Adam ?

[Colter]

Hi Again Sir,
Happy Lord's Day to you. What evidence might you have of such redaction and recasting of Scripture taking place? In my earlier post I gave you several dozen example of where Jesus and His Disciples stated He fulfilled OT Scripture in its then present form; these have been located at Qumran in the remarkable Dead Sea Scrolls and are dated between 200 BC to AD 70.
Respectfully, John 17:20

First, let me be clear, I see the human imperfection of the scripture books as "authenticating". All things considered, the books are what we should expect, a layercake of revelations great and small, interpretive struggles with faith and understanding, trans political redaction and fulfillment. It doesn't bother my faith in the Living God that holy men who wrote about him in the past were far from perfect. They were really no different than the ecclesiastical authority of contemporary Christianity. Jesus referenced some scripture but not all.

Much of the OT as we know was finished by the time of the return. By the time of the Dead Sea scrolls the redactions had taken place. So the DSS were scribal copies.

You will find a summary of the Documentary Hypothesis here: Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia

 

[Aman777]

The many inconsistencies and errors of the books of the Bible have given rise to any number of imaginative ways to make them appear consistent. Yours is just one of many.

The Hebrew priest created the creation story culling together parts of Mesopotamian lore of ancient times. It was written by Israelites and for an Israelite audience, NOT for "Gentile dogs"! Their is truth to their relationship with Adam, but their genealogical account, interrupted by the vastly exaggerated flood myth, is far from accurate.

Not if you understand that ONLY the born again Spiritually Christians are listed. They are among the "living" while those who did not believe God are missing. A good example is that Cain, nor any of his descendants, are listed since they are not among the "living" or born again of the Spirit.

 

[Aman777]

Yep the Bible is a week long ...

David is both the seventh son and the eighth son of Jesse, just as Enoch is both the seventh and eight from Adam. The two truths are one in the same, or one cannot be had without the other.

The unbelievers are not listed. Someone is missing in your interpretation.

 

[Aman777]

Yep the Bible is a week long ...

False, since each of God's Days is some 4.5 billion years in man's time. Today remains the 6th Day so long as God is working to bring sinners to Christ. When Heaven is filled, God will rest or in Hebrew, will CEASE from ALL of His Creating as Genesis 2:2-3 repeats. The 7th Day is Eternity. God Bless you

 

[Aman777]

To me, that is the point, the God at the beginning of the Bible is not God, it is our perception of God.

Does God need to go down to see what he heard was true ... or why be sorry for an outcome you knew would be before you did it ... why would you need to sacrfice your son to make people clean, when reasoning with God makes you clean ...

Misunderstanding. Jesus had to die in order for Humans to be able to go to Heaven, since only those in Christ Spiritually can go. God, Himself, the only God ever formed physically, gave Himself a Sacrifice for the sins of mankind because He made us from the dust of the ground. Gen 2:7 He had to do this to fulfill Justice which He and the Father knew before the world was made. God the Father accepted His Sacrifice for our sins. Why don't you?

 

[Aseyesee]

what was the final outcome to their being disciplined?

To use Paul's words ... peaceable fruits of rightousness.

 

[Colter]

Misunderstanding. Jesus had to die in order for Humans to be able to go to Heaven, since only those in Christ Spiritually can go. God, Himself, the only God ever formed physically, gave Himself a Sacrifice for the sins of mankind because He made us from the dust of the ground. Gen 2:7 He had to do this to fulfill Justice which He and the Father knew before the world was made. God the Father accepted His Sacrifice for our sins. Why don't you?

We are saved by faith, many had already gone to heaven before Jesus who made the way more clear. Sacrifice for sin is a Pagan interpretation not taught by Jesus in the original gospel.

 

[Aseyesee]

False, since each of God's Days is some 4.5 billion years in man's time. Today remains the 6th Day so long as God is working to bring sinners to Christ. When Heaven is filled, God will rest or in Hebrew, will CEASE from ALL of His Creating as Genesis 2:2-3 repeats. The 7th Day is Eternity. God Bless you

Was speaking on God's terms ... I know Adam fell short of rest.

There is a day known to God as neither night or day ...

 

[Aseyesee]

Misunderstanding. Jesus had to die in order for Humans to be able to go to Heaven, since only those in Christ Spiritually can go. God, Himself, the only God ever formed physically, gave Himself a Sacrifice for the sins of mankind because He made us from the dust of the ground. Gen 2:7 He had to do this to fulfill Justice which He and the Father knew before the world was made. God the Father accepted His Sacrifice for our sins. Why don't you?

Your hunting for devils ... If you want to discuss or debate try not to be one.

 

[miknik5]

To use Paul's words ... peaceable fruits of rightousness.

Paul preached CHRIST to all men and he did say to be at peace with all men as much as it is in our ability to do so

But Paul believed that those outside the BODY were outside the BODY and needed to hear the GOSPEL, needed to hear CHRIST and THE MESSAGE of THE CROSS

in fact he said that the MESSAGE of THE CROSS was foolishness to to those who are perishing

Was this the peaceable fruits of righteousness?

 

[miknik5]

Your hunting for devils ... If you want to discuss or debate try not to be one.

Was Paul a devil when he said that those who did not believe the message of the cross (which he called the hidden wisdom of GOD) are perishing?

 

[miknik5]

Your hunting for devils ... If you want to discuss or debate try not to be one.

Romans 10 is sufficient

 

[miknik5]

In me is a no adversary zone ... I am in the city ... As Paul said he has been made all things to us (and) those who are joined unto the lord are one spirit.

What about those who are not in the "city" who haven't entered by way of THE DOOR

In righteousness do you tell them about THAT DOOR so that they too may enter through faith in
THE GOSPEL?

 

[miknik5]

I don't measure myself by others (such a thought cannot enter into the gates, so to speak) ... perfect love casts out (worry) fear (which should read more like, fear has no place in perfect love).

Obviously Paul was prone to being prideful, and Peter sifted unto conversion.

Perfect love preaches the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL to all men even though we can't say who will ascend or who will descend

He who has ears to hear, will hear and receive the WORD of TRUTH as it should be received.

As the WORD and TRUTH of GOD's TESTIMONY and PROMISE to all those who will believe

 

[miknik5]

Was speaking on God's terms ... I know Adam fell short of rest.

There is a day known to God as neither night or day ...

But HE did say walk while you have the light lest darkness come and Ye be overcome

 

[miknik5]

Do you believe that JESUS CHRIST is THE LORD of THE SABBATH?

And that HE entered in for us
And by HIS saving WORK those who believe who have put their faith in HIM have also entered in provided we remain by faith directed in and on HIM alone

Please read Hebrews 4

When I pointed you to both Paul andbowter, I was hoping you would look into Peter's letters telling them about GOD's DISVUPLINE

That as a launderer and a pruner and a purifier and a refiner, HE does so that our faith, more precious than gold (though tried in the fire) will prove genuine resulting in HIS PRAISE and GLORY

 

[miknik5]

The righteousness which is of faith is spoken of in Romans 10

 

[John 1720]

First, let me be clear, I see the human imperfection of the scripture books as "authenticating". All things considered, the books are what we should expect, a layercake of revelations great and small, interpretive struggles with faith and understanding, trans political redaction and fulfillment. It doesn't bother my faith in the Living God that holy men who wrote about him in the past were far from perfect. They were really no different than the ecclesiastical authority of contemporary Christianity. Jesus referenced some scripture but not all.

Much of the OT as we know was finished by the time of the return. By the time of the Dead Sea scrolls the redactions had taken place. So the DSS were scribal copies.

You will find a summary of the Documentary Hypothesis here: Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia

Thank you Colter! I was merely trying to understand your position and where you stand with respect to Scripture. So I am guessing you are currently influenced by liberal scholarship regarding the Old Testament? Would that be also true for the New Testament as well? I'm really just trying to get a better perspective and assessment of your Christian belief to better communicate if that is okay with you. Better to understand one's perspective than to build an edifice on shifting sands. So I will just say this:

• There is no doubt Scrolls were recopied all the time due to degradation of materials, I've been to a few Scriptoriums myself and the enterprise was recopying older texts to be sure.
  • Dead Sea Scrolls
• However the evidence of recopying was largely extremely disciplined and it's hard to figure there would have been large exposure to redactions as you surmise.
• My wife and I were completely blown away in examining the Dead Sea Scrolls and the formational care of every letter, jot and tittle. Not only was it stunningly beautiful but it speaks greatly to the discipline of the scribes. Matthew 5:18

While opinions and theories abound they are just that, in the end, theories. Certainly many scholars are in disagreement as they compete for their latest 'shocker' that will sell on Cable TV and Amazon. You know, 'follow the money!' I realize that is what drives academia when it comes to Scripture and just about everything else but it would be unfair to say there aren't any proponents of truth and fairness either. You should know, if you do not already know, that much of the pet theories of the past regarding Scripture have been entirely impeached by modern archaeology but that said, we're so far from done. If I were to compare the progress of proving out the past, relative to good scientific methods, let's say relative to the advances we have made in understanding the universe we are probably somewhere about the 19th century at this writing. No doubt fallibility has plagued us in the past and will continue to do so until breakthroughs overthrow current theories and we have a much clearer picture of the reality of those times.

However, and this goes back to the reason I asked you about your position on the NT, I would recommend examining the OT through the lens of the NT, if indeed you believe it has more integrity. Jesus Himself quotes at least 24 OT books and the NT in totality quotes from at least 33 OT books. That says that Jesus and his apostles had a great deal of faith in those Scriptures, even if many modern day scholars as well as yourself do not. It's hard to me to fathom that Jesus is the Son of God but was somehow bamboozled by this alleged fake Scriptural content. There is also OT Scripture that has been found that absolutely predates the Jewish diaspora so the theory it was all oral tradition before that simply isn't true.

• Bible Possibly Written Centuries Earlier, Text Suggests

I realized this is tangential to the OP. It would make a good thread of discussion if you are open to it but I won't weigh down this thread with discussion that could go deep and long. Anyhow have a great night, and may God bless you and your family.
John 17:20

 

[Colter]

Thank you Colter! I was merely trying to understand your position and where you stand with respect to Scripture. So I am guessing you are currently influenced by liberal scholarship regarding the Old Testament? Would that be also true for the New Testament as well? I'm really just trying to get a better perspective and assessment of your Christian belief to better communicate if that is okay with you. Better to understand one's perspective than to build an edifice on shifting sands. So I will just say this:

• There is no doubt Scrolls were recopied all the time due to degradation of materials, I've been to a few Scriptoriums myself.
  • Dead Sea Scrolls
• However the evidence of recopying was largely extremely disciplined and it's hard to figure there would have been large exposure to redactions as you surmise.
• My wife and I were completely blown away in examining the Dead Sea Scrolls and the formational care of every letter, jot and tittle. Not only was it stunningly beautiful but it speaks greatly to the discipline of the scribes. Matthew 5:18

While opinions and theories abound they are just that, in the end, theories. Certainly many scholars are in disagreement as they compete for their latest 'shocker' that will sell on TV and Amazon. You know, 'follow the money!' I realize that is what drives academia when it comes to Scripture and just about everything else but it would be unfair to say there aren't any proponents of truth and fairness either. You should know, if you do not already know, that much of the pet theories of the past regarding Scripture have been entirely impeached by modern archaeology but that said, we're so far from done. If I were to compare the progress of proving out the past, relative to good scientific methods, let's say relative to the advances we have made in understanding the universe we are probably somewhere about the 19th century at this writing. No doubt fallibility has plagued us in the past and will continue to do so until breakthroughs overthrow current theories and we have a much clearer picture of the reality of those times.
However, and this goes back to the reason I asked you about your position on the NT, I would recommend examining the OT through the lens of the NT, if you have believe it has more integrity. Jesus Himself quotes at least 24 OT books and the NT in totality quotes from at least 33 OT books. That says that Jesus and his apostles had a great deal of faith in those Scriptures, even if many modern day scholars as well as yourself do not. It's hard to me to fathom that Jesus is the Son of God but was somehow bamboozled by this alleged fake Scriptural content. There is also OT Scripture that has been found that absolutely predates the Jewish diaspora so the theory it was all oral tradition before that simply isn't true.

• Bible Possibly Written Centuries Earlier, Text Suggests

I realized this is tangential to the OP. It would make a good thread of discussion if you are open to it but I won't weigh down this thread with discussion that could go deep and long. Anyhow have a great night, and may God bless you and your family.
John 17:20

In answer to your questions, I don't delve into scholarship that much. I grew up in a Meathodist church which was fairly moderate and not to influential. Probubly about the same time that I figured out Santa Clase was a fraud I realized that some of the more rediculous claims of the OT were fictional. I was spirit born at 21 years old and became interested in spirituality. I'm a student of both the Bible and the Urantia revelation as well as some 12 step stuff.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Did God make Adam imperfect?

God made Adam in God's own image...he was given free-will...remember the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God surely foresaw the fall of Adam and Eve b/c Jesus is said to be...in Revelation 13:8...the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
So Adam was holy (made in God's own image) but succumbed to temptation just as it is written. I don't think it wise to go beyond what is written.