Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

[1an]

God is omnipresent. There is nowhere that God isn't.

That is true of course, also true is that the ungodly are visibly with us, but one day we shall SEE Christ.

So will we see God in the New Jerusalem with physical eyes, and be able to touch Him bearing in mind God is Spirit?
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[1an]

Temporarily yes, but we don't stay in heaven forever, our real home is a New Earth that is redeemed without sin and death, and God will live with us.
God is spirit but He also has a body, all the times he refers to things by His body parts, words that proceed from His mouth, the works of His hands. The kind of body that He has now we will have someday after we are resurrected or raptured. It's not exactly the same as our current body, but it is familiar in the way that it is shaped and looks, and it will be capable of interacting with physical objects and doing physical things like being touched and eating and drinking.

Personally I don't know why gnostics don't want to have a body and just want to exist forever as a disincorporated spirit. No body to hug someone you love with, no body to dance for joy in the Lord with, no body to share a meal in fellowship with the body of Christ with, a nebulous abstract existence. That is not what we were designed for.

The hand of God and similar expressions may be metaphors.
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[prodromos]

That is true of course, also true is that the ungodly are visibly with us, but one day we shall SEE Christ.

So will we see God in the New Jerusalem with physical eyes, and be able to touch Him bearing in mind God is Spirit?

God is now also man.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nobody's arguing that THIS flesh is going to heaven or living forever on the new earth. That much is clear in the bible, but we are changed. It is a different spiritual body but it is a body, and our example is Jesus, who ate, and could be touched after His resurrection and ascended to Heaven in a cloud.

I agree it is a body. I've heard someone preach that "this body" is the one that is resurrected before so I thought maybe it was a thing in some denominations.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The OP is denying the resurrection of the physical body.

It's pretty basic so wasn't sure if that was what was going on.

We're saying that the body rises, transformed, immortal, and incorruptible.
What happened to Jesus is going to happen to us; as this is one of the most basic and central beliefs of the Christian religion.

A denial of bodily resurrection is as antithetical to Christianity as a denial of the existence of God.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree.

 

[1an]

God is now also man.

He was in human flesh for 33 years.
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[prodromos]

He was in human flesh for 33 years.
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He took that flesh to the grave and rose it to new life. His glorified flesh now sits at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Jamdoc]

The hand of God and similar expressions may be metaphors.
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In Exodus Moses was permitted to see God's back, and God put His hand over the crevice Moses was hidden in so that Moses wouldn't see His face, because it'd kill him. Just seeing God's back made Moses' face glow so that he had to wear a veil.

Exodus 33

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

So no, not a metaphor. God IS spirit, but God also does have a body.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is true of course, also true is that the ungodly are visibly with us, but one day we shall SEE Christ.

So will we see God in the New Jerusalem with physical eyes, and be able to touch Him bearing in mind God is Spirit?
.

Yes. We will.
Job attests to it.

Job 19

22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Think about that for a moment. This is incredible since this is an Old Testament reference to the resurrection, and also a reference to Jesus. Job knew of a future savior that would allow him to be resurrected and physically see God face to face.

Think about our Father. We do not have an impersonal god like other religions. We have a personal God who incarnated Himself as flesh to die four our sins, why?
So that we could have a relationship with Him. He doesn't want a bunch of robot servants, He has angels already. He wants us to be His children, and is even our groomsman. He wants a positive, intimate relationship with us. That is the point of all of this, so that in our fall and redemption we will choose to appreciate Him and love Him more than just some being hard programmed to love Him. So that we can enter a meaningful and real relationship with Him.

 

[The Liturgist]

In Exodus Moses was permitted to see God's back, and God put His hand over the crevice Moses was hidden in so that Moses wouldn't see His face, because it'd kill him. Just seeing God's back made Moses' face glow so that he had to wear a veil.

Exodus 33


So no, not a metaphor. God IS spirit, but God also does have a body.

Since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, that was almost certainly Him, just as the burning bush, the pillar of fire and so on were almost certainly the Holy Spirit. God the Father is only ever explicitly encountered through His voice, and is beyond all corporeality. Indeed there are almost no affirmative statements that can be made about the Father; only apophatic theology is adequate to describe him. The anthropic character of God as encountered by Moses suggests the presence of the risen Son. Faces illuminated by a reflection of divine holiness in the manner of Moses, have also been encountered by monastics, such as the Desert Fathers.

 

[1an]

Yes. We will.
Job attests to it.

Job 19


Think about that for a moment. This is incredible since this is an Old Testament reference to the resurrection, and also a reference to Jesus. Job knew of a future savior that would allow him to be resurrected and physically see God face to face.

Think about our Father. We do not have an impersonal god like other religions. We have a personal God who incarnated Himself as flesh to die four our sins, why?
So that we could have a relationship with Him. He doesn't want a bunch of robot servants, He has angels already. He wants us to be His children, and is even our groomsman. He wants a positive, intimate relationship with us. That is the point of all of this, so that in our fall and redemption we will choose to appreciate Him and love Him more than just some being hard programmed to love Him. So that we can enter a meaningful and real relationship with Him.

Yes, the Old Testament is incredible for those who have eyes to see. (Do you understand what I am saying?)

Verse 25 tells of the Redeemer who of course is Jesus, and verse 26 tells us that after his flesh is destroyed, he shall see God. I take that to mean he will see God in the Spirit. After all, the believer walks and talks with God in the Spirit every day and all day, but not in the flesh. The commenters support this view.

I do believe in a spiritual world in which there is no pain or suffering.

I do appreciate your beautiful thoughts in which you speak of true love, which is of the spirit that cannot be seen, touched, smelled etc. which is not of this world, and hopefully is not manifest in the lust of the flesh which is of the earth. In this we see two dimensions, the heavenly and the earthly. I offer these thoughts, as the Spirit gave me utterance. May God bless.
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[Hmm]

A general question. Do we know if the nature of the physical world change following the Fall? For example, would Adam and Eve have been susceptible to disease or accidents such as lightning strikes while they were in Eden?

 

[Jamdoc]

Since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, that was almost certainly Him, just as the burning bush, the pillar of fire and so on were almost certainly the Holy Spirit. God the Father is only ever explicitly encountered through His voice, and is beyond all corporeality. Indeed there are almost no affirmative statements that can be made about the Father; only apophatic theology is adequate to describe him. The anthropic character of God as encountered by Moses suggests the presence of the risen Son. Faces illuminated by a reflection of divine holiness in the manner of Moses, have also been encountered by monastics, such as the Desert Fathers.

and Jesus is still God... so.. God has a body.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, the Old Testament is incredible for those who have eyes to see. (Do you understand what I am saying?)

Verse 25 tells of the Redeemer who of course is Jesus, and verse 26 tells us that after his flesh is destroyed, he shall see God. I take that to mean he will see God in the Spirit. After all, the believer walks and talks with God in the Spirit every day and all day, but not in the flesh. The commenters support this view.

I do believe in a spiritual world in which there is no pain or suffering.

I do appreciate your beautiful thoughts in which you speak of true love, which is of the spirit that cannot be seen, touched, smelled etc. which is not of this world, and hopefully is not manifest in the lust of the flesh which is of the earth. In this we see two dimensions, the heavenly and the earthly. I offer these thoughts, as the Spirit gave me utterance. May God bless.
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Hello Mr Cherrypicker
did you completely miss the rest of the verse?
In his FLESH he will see God.
that is the resurrection body.
not an incorporeal spirit
a body.

 

[Jamdoc]

A general question. Do we know if the nature of the physical world change following the Fall? For example, would Adam and Eve have been susceptible to disease or accidents such as lightning strikes while they were in Eden?

The biology definitely changed. Our DNA is designed to be redundant and replicate itself perfectly which would mean our cells would never grow old and die and we'd never grow old and die, but sin actually marred that capability, now our cells, despite having all that redundancy, make mistakes in replication (it's like a manifestation of sin at the molecular level, sin is "missing the mark" and just like we make errors in sinning, our bodies make errors in how they function which leads to aging and death). We also have telomeres at the end of our chromosomes which shorten every time the DNA replicates.. after so many replication the Telomere tails are too short and the cell is programmed for death through a caspase reaction. Death has been programmed into us at a molecular level.
I imagine that is the LEAST of the changes that will happen in the resurrection body, is that our cells would no longer replicate imperfectly so they would cycle and renew themselves flawlessly forever.
We were probably immune to disease because our immune systems were probably much better and never went haywire with autoimmunity or allergies, and I don't think viruses existed I think they were a part of the curse.

You could think through those mechanisms alone you'd heal from injuries very fast even if you were able to sustain them...
But as for being struck by lightning? dunno, would God let that happen? I don't think He would, after the curse is gone.

 

[The Liturgist]

and Jesus is still God... so.. God has a body.

Exactly.

 

[1an]

Hello Mr Cherrypicker
did you completely miss the rest of the verse?
In his FLESH he will see God.
that is the resurrection body.
not an incorporeal spirit
a body.

A cherry picker takes a single verse and builds upon it a theology of error. It happens all the time. If we take the whole of scripture as we must, instead of only a single verse that you are not reading correctly, (See Job 19:26) then we we learn our mortal body of flesh is changed to immortality. Our flesh dies but our spirit, for those who are born again of the Spirit (John 3:3) lives eternally.

And after my skin, even this body, is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God; (Job 19:26) Read and understand.

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
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[Jamdoc]

A cherry picker takes a single verse and builds upon it a theology of error. It happens all the time. If we take the whole of scripture as we must, instead of only a single verse we have this:

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
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right, you're not taking the whole council of God.
You're focusing on the spirit verses without considering the resurrection body verses and the fact that those resurrection bodies were still physical and had flesh.
You're writing those off even when in context in Job it's pretty clear that Job has faith that even after the body he was win died, he would be resurrected into a new body and he'd see God in his flesh, with his own eyes.

What does the whole council say?

This current body is death. (Romans 3-6)
At salvation we get a new spirit but still have an old dying body that is at war with our new spirit (Romans 7, 2 Corinthians 5)
Eventually our current body dies, and our spirits go to the Lord in Heaven. (2 Corinthians 5)
However that is not forever, as one day Jesus will return to earth and we will be resurrected in a new body. (half of the new testament)
The resurrection body is spiritual, but still has flesh and bone, and can still eat food, and be touched. (1 Corinthians 15, Luke 24, John 20, Phillipians 3)
That resurrection body will live on a new earth where righteousness dwells and there is no more curse, and God will dwell amongst us. (Revelation 21-22)

That is what the bible teaches as a whole.
To veer away from that, is heresy.

 

[1an]

right, you're not taking the whole council of God.
You're focusing on the spirit verses without considering the resurrection body verses and the fact that those resurrection bodies were still physical and had flesh.
You're writing those off even when in context in Job it's pretty clear that Job has faith that even after the body he was win died, he would be resurrected into a new body and he'd see God in his flesh, with his own eyes.

What does the whole council say?

This current body is death. (Romans 3-6)
At salvation we get a new spirit but still have an old dying body that is at war with our new spirit (Romans 7, 2 Corinthians 5)
Eventually our current body dies, and our spirits go to the Lord in Heaven. (2 Corinthians 5)
However that is not forever, as one day Jesus will return to earth and we will be resurrected in a new body. (half of the new testament)
The resurrection body is spiritual, but still has flesh and bone, and can still eat food, and be touched. (1 Corinthians 15, Luke 24, John 20, Phillipians 3)
That resurrection body will live on a new earth where righteousness dwells and there is no more curse, and God will dwell amongst us. (Revelation 21-22)

That is what the bible teaches as a whole.
To veer away from that, is heresy.

The scriptures you quote do not support your view, they support my view. Here is the first you quoted. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53)

(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

To what church do you belong please. I see you put down Baptist, but my Baptist minister father would totally disagree with you according to the above.

 

[The Liturgist]

The scriptures you quote are not germane to this conversion. (1 Corinthians 15, Luke 24, John 20, Phillipians 3)

To what church do you belong please. I see you put down Baptist, but my Baptist minister father would totally disagree with you.

I’ve never met a Baptist who did not believe in the bodily resurrection. All of the major denominations have this as a doctrine.

 

[1an]

I’ve never met a Baptist who did not believe in the bodily resurrection. All of the major denominations have this as a doctrine.

I often notice the American posters have a different pov. I think it stems from the time they were expelled from England for hearsay. Let us stay with the Bible and not church doctrine.
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