Adam's Lease -- or whatever it's called

[liferiver]

Awesome post! Very, very good.

The blue paragraph above I'll give you something to think about. Our position changes to be in Christ when we are saved. Satan's position, I argue, did not change but was relagated to "effectively ineffective" (against the believer); but in the New Testament what is his position to the unbeliever (even the orthodox Jew)?

Did it take the cross to make him an "illegal outlaw?" Jesus proclaimed victory because of what He purchased for us -- Satan never had ANYTHING on Jesus. We gained. So thinking of the "illegal outlaw" concept let's look at Genesis 3.

Genesis 3:14-15
So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

​

Now, within this is the prophecy of Jesus bruising the devil's head -- defeating him by securing our righteousness and place in Christ. But let's look at the first part of verse 14.

Verse 14: You are cursed more than all cattle....
​

"Cursed" here is the Hebrew arar. This means "bitterly curse[d]." It means "execrated." This point, arguably, is when Satan became unsavable. Some argue that his expelling from heaven was not the end for him, but by then corrupting God's creation in man and causing the fall, that he became execrated -- forever seperated from God with no chance for redemption.

Hmmm... much food for thought here. Learning lots of stuff here.

Did Satan position change? Maybe a better way to answer this is to see what actually changed for Satan from pre-post cross. Otherwise we may be referring to the same thing but using different terminology.

Think the following changed:

1) He was denied access to accuse the saints day and night before the throne room of God. Previously he was given access legally because of Adam.

2) He was defeated and what you may call relagated to "effectively ineffective"

Does that constitute a position change? To me, the fact that he's defeated and effectively ineffective is enough to constitute so. But I think a lot is just choice of words and what we mean.

About the word illegal outlaw: Interesting study on Genesis 3:14. God pronouncing a curse does already make him an illegal outlaw in a sense. However, the tricky part is reconciling this with the wider context of the other passages in the bible. For example, he is also called god of this world, Jesus in in the wilderness acknowledge "Satan's authority", the kingdoms of this world belong to him and Satan despite being cursed can still stand before God and have a conversation with Him regarding Job.

I think the word illegal outlaw was used because believers who succumbed to fiery darts of devil have been done so illegally because Satan has no right against them.

As for position against unbeliever in the New Testament is. I'm assuming they're not in Christ and therefore the work of Jesus redemption is not effective in their lives. It's potentially effective but not effective until they believe. In which case, they are just like old testament people who do not worship God.

Assuming we're on the same page here: meaning not all are saved, and not all are in Christ.

For universalists among us, where all are saved and in Christ already, then probably it's a different story altogether. I'm not one so I will not venture there.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Maybe a better way to answer this is to see what actually changed for Satan from pre-post cross.

Ok. My answer would be that pre-cross the believer did not have armor, but if they "hid under the wing of God" then they had protection....step out of this protection then they were fair game. Post-cross the believer has the armor of God. We still have protection when we walk correctly, but we have authority backed up by Christ. He bought us, we are His. Those not in Christ are of the devil.

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
​

1) He was denied access to accuse the saints day and night before the throne room of God. Previously he was given access legally because of Adam.

When? Scripture please.

This phrase comes from Revelation 12 (and we also see it in action in Job):

Revelation 12:9-10
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
​

We have two (ah, but perhaps three) options for this description: in the past when Lucifer was cast out of heaven (ref Luke 10:18), or in the future as most of Revelation is prophetic for (btw, not all of the Christian church sees it in this latter way).

First option: what if it was in the past? Well then we can't have Job (or Job is prior to the garden of Eden). (The third option I refer to is this is past, but a close read says nothing about Satan not being allowed back in to talk with God -- it just says that the accuser of the brethren has been cast down.) Second option: what if it is in the future? One could look at the title "great dragon" in the first part of this chapter (Rev 12) and see that the great dragon and the events spoken of are in the tribulation. And it is then (under this eschatology) that the accuser of the brethren is cast down.

I think that the difference between old and new is that we have been bought with a price on the cross. We are now in Christ and He is our righteousness. I don't believe that Satan has been restricted in accusing us before the Father, but that we are blameless of such accusation because Jesus paid the price for our sins. His accusations fall to the ground because Jesus' blood gives the Father just right to say: I cannot see sin in this one. (ref: 1 John 3:9)

(But whether or not Satan has access to speak to God is a minor point in the overall discussion of our position in Christ, our authority given by Christ and any differences between us and the saints of old.)

2) He was defeated and what you may call relagated to "effectively ineffective"

Yes. But let me ask a question for clarity: what do you mean by "defeated?" Hasn't he been this since Lucifer was found to have sin and cast from his place in heaven (or at least from his being cursed in the garden)?

For example, he is also called god of this world, Jesus in in the wilderness acknowledge "Satan's authority", the kingdoms of this world belong to him and Satan despite being cursed can still stand before God and have a conversation with Him regarding Job.

I think the word illegal outlaw was used because believers who succumbed to fiery darts of devil have been done so illegally because Satan has no right against them.

Hmm. What is your definition of "god" when used for the devil being "the god of this world?"

"Satan's authority" is only what we give him. Otherwise he has nothing that relates to authority. And once again (and to the thread's title) we can speak of Adam's Lease -- not a biblical term -- and say that it was passed to Satan. I don't go as far as to say that IF Satan got anything from Adam (in so far as "legal" could be applied), that it was only earth-bound and could not lock God out of this world (or require "permission" for Him to return). The concept of "legal" comes from Covenant. God made no covenant with Satan, nor is any covenant He made transferrable to Satan. Satan has been execrated and cannot inherit the Covenant blessings and end results. What occurred is that Adam is the head, or representative, for mankind. When he sinned by turning from God's command and listening to Satan's lies, he marred all of mankind to the point that we needed to be redeemed from the sin that now touched every human that will ever be born. From the beginning the devil sinned (1 John 3:8) and his purpose was to destroy the work that God was doing in man. He is here to steal, to kill and to destroy. He still is attempting that today. And any man who listens to him is still vulnerable to the effects of that effort.

As for position against unbeliever in the New Testament is. I'm assuming they're not in Christ and therefore the work of Jesus redemption is not effective in their lives. It's potentially effective but not effective until they believe. In which case, they are just like old testament people who do not worship God.

Yes...and even the old testament people who did worship God -- for they were under the Law, and nobody could uphold the whole Law. Therefore they too are reliant upon Christ. He died for them as well as anyone in the future of the cross. Remember: no one enters heaven and comes to the Father except through Christ Jesus.

For universalists among us, where all are saved and in Christ already, then probably it's a different story altogether. I'm not one so I will not venture there.

Let's leave the universalists out of this -- no men are saved until they repent and accept Christ. Christ died for all, but all are not saved. (1 Tim 2:4; Matt 7:13-14)

 

[liferiver]

Ok. My answer would be that pre-cross the believer did not have armor, but if they "hid under the wing of God" then they had protection....step out of this protection then they were fair game. Post-cross the believer has the armor of God. We still have protection when we walk correctly, but we have authority backed up by Christ. He bought us, we are His. Those not in Christ are of the devil.

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
​

When? Scripture please.

This phrase comes from Revelation 12 (and we also see it in action in Job):

Yup exactly. Scriptures are Rev 12 and Job 1. But I'm really open to all the rest of the 3 alternative interpretations for both the books. I'm not dogmatic about this and for the matter, even the book of revelations.

I think that the difference between old and new is that we have been bought with a price on the cross. We are now in Christ and He is our righteousness. I don't believe that Satan has been restricted in accusing us before the Father, but that we are blameless of such accusation because Jesus paid the price for our sins. His accusations fall to the ground because Jesus' blood gives the Father just right to say: I cannot see sin in this one. (ref: 1 John 3:9)

Totally agreed and well said. He has not been restricted at all. He is unable to accuse us anymore because we're righteous.

But in the past he had access to accuse us before God. But I think we may differ here accordingly to differing interpretations. But I'm fine with that; like you say it's minor.

Yes. But let me ask a question for clarity: what do you mean by "defeated?" Hasn't he been this since Lucifer was found to have sin and cast from his place in heaven (or at least from his being cursed in the garden)?

I think one of the clearest scripture is in Col 2:15, that's what' I meant by defeated.

Yes according to your word study definition of cursed in earlier post, it certainly means defeated. However I'd stop short in using that as a sole premise to formulate a doctrine. Instead I usually like to find a several passages (supporting, and not so supporting or even contradictory) to tie everything together.

Hmm. What is your definition of "god" when used for the devil being "the god of this world?"

You know Blessed Man, I'll prefer to use the titles of scriptures gives instead of my definition of god. I think it's reasonable that "god of this world" is able to promises the world to Jesus in the wilderness. He's also called prince of this world. He is also called ruler of this world. All these titles presupposes some sort of power and even authority

I would think Satan got this title where Adam's fell. So tying in with the curse in Genesis, he's a "defeated" god this world, who is also a "defeated" prince of this world, that controls the kingdoms of these world. So a "defeated" one seems to has power and maybe authority to do these things throughout scripture. And this is given by man, undeniably so. Because of Adam? I would think so, but again that's really arguable.

Was anything transferred to Satan through Adam's fall? I'd think so. But I'm not too sure about technicalities though.

Not sure I'm making any sense here. Maybe someone else is better able to take over

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I think one of the clearest scripture is in Col 2:15, that's what' I meant by defeated.

And rightly so; let's look close:

Colossians 2:13b-16a
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you....
​

It is about what Jesus did on the cross, I'm sure we'd agree. Because of what Jesus did we are alive, forgiven, no requirement of justice remaining against us. In context, by doing this, Jesus has disarmed the principalities and powers. He publicly showed them for what they were: users and abusers. But because the accusation against us is wiped clean, leaving no accusation to be made, the enemies are disarmed....they have no weapon to attack with (unless we once again turn from God's will in our lives for us and embrace the curse, thus opening a door for the enemy to enter and lie to us about our position in Christ). In other words, the enemy has not been changed, but his ability to accuse us has been drained and dried up. Stay under God's wing, stay in His blessing, and the enemy cannot touch you.

You know Blessed Man, I'll prefer to use the titles of scriptures gives instead of my definition of god.

First and foremost everyone should learn from what you say here. Too many times we wonder ABOUT scripture and go off and create a man-made explanation for the 'why' and 'what' of scripture without either letting it answer the question, or realizing that for whatever reason the answer was not explicitly provided by God to man. It's ok to ponder, but not to create theologies from the silence.

I think it's reasonable that "god of this world" is able to promises the world to Jesus in the wilderness.

Simply because Jesus did not deny Satan's statement does not mean that He agreed with it. To take either stand from this verse is preaching from silence. Jesus simply replied about Who to serve.

Luke 4:5-8 (NKJV)
5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”
8 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

NASB v6: And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
​

The Greek word is exousia. It literally means ability, privilege, influence, jurisdiction, power, authority. It has a 'flavor' of being legal -- in fact it's root is from exesti, which means to be lawful.



We see this same word usage in many verses:

• For he taught them as one having authority... Matt 7:29
• For I am a man under authority... Matt 8:9
• ...his twelve disciples, he gave them power over unclean spirits... Matt 10:1
• I give you power over serpents and scorpions.... Luke 10:19
• [Pilate] knowest thou not that i have power to crucify... John 19:10
• ...but has power over his own will... 1 Cor 7:37
• they worshipped the dragon which gave power to the beast ... Rev 13:4

So we have Jesus' authority to teach, a soldier's authority to lead, our authority over the enemy, man's power to judge another unto death, our control of our will, and the enemies power to wage war.

Bear with me here, this is going somewhere So now let's take a look at these verses:

Psalm 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

and

John 10:34
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
​

In Psalm 82 the word is elohim. It is the same word that renders God (as in Almighty God). Here God uses it to refer to men. This is not a deification of men, but has a meaning that is very significant here, which I'll get to.

In John 10:34 the word is theos. It is the same word that renders God (as in Almighty God). Here Jesus uses it to refer to men. Again, this is not a deification of men....

This word in the Old and the New Testaments, when ascribed to men, means rulers and judges. It is someone who has power and authority over another group, such authority having a form of legal merit.

Back to the word elohim. This word also includes angels. Of which Lucifer is one. Thus, god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). It means magistrate or prince. Thus, prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2). It means ruler. Thus, ruler of this world (John 12:31).

Thus:

He's also called prince of this world. He is also called ruler of this world. All these titles presupposes some sort of power and even authority.

Satan is part of the elohim, albeit a fallen part. He became prideful and was cast out of heaven, but we see him in Job entering the throne room as "the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." (Job 1:6)

Satan acquired dominion in this earth. Whether that acquisition came as a result of the fall or was an assignment from the beginning of creation is not clear. His dominion, though, is spoken of in the passages that you quote and others.

And as Psalm 82 -- and Jesus echoing that in John 10 -- tells us, man is also a part of the elohim: the rulers and judges.

Was anything transferred to Satan through Adam's fall? I'd think so. But I'm not too sure about technicalities though.

Well, we (especially in WoF) attribute a power transfer in the fall. But scripture is not clear of the transfer. Satan obviously had a right to be in the garden (for if God is omniscient and omnipresent, then certainly He knew the devil was there). Satan had a right to talk to man. But he couldn't MAKE Eve eat that fruit -- he could only deceive her and suggest that she eat it. When she did, and Adam in her wake, man disobeyed God's direct command and sinned: of their own free will.

The real question is "what does Satan have dominion over?"

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love...

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

2 Timothy 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
​

We have been delivered from Satan's power (his power was not taken away!). We are of God, but the world is under Satan's dominion. We once walked under Satan's domain, and the unsaved still do. And we pray that the unsaved will, by their own free will, escape the devil's dominion and come to Christ.

But if Satan was in the garden and got Adam and Eve to come under his sway: then he already had such a domain PRIOR to the fall. One could argue that it was created as a result of the fall, and I would not have much issue with that. Once reason I tend toward a "prior" belief is "tohu bohu":

Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:18
For thus says the Lord,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
​

God's creation is perfect (v1). In verse 2 it suddenly is "without form, and void" (Heb: tohu bohu). Tohu means chaos; bohu means void, vacant. In Isaiah 45:18 we are told that God did not create it in vain (tohu -- literally chaos). Something happened to the earth PRIOR to the creation of man. Could this possibly be when Jesus "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven?" (Luke 10:18) Who knows.

Not sure I'm making any sense here. Maybe someone else is better able to take over

Ahh, this is why we talk and why forums such as this exist. To move closer to "any sense." It's a good discussion!

 

[now faith]

Mmmm,guess this is why I use King James.


Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

We have three words,domain,authority,or power.
domain,authority are included in power,as well as the ability to use power as a weapon.
The ability to give it would conclude ownership.

 

[now faith]

Satan's world is the world of flesh and sin,we are only in it but not of it.
Only by free will do we give him authority,domain and power.

Christ redeemed us from the law and sin,as part of the body we have authority through Christ to rebuke Satan,Christ has put all things under his feet.

Only if we lust for flesh do we fail and give Satan authority over us lust=sin=death.
We must resist temptation.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[Optimax]

The devil had access to God's Presence by Adam's authority....OT.

After Jesus was raised, he no longer has that access....NT.

 

[now faith]

The devil had access to God's Presence by Adam's authority....OT.

After Jesus was raised, he no longer has that access....NT.

Yes but God set forth a new covenant with Noah.
He gave Noah the same dominion he gave Adam,including anything that moves on earth.

This would imply beings of spiritual nature.
Could it be permission from Noah,through sin from Ham.

Its odd that through Hams generations became the enemy's of Israel.

Did Hams sin open the door once again.

 

[Optimax]

Yes but God set forth a new covenant with Noah.
He gave Noah the same dominion he gave Adam,including anything that moves on earth.

This would imply beings of spiritual nature.
Could it be permission from Noah,through sin from Ham.

Its odd that through Hams generations became the enemy's of Israel.

Did Hams sin open the door once again.

God told Noah;

Gen 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. KJV


2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
KJV


God told Adam;

Gen 1:26

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. KJV


Notice what is different.

Noah was not given authority over all the earth as Adam was.

 

[now faith]

God told Noah;

Gen 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. KJV


2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
KJV


God told Adam;

Gen 1:26

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. KJV


Notice what is different.

Noah was not given authority over all the earth as Adam was.

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I will not curse the ground again,would imply the curse of Adam was removed.


Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Between the Serpent's seed and the woman,refers to a generational curse.
The bruise we know is the prophecy of Christ.

Cursed is the ground for thy sake(Adams) in sorrow thou eat of it all the days of thy life(Adams)
God did not say thy seed will eat for thy sake.

 

[x141]

I have problem's with this whole thing. If God was locked out, then how did he curse the ground and chase man out of the garden? How did he bring on the flood? And I don't see an invite from Abraham, rather God came to him.

He was locked out of his house, which house we are.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I will not curse the ground again,would imply the curse of Adam was removed.

Sorry to be so late to this one....

Um, what is "the curse of Adam?" Adam was never cursed. Because of Adam's fall, sin entered the world:

Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
​

Sin was not imputed until the law. The law gave teeth to the curse (for sin was now imputed to us).

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
​

Adam sinned because of the deception wrought on Eve. The serpent was cursed (the cattle too, for the serpent was cursed more). The ground was cursed. In all, everything about the creation in the earth was touched by the curse ... except man. Man was left to choose. God loved man so very much that He removed man from the garden (lest they eat and live as sinful creatures forever) and He clothed them and He instructed them pertaining how to survive. His blessing continued on Adam, but Adam had broken that relationship through sin. How do we know that the blessing continues? Read in Genesis 5 (we don't often go there because it isn't as interesting as chapters 1-2 [the creation]; 3 [the fall]; 4 [the first murder] -- no, 5 is a boring geneology).

Genesis 5:2-3
2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
​

God created mankind. He blessed them. Adam lived ... begot a son in his own likeness, after his image .... But no further mention of the fall, the curse, the death, the sin.

God's position in chapter 5 is that He created them and He blessed them and they reproduced likeness and image just as He did. They are getting back on track; they are learning. They still need a Savior (and this is a major juxtaposition between OC and NC, as you all know); and their ancestors will simply not listen nor do a good job in following or focusing on God. They will need some chastisement. They will choose bad paths, and will fall out of blessing. But Galatians 3:14 is coming....

For us, He has already come. Right there for our acceptance.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

This is an interesting thought. (And before I dismiss it, I would like to say Thanks!! You know what I mean.)

Ok, God was not locked out of our hearts any more than He was locked out this earth. God is both sovereign and He is omnipotent. There is nothing that He cannot do nor achieve. He is Lord of all and can obtain His will without any outside help.

But in His sovereignty He has decided to act according to His Word and His Promises. In this, we have our free will. God could certainly become "puppetmaster" and make anything happen (thus there could be no "lock out"). But He loves us and He has created us with a free choice.

Unfortunately, our choice led us to fall, to sin.

What happens in this is not a lock out, but a free will choice on man's part. Mankind (for that is what 'Adam' means -- his choice becomes our choice/result) chose to sin. This did not inhibit God but rather it broke relationship -- it broke our ablity to approach God, not His ability to approach us. (And the devil had no inherent "rights" to keep God from doing anything. God's own promises and desires made Him not to want to be "puppetmaster," but rather to allow man to continue in his dominion -- and to allow man to continue to pridefully continue to mess up their relationship with the Father. And then there are a few men who left pride behind and focused their faith on God....

 

[x141]

All things are his and there has never been a time when they were not. It is we who lack this truth being called his sons, trading the truth for a lie, through our own reasoning.

Those who give have no lack, this becomes ever more our reality, when our soul as a gift, we pour out.

Blessings.

 

[liferiver]

I was pondering over the believer's authority from a few other important vantage points found throughout the NT.

Just a few thoughts.

1) Believer being in Christ.

Think this speaks a lot on what has happened on the cross.
Jesus was called the 2nd Adam. And we're in Him. The key insight I had was:
Yes, we've and or we've been given authority; but I think it's more accurate (and a bit of splitting hairs) to say, it's Christ's authority that we have, not our own. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

2) Christ in us.
Think this is not frequently emphasized in WOF circles. It speaks more of a our daily walk and sanctification.

Christ expressing Himself in and through us. Christ, in the person of the indwelling Spirit, exercises His authority in and through us daily, to varying degrees. He has all power, He has all authority, He's our righteousness and He exercises His dominion through us daily, through our (His) desires, He prays through us.

3) Christ As Us -- in union with the Believer.
We're One with Christ. We're the Body of Christ. We're the branches, He's the vine. He's our Life. Whatever we speak, pray, do --- it's actually Christ is doing as Us. We cannot do it ourselves. When we exercise our dominion, it's actually Christ exercising it and not of ourselves. We do not lose our personality. It's supernaturally natural. Sometimes it may seem like it's us, but it's Him through us, His Body on earth.

Just like Jesus in the gospels. He only did what He saw the Father do. He only say what the Father said. He was One with the Father, just like we're One with the Father, in Christ. Jesus as the Son of Man, lived in communion with the Father, through prayer. And it's the Father that does the work not Jesus. Even Jesus acknowledged, the son of Himself can do nothing.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"We in WoF teach (does anyone else?) that when Adam fell, Satan obtained "Adam's lease" as the god of this world."

Mainline Charismatic (and other) teaching had always been is that Adam's delegated authority (dominion over the earthly creation) was surrendered to satan (Luke 4:6), when Adam sided with him against God, and placed himself under satan's authority. Since Adam was NEVER "god of this world" (The TOXIC WoF Addition), and never possessed any authority that wasn't given to him to begin with, that foolishness is simply off the table.

Of course satan isn't the "god of this world either" he's the "Prince of the Power of the Air" (Ruler over the realm of authority that's constrained by the outer limits of the earthly atmosphere) - Adam's precise "realm of authority" before he gave it away.

ALL authority is God's authority, and NEITHER Adam or satan has ever had any authority that's not specifically delegated to the one holding it by God - who has given ALL AUTHORITY to Jesus.

Cope and others, of course, have generated the "God locked out of his own creation" stupidity but the simple fact is that God still has autonomy, always HAS had it, and moves within the constraints that He had planned for the creation from eternity.

"I have problem's with this whole thing."

That's a GOOD thing!!

"If God was locked out, then how did he curse the ground and chase man out of the garden? How did he bring on the flood? And I don't see an invite from Abraham, rather God came to him."

The initiative is ALWAYS God's (one aspect of Calvinist thought that appears to be accurate).

"Some say that Job's story is one of the oldest in the Bible (regardless of the book's placement) and some say that Job is actually earlier than Abraham."

Job appears to be Post-diluvian, but pre-law. However none of this has any effect on the existence of a hedge - which is simply a revelation that satan CANNOT attack us humans autonomously - without God's specific (and tightly regulated) permission.

"The works of Satan were defeated at the cross. He is subject to us, the born again believer's. We have authority over him (see Luke 10:19). "

Except, of course we (Christian or otherwise) DON'T have authority over him or anything else UNLESS we, ourselves are under God's authority to begin with (re: the centurion). IF God doesn't delegate authority - we have none (re: Sons of Sceva).

"I want to put forth that Satan gained nothing in the fall,"

Except that he demonstratively DOES posses the authority that WAS Adam's (Luke 4:6). Jesus doesn't question satan's claim - He just says that He ain't playing that game, and that ALL worship belongs to God.

"So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please."

Nothing - there's still a "Hedge", Satan STILL can't get to us unless he's specifically permitted to, and the book of Job is the prototypical explanation of how God deals with us according to our eternal need.

I'm not sure WHY anybody would even have a problem with surgically metered and controlled "Problems" which are engineered to inevitably work for the (eternal) GOOD of those who love the Lord, and are the called according to his purpose. God SAYS that He'll Discipline and Scourge his kids - so what's the issue when He does????

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Mainline Charismatic (and other) teaching is that Adam's delegated authority (dominion over the earthly creation) was surrendered to satan (Luke 4:6), when Adam sided with him against God, and placed himself under satan's authority. Since Adam was NEVER "god of this world", and never possessed any authority that wasn't given to him to begin with, that foolishness is simply off the table.

Well, I'll agree that Adam "never possessed any authority that wasn't given to him to begin with..." The rest is under discussion.

And why does everyone use Luke 4:6 as fact: these words are spoken by Satan himself and are NOT agreed to by Jesus. Jesus took Satan's claim to ownership and placed him under His own feet, thus showing how stupid Satan's claim to be able to "give away" anything that is already owned by God (Psalm 47:7 "For God is the King of all the earth;"

For instance:

2 Chronicles 36:23
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me.
​

Hmm. If Satan "inherited/was given/stole/obtained ownership of" the kingdoms of the earth from Adam in the garden then why, oh why, oh does God have the odacity to give them to Cyrus? Who gave Him the right if Satan "legally" owned it?

Satan obviously from scripture is the "god of this world" and the "prince of the power of the air," but to assume that this represents some sole authority over man in any way is preaching from silence. That man (unsaved) is under his bondage is not a statement of his ownership but rather a statement of man's submission.

Of course satan isn't the "god of this world either" he's the "Prince of the Power of the Air" (Ruler over the realm of authority that's constrained by the outer limits of the earthly atmosphere) - Adam's precise "realm of authority" before he gave it away.

Who is refered to in this verse, Bob? I agree about "prince of..."

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
​

ALL authority is God's authority, and NEITHER Adam or satan has ever had any authority that's not specifically delegated to the one holding it by God - who has given ALL AUTHORITY to Jesus.

This is true.

The initiative is ALWAYS God's (one aspect of Calvinist thought that appears to be accurate).

God never lost the initiative, we would agree. I often times come close to demonizing Calvinism, but they are a Christian doctrine -- they just soooo miss the promises of God and the authority and dominion He has placed with man. But this is not a forum to debate Calvinism, so that shouldn't get started....

Except, of course we (Christian or otherwise) DON'T have authority over him or anything else UNLESS we, ourselves are under God's authority to begin with (re: the centurion). IF God doesn't delegate authority - we have none (re: Sons of Sceva).

Hmm. Then you must believe that God holds a hedge around the unsaved, or Satan would destroy them before they could ever come to the Lord. But yet if we are then given authority is the hedge about us lifted to let us fend for ourselves? If not, then why give us authority?

The Sons of Sceva were dismantled because they called upon the name of Jesus without believing in Him. It was Paul's Jesus, not their's. They fell upon their own sword, so to speak.

We see in the centurion that authority exists. He has power over many. Is he saved? Is he under God's authority (of course he is ultimately, but the flavor of your statement says that "we, ourselves [must be] under God's authority to begin with" and offers that we can choose not to be. It seems to be laying a line between the saved and unsaved.

But Caesar was definitely not saved. He had authority over many. Obviously he is under God's authority. Obviously God gave him his authority to begin with (Romans 13:1 - "there is no authority except from God").

So the questions are:
(1) does a believer have authority over the devil? Yes (Luke 10:19)
(2) does a believer always wield that authority? No.
(3) does an unbeliever have ANY authority over the devil?
(4) does an unbeliever fail in any authority they have?

The last two questions I would say are 'yes' and 'yes.' But the unbeliever's authority is not as powerful and complete as the believer's. We have the name of Jesus. The sons of Sceva didn't.

Unbeliever's have placed themselves willfully under the devil's dominion. They have submitted to his "authority." They make him "god" and they make him "prince."

But if an unbeliever had no authority to "put down the devil," then they could not answer God's call to salvation. Either that or toss free will and God's call becomes predeterministic.

"I want to put forth that Satan gained nothing in the fall,"

Except that he demonstratively DOES posses the authority that WAS Adam's (Luke 4:6). Jesus doesn't question satan's claim - He just says that He ain't playing that game, and that ALL worship belongs to God.

Nor does Jesus AGREE with the claim. Instead Jesus tells Satan just how much authority he really has: "Get behind Me, Satan!"

Further you have no scriptural proof to assign Satan's authority to anything that Adam had or has. You use Satan's own words? Words that are NOT upheld anywhere else in scripture?

Here's what Satan had: men who were willing to dismiss God and submit themselves to the god of this world. His "authority" is not a given position, but a submission of followers. In essence, he was offering Jesus middle management: worship me and I'll make you governor over these. But Jesus knew that these unsaved people, regardless of Satan's "authority," had the free will to choose God when He called. Satan can't stop them.

He couldn't stop Noah from building an ark.
He couldn't stop Abraham from entering Covenant.
He couldn't stop Moses from leading Israel free.

He can only lie, whisper, suggest. He can tempt, entice, lure. He can not make anyone do.... And Adam did not give him this ability, for he used it on Adam and Eve prior to the fall.

"So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please."

Nothing - there's still a "Hedge", Satan STILL can't get to us unless he's specifically permitted to, and the book of Job is the prototypical explanation of how God deals with us according to our eternal need.

Which goes back to my earlier question: if there is a hedge then why offer authority (Luke 10:19)? We can do Psalm 91 and we don't need nothing....no armor, no authority .... just hide under His wing.

We have the believer's authority for a reason.

I'm not sure WHY anybody would even have a problem with surgically metered and controlled "Problems" which are engineered to inevitably work for the (eternal) GOOD of those who love the Lord, and are the called according to his purpose. God SAYS that He'll Discipline and Scourge his kids - so what's the issue when He does????

Hebrews 12:5-6
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
​

Here's the interesting thing. This is a quote of Proverbs 3:11-12.

Proverbs 3:11-12
11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest His correction;
12 For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
​

Tear apart the Hebrew: do you find the meaning of the word "scourge" there? I don't. I see 'chastening' (mûsâr) which is chastisement, discipline. I see 'correction' (tôkêchâh) which is, well, correction, and also means chastisement.

I simply do not see any physical punishment inflicted here is what Hebrews is quoting. What is Hebrews 12 telling us? Let's look at a wider swatch of scripture here:

Hebrews 12:3-11
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

​

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
​

Hebrews begins this section talking about what Jesus suffered for us, to pay for our sins, what He took in our place.

Verse 4 tells us that we have not had to take this. (Note, I'm not dismissing nor diminishing the martyrs here, but simply looking at what the believer in general is up against.)

When we get to verse 7-11 we see NO MENTION of the scourging, only chastening. And said chastening is not going to be pleasant, it will not be joyful! But it's result will produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness."

The Father corrects the children -- and sometimes the children don't like it. It is necessary. But NOWHERE in scripture is the believer told that God will make them sick, give them a disease, put a curse upon them, etc.

The quote from the Old Testament is a reminder that we are the children the Father will discipline us. The exhortation that surrounds it in the New Testament tells us how God will deal with His kids under this covenenant. The Old Testament is a shadow of better things to come, not a physical action upon us. The New Testament shouts the Covenant that we are under now, full of God's love and covered by the blood of Jesus, which PAID IN FULL for the sins of man -- He took the curse from us.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

All things are his and there has never been a time when they were not. It is we who lack this truth being called his sons, trading the truth for a lie, through our own reasoning.

Those who give have no lack, this becomes ever more our reality, when our soul as a gift, we pour out.

Blessings.

Oh, you have said a lot, lot more than many people will hear. Amen!!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I was pondering over the believer's authority from a few other important vantage points found throughout the NT.

Just a few thoughts.

1) Believer being in Christ.

Think this speaks a lot on what has happened on the cross.
Jesus was called the 2nd Adam. And we're in Him. The key insight I had was:
Yes, we've and or we've been given authority; but I think it's more accurate (and a bit of splitting hairs) to say, it's Christ's authority that we have, not our own. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

Yes, it is delegated authority.

2) Christ in us.
Think this is not frequently emphasized in WOF circles. It speaks more of a our daily walk and sanctification.

Christ expressing Himself in and through us. Christ, in the person of the indwelling Spirit, exercises His authority in and through us daily, to varying degrees. He has all power, He has all authority, He's our righteousness and He exercises His dominion through us daily, through our (His) desires, He prays through us.

We have been given dominion in this earth. Our desires will line up closer to His desires as we are sanctified. And yes, if we yield the Holy Spirit will pray through us, for He knows what we need more than we do.

3) Christ As Us -- in union with the Believer.
We're One with Christ. We're the Body of Christ. We're the branches, He's the vine. He's our Life. Whatever we speak, pray, do --- it's actually Christ is doing as Us. We cannot do it ourselves. When we exercise our dominion, it's actually Christ exercising it and not of ourselves. We do not lose our personality. It's supernaturally natural. Sometimes it may seem like it's us, but it's Him through us, His Body on earth.

Ahhh....wandering too close to "puppetmaster" ideas. Christ does not take over our bodies like something from the Stepford Wives. Rather the Holy Spirit resides in us because we invited Him in. He is our helper. He guides us. So when we speak, pray, do -- it is us, under His guidance, free to choose His ways (very effective) or to wander off in our own ways (less effective and potentially destructive). When we exercise our dominion, it is the dominion that God gave us to freely excercise; and we certainly can allow Satan to influence our wielding of that dominion. We are His hands and feet -- not His puppets. We retain a free will, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to do God's will to the glory of God.

Just like Jesus in the gospels. He only did what He saw the Father do. He only say what the Father said. He was One with the Father, just like we're One with the Father, in Christ. Jesus as the Son of Man, lived in communion with the Father, through prayer. And it's the Father that does the work not Jesus. Even Jesus acknowledged, the son of Himself can do nothing.

John 5:19
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
​

Jesus sees what the Father does. Jesus does likewise. No, the Father is not doing through Jesus' person. Jesus is imitating the Father.

We likewise need to watch what Jesus did/does. We need to imitate what He does. He have the Holy Spirit to guide us.

The difference is that Jesus walked in this perfectly. He did not sin. We, on the other hand, do not walk perfectly and we chase sin often. Thus the Holy Spirit will whisper in our ears and convict us to repent and get back on the right path.

When Jesus says that the Son can do nothing of Himself, He is saying that He is not autonomous. He is subject to the Father, and He will emulate the Father. So when you see Him, you see the Father. For He only does what the Father does. Likewise, we need to be a reflection of Christ Jesus. We should strive to renew our minds to the point that we have no autonomous actions or thoughts; we need to do what Jesus would do. So when others see us they see Jesus in us, not us before Jesus.

 

[Optimax]

God as owner of the earth has certain legal rights.

the devil as a leaseholder has certain legal rights.

the devil's right are as the ruler over the earth's kingdoms and over people that are not born again.