. Now, why that was? Did it have something to do with his inherent nature, in that men think / process information differently than women? I don't know? Of what ever his process was; he clearly knew that if he ate that fruit, the consequences would not be good. And this is why he is deemed the responsible party.

"And Adam not was deceived; but the woman having been deceived, into the transgression has come." 1 Timothy 2:14

 

[joshua 1 9]

Sorry, but how does this relate to the question?

You asked what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had NOT sinned. I answered that question. The whole earth would have become an Eden. That is what is going to happen after the 1,000 year reign of Christ when we receive a new heaven and a new earth.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The plan that God came up with; He obviously did so before He created anything.

God tells us in Jer 1:12 "I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled." We read in Genesis ch 1 that "God said" then we read that "God saw". Isa 55:11 "my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

God watches over His word to see that His word accomplishes His plan and purpose.

 

[joshua 1 9]

It's not an angel's job to teach us Scripture.

My conversation had to do with the Library in Heaven that contains all wisdom and all knowledge. I am not talking about the Torah or the Bible. The Holy Spirit of God is to be our Teacher and Guide in that regard. 1John2:27b "you do not need anyone to teach you." By definition Angel means: "Messenger" That is their job, that is what they do, they deliver messages to us.

Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gerald Schroeder says there are 200,000 science books in the Harvard Library that explains what we read in the first 32 verses in the Bible. No one is adding anything to what Moses is telling us in Genesis Chapter one. They just go into more detail to explain what Moses is telling us. This is a commentary. The Bible confirms Science and the Scientific Method confirms the Bible. So we can now what is and what is not true.

There are times when Moses may use two or three words. Then later on in the Bible we could have two or three pages that explains those two or three words. I could go into a lot more detail but people here seem to want to keep it simple and more general.

 

[The Righterzpen]

My conversation had to do with the Library in Heaven that contains all wisdom and all knowledge. I am not talking about the Torah or the Bible. The Holy Spirit of God is to be our Teacher and Guide in that regard. 1John2:27b "you do not need anyone to teach you." By definition Angel means: "Messenger" That is their job, that is what they do, they deliver messages to us.

Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gerald Schroeder says there are 200,000 science books in the Harvard Library that explains what we read in the first 32 verses in the Bible. No one is adding anything to what Moses is telling us in Genesis Chapter one. They just go into more detail to explain what Moses is telling us. This is a commentary. The Bible confirms Science and the Scientific Method confirms the Bible. So we can now what is and what is not true.

There are times when Moses may use two or three words. Then later on in the Bible we could have two or three pages that explains those two or three words. I could go into a lot more detail but people here seem to want to keep it simple and more general.

Not sure where you get this idea of angels give us information from some library in heaven. I have never seen that in the Scripture.

I am aware that that word "angolos" in Scripture is also translated "messenger" and that messenger can be human as well as some other entity.

As far as "other entity" "angel". I've found examples of 2 different types of those in the Bible. There's what I'd call "disembodied saint" "angels". Which appears to be what John in Revelation 19:10 encountered. These are the souls of deceased believers.

Then there's non carbon based entities God has created called "angels". And there appear to be different types of these. Some of which their purpose appear to be protecting carbon based life forms from death under certain circumstances. How many stories have we all heard. "This accident happened / the house burned down / the bridge collapsed - I should have died but I didn't" type stories. The reason these people didn't die was because of spiritual forces that protected them. I myself have had that type of experience. I was in a car accident that should have been fatal, but I didn't die.

There's examples of angels like this in the Scriptures that fight wars.

Sometimes people use the term "guardian angel". Are there specific angels "assigned" to particular human beings? I don't know. It's possible.

Then there are also "angels" who bring specific "messages" to certain people at a given time for certain purposes. I had an experience where I may have encountered an entity? I don't know if it was that or a "dream".

It happened after this accident when I was in the hospital. I was in this space that was blackness and this light ripped through the darkness right in front of me. I'm thinking. Oh I must be dead. And this form stood in the light and I was thinking - Oh it's Jesus. So I started walking toward it. I could see the outline of a human figure but I could not see the face. It looked and sounded male. When all the sudden this entity pointed behind me and said: "No go back, your son needs you." I said: "Oh - OK." and I woke up screaming in pain. I don't know when exactly that had happened. There were several occasions I woke up screaming in pain. I was in the ICU for a couple of days. i had multiple broken bones, a head injury, facial injuries. After leaving the ICU, I was in the hospital for a month.

I had a couple of weird things happen to me in the hospital. One of which I don't remember particularly clearly; but I know it happened because a hospital chaplain told me that he was called because I was acting strangely. I thought I was seeing Jesus and I kept telling the hospital staff to go find Him. LOL. I was convinced Jesus would come back in a couple of minutes; He'd just gone to the peds unit to see my son. (3 of us were in this accident - me, husband and son).

I have a vague recollection of two nurses standing in my room. One asks the other. "Who does she want." They were telling me my husband was on floor X and my son was on floor Y. I said: "No I know where they are. Where's Jesus?" And the one said: "Jesus who?" And I said: "Jesus Christ. The guy who rose from the dead. It's Easter Sunday. What's the matter with you people!" (Which was true, the accident happened on Easter Sunday.)

LOL

I didn't remember actually doing that until months later; but I do remember the hospital chaplain talking to me the next day and he asked me if I remembered him coming to see me the night before because the staff had called him; and they called him because I was sure Jesus was walking around the hospital. But I don't remember the first time the chaplain talked to me. So I guess the hospital staff wasn't sure if I was actually hallucinating, or if it was just the fact that I was on massive doses of narcotics? LOL They kept whispering to each other: "Doctors think she has a head injury." LOL - which was true I did. That showed up on an MRI years later - that I'd had a traumatic brain injury. The cerebellum and occipital lobes of my brain had bled.

So, those were my experiences. Now did I actually see an angel? I have no idea. I'm sure Jesus Christ was not walking around the hospital though. LOL.

So, this notion of angels bringing "messages" of some library in heaven? Never heard that one before and never encountered it in the Bible so; I'm a little skeptical. I don't have "angels" bringing me messages in my sleep. I've never dreamt about angels. I've had lots of dreams with Jesus in them. Some of those are a little odd. LOL - so, I don't take a whole lot of stock in my dreams. I know Satan goes about disguising himself as an angel of light - so I'm skeptical of any of that kind of thing and that's why.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This was the beginning of determinism.

Actually determinism begins and ends with God, or stated more accurately determinism is eternal considering God is first agent of cause, the original or first causer of everything that is not Himself.

The 200 year old debate between Calvin, Wesley, Armenian & Smith continues at to what determinism is.

Actually the debate is older than that, and can be traced back at least as far back as Augustine. The difference then was Church Councils sided with Augustine (see The Canons of the Council of Orange).

The neurosurgeons point to the frontal lobe as the area of our brain that makes choices and we have abstract thinking that developed a written law 4500 years ago where people were held responsible for the choices they make.

Actually there is the oral tradition, written tradition, and from Scripture God writes His law on hearts.

No one holds the animals responsible, they are expected to reflect what we consider to be right or wrong.

God is not an animal, He made man in His image, and along with naturally knowing right from wrong is the conscience, but many have seared their conscience.

We would have paradise on Earth if Adam and Eve did not listen to the serpent & use their free will (choose) to rebel against God. Earth would be as Heaven is. Eden would have expanded to cover the whole earth.

Eve sinned before even taking a bite, the serpent placed the seed of doubt putting the consequence into doubt while at the same time telling her she would be autonomous. She was already made in the image of God, but this would increase knowledge and power. She may have reasoned and through it with contempt for God for withholding from her. She exercised by self-determination apart from God, through the sin of doubt to do that which God commanded her not to do.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I don't understand this part; was the knowledge what corrupted them or their corruption that made them aware?

I like your way of thinking. I don't encounter it much, because most people assume it was the other way around, that the knowledge corrupted them.

...but what was exactly Adam's reward if he obeyed?

His reward was that he got to keep the other fruit of the garden. Every day that he didn't take the forbidden fruit he received access to all of the others. We only hear about two of the trees, the forbidden one and the Tree of Life. Most assume that the other fruit was just ordinary fruit. I suspect that they were not. Namely, that Eve thought that a fruit could give her special powers is enough to suggest that she had experienced something with other fruit to suggest that they could do more than sweeten her tongue and fill her belly. The fact that the only two fruit trees mentioned both had special powers would seem to imply that the entire garden was not your garden-variety garden (pardon the pun). One might note that the snake was not exactly your common everyday variety, either.

When Adam took the fruit he was cast into a completely different world, whether it was his world changed, or whether he was cast into something separate. He remained there for the rest of his life, and his progeny were all born there. This was just one fruit out of an entire garden. There's no telling where the others could have led.

 

[joshua 1 9]

God is not an animal, He made man in His image, and along with naturally knowing right from wrong is the conscience, but many have seared their conscience.

You miss the point of the incarnation. God not only wanted to become a part of His creation, Jesus was born in a manger and God became a part of a lowly part of His Creation. Even Jesus humbled himself to the point of death for our sake.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't have "angels" bringing me messages in my sleep.

I had a dream about a daughter that I have in Heaven. That was very clear and vivid. I have had visions of Heaven but I do not see much in a vision. I have had plenty of times that I died or would have died if the angels had not intervened. Starting when I was 12 years old. I can not remember where I learned about the library in Heaven. There are libraries here on Earth that are made to look like the Library in Heaven where all the books are stored. There are lots of references to books in the Bible. For example Rev " Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." Rev 20 12. David talks about books: psalm 139 16 "You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book". This is the book I saw the angel reading when I had the dream about my daughter in Heaven. David talks about a book at least five times in Psalms: 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Revelation 3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels. IN Col 2:3 " that they may know the mystery of God, namely Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." This is the scripture I am talking about for "ALL wisdom and knowledge". This is not hidden from us, this is hidden from those that are perishing. Rev 10:10 "I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour." You can do a google search on Library in Heaven to see what people say about this. Also like I said there are libraries here on Earth that are made to look like the library in Heaven. In the photo I provide are murals on the ceiling could represent portals of people over time that were allowed to look into the Heavenly Library.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Most assume that the other fruit was just ordinary fruit. I suspect that they were not.

The Bible tells us exactly what was in the Garden of Eden (goats, sheep, cattle, barley, olives, figs, grapes ect). The Science of Botany in the Middle East tells us exactly what plants were in the Garden of Eden. This is what Noah saved on his ark. This is what they call domesticated plants and animals. As compared to wild plants and animals there in the middle east. The PhD's have written a few books on this but most of the information is in peer reviews science journals. Eden was what our Science book would call a bio diverse eco system. This is not the whole planet. There are many "Edens" in the world on land and in the sea. This is why Science & Time magazine uses the words Adam, Eve and Edens. Bryan Sykes writes a book about the 7 daughters of Eve. Science calls these haplotypes. There is MtDNA and there Ychromosome haplotypes.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I had a dream about a daughter that I have in Heaven. That was very clear and vivid. I have had visions of Heaven but I do not see much in a vision. I have had plenty of times that I died or would have died if the angels had not intervened. Starting when I was 12 years old. I can not remember where I learned about the library in Heaven. There are libraries here on Earth that are made to look like the Library in Heaven where all the books are stored. There are lots of references to books in the Bible. For example Rev " Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." Rev 20 12. David talks about books: psalm 139 16 "You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book". This is the book I saw the angel reading when I had the dream about my daughter in Heaven. David talks about a book at least five times in Psalms: 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Revelation 3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels. IN Col 2:3 " that they may know the mystery of God, namely Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." This is the scripture I am talking about for "ALL wisdom and knowledge". This is not hidden from us, this is hidden from those that are perishing. Rev 10:10 "I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour." You can do a google search on Library in Heaven to see what people say about this. Also like I said there are libraries here on Earth that are made to look like the library in Heaven. In the photo I provide are murals on the ceiling could represent portals of people over time that were allowed to look into the Heavenly Library.

You agree that Revelation - as well as other parts of the Bible are filled with metaphoric language correct? Jesus is called "the lamb of God" but He didn't appear in heaven as an animal. The "4 horsemen of the apocalypse" is metaphoric. This is all given to us in terms we understand, because we can only relate to God based on the world around us. The Bible speaks of "the book of life" and a book that records people's deeds. Those are the only two "books" mentioned, besides the Bible itself. We can only go by what Scripture tells us and Scripture does not talk about a "library of knowledge".

Now consider this. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal entity - do you think God has the "need" to write everything down in a library, so that He can send an angel to go look something up so they can go tell a human being? God is a spirit and He has the ability to impart directly something to a human that God wants that person to know. Today the knowledge He shares about Himself and His salvation plan comes out of the Bible. But if a human is looking for knowledge of something that's worldly (like how to make solar panels); God gave us minds and the ability to explore creation to discover some of this stuff. Now the idea / inspiration of "let's try X or Y or Z to make a solo panel" very well may have been sparked by the genius of God and that human who "gets the idea" may not even really know where the "inspiration" came from. Knowledge He wants anyone to have He's capable of directly imparting because He doesn't "forget" anything.

So will there be libraries in the recreated heavens and earth? Maybe? Maybe there will be an Internet too? Maybe there will be inter-planetary space travel? Who knows. A library to us is just a symbol of the repository of knowledge; which is something God retains the fullness of, within His very being. Will we ever attain to the fullness of what God knows? The answer to that is actually no; because there is and always will remain a distinction between the Creator and the created.