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John 1720

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Hi,
  1. the Jews had certain assumptions based on their scriptures about a Jewish Messiah.
  2. Jesus reailized that he couldn't meet their expectations
  3. and at the same time built his kingdom ideal on their expectations at least of a "deliverer."
  4. He decided to allow the Father to guide him through the tangled mess.
  5. The problem was further complicated by the attempt by Jewish converts to the new Christian religion to force Jesus into the Old Testament to bring the Jews.
  6. It failed to bring the Jews and complicated Christian theology.
Hi Once Again Sir,
I'm really not quite understanding where you actually stand with regard to accepting or rejecting the Old Testament. Could you clarify? Do you reject it or are you just saying that Jesus' contemporary Jewish brethren didn't understand Him and rejected Him as the Messiah, the Christ?

  1. the Jews had certain assumptions based on their scriptures about a Jewish Messiah.: Yes, I agree their expectation of a Messiah was primarily the restoration of Israel as a socio-political power, where they could be delivered from the boot of Roman authority on their necks. They were assuming His rule upon the earth was coming since they believed the prophesy given to Abraham: I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
  2. Jesus reailized that he couldn't meet their expectations: I don't believe He was trying to meet their expectations, That would be people pleasing. He was, however, obeying the Will of the Father and fulfilling the Old Testament promise; for the Abrahmic blessing Genesis 12:2-3 was that both the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations would be blessed through Him (Christ), the seed of Abraham, which Paul clearly discussed. Romans 9:7-8
  3. At the same time built his kingdom ideal on their expectations at least of a "deliverer.": I would disagree with you there. He built His Kingdom on conquering both sin and death, which is a malady common to all men and women. This of course was proven by His resurrection, which all believers ( whether Jewish or Gentile) who trust Him as their Lord abide in Him and through the same power shall also rise.
  4. He decided to allow the Father to guide him through the tangled mess. Yes, He obeyed the Will of the Father through the very end and it was an ordeal of Biblical proportions far past anything we have ever seen in terms of suffering. But He did not just do this at the end but from the Beginning as He stated in Luke 2:49 John 4:34 John 6:38-40 and in Him we are also sent to do the will of Christ, which is also the will of the Father John 20:21
  5. The problem was further complicated by the attempt by Jewish converts to the new Christian religion to force Jesus into the Old Testament to bring the Jews.: Well I agree that some Jewish converts desired to make cultural converts out of Gentile Christians and it caused great friction. But I;m not one for throwing stones at them. BTW we have done the same thing at time overseas whe trying to Americanize Christian converts from other countries. We should just let the Holy Spirit do His transformational work in each culture and relinquish our own cultural baggage. The Judaizers were not all Jewish Christians and the Jewish Church di not disappear until after the Bar Kochba war when Hadrian kicked all the Jews out of Jerusalem in AD 132, over 100 years after Christ, Even though their Diocese greatly decreased in power there were since very prominent Jewish Christians around; including the great Christian Historian Hegesippus who died around AD 180. We shouldn't confuse the New Covenant with a new religion as that falsely infers the Christians preceded the Jewish Christians, That would not be historically accurate. The entire New Testament was written by Jews, except for Doctor Luke's Gospel, However, even Doctor Luke was the companion of Paul and previous to that the friend of Peter and the disciples of Christ, of of whom were Jewish. He was more of a documenter and scribe and was bot a witness to Christ but dependent on the apostles. So the fulfillment of the Gospel through a the Holy Spirit and the bloodline of Nazarean Jew, Mary. But He belongs to us all as Emmanuel, God with us, Christ Jesus. The hearing the Gospel definitely also came through the Jews, and so we should give credit to the Jews for bringing us to Christ in the first place, as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman.; see John 4:22-26 . Lastly Jesus prayed at the last supper for all of us who would believe through the word of the apostle in Him - see John 17:18-24 , which is part of my handle. Everyone in the room that night was a Jewish believer.
  6. It failed to bring the Jews and complicated Christian theology: It did at first but then you had another Jew Saul of Tarsus, better known by his Greek name Paul, to fight tooth and nail to ensure Jewish culturalism didn't trump and smother true Christianity. Romans 11:1 This ultomately enabled it to be exported to every nation on the face of the planet. Theologically we had a bigger problem with syncretism (and we still do today). This is when is pagan cultures and deities get blended in with the true faith that was delivered to us from the apostles. It's a tough balancing act because we want Christ to penetrate each individual culture in order to lift that particular culture. Another analogy would be a great garden where then are 6500 plants and flowers, all being unique, you want each one to flourish but you have to be careful about cross contamination. So God sanctifies the culture and makes it great. But, we have to be careful, that at the same time we don't let the blend of the baser forms of the culture impede Christian growth. Those baser forms might very well be doctrine of demons and destroy the plant. So its important to know that Christ not only lifts individual men and women out of bondage but that He can lift entire nations out of bondage as well. Our best efforts these days is to pioneer the Gospel to those who have not heard it and then get out of Dodge once native missionaries and Pastors can take over. We don't entirely disconnect because we are family in Christ and so we continue to support their efforts but do transfer the leadership to those native to the cultural. We just want to see Christ grow in every culture and what that will manifest as will indeed be beautiful.
In Christ, John 17:20
 
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Colter

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Hi Once Again Sir,
I'm really not quite understanding where you actually stand with regard to accepting or rejecting the Old Testament. Could you clarify? Do you reject it or are you just saying that Jesus' contemporary Jewish brethren didn't understand Him and rejected Him as the Messiah, the Christ?

  1. the Jews had certain assumptions based on their scriptures about a Jewish Messiah.: Yes, I agree their expectation of a Messiah was primarily the restoration of Israel as a socio-political power, where they could be delivered from the boot of Roman authority on their necks. They were assuming His rule upon the earth was coming since they believed the prophesy given to Abraham: I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
  2. Jesus reailized that he couldn't meet their expectations: I don't believe He was trying to meet their expectations, That would be people pleasing. He was, however, obeying the Will of the Father and fulfilling the Old Testament promise; for the Abrahmic blessing Genesis 12:2-3 was that both the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations would be blessed through Him (Christ), the seed of Abraham, which Paul clearly discussed. Romans 9:7-8
  3. At the same time built his kingdom ideal on their expectations at least of a "deliverer.": I would disagree with you there. He built His Kingdom on conquering both sin and death, which is a malady common to all men and women. This of course was proven by His resurrection, which all believers ( whether Jewish or Gentile) who trust Him as their Lord abide in Him and through the same power shall also rise.
  4. He decided to allow the Father to guide him through the tangled mess. Yes, He obeyed the Will of the Father through the very end and it was an ordeal of Biblical proportions far past anything we have ever seen in terms of suffering. But He did not just do this at the end but from the Beginning as He stated in Luke 2:49 John 4:34 John 6:38-40 and in Him we are also sent to do the will of Christ, which is also the will of the Father John 20:21
  5. The problem was further complicated by the attempt by Jewish converts to the new Christian religion to force Jesus into the Old Testament to bring the Jews.: Well I agree that some Jewish converts desired to make cultural converts out of Gentile Christians and it caused great friction. But I;m not one for throwing stones at them. BTW we have done the same thing at time overseas whe trying to Americanize Christian converts from other countries. We should just let the Holy Spirit do His transformational work in each culture and relinquish our own cultural baggage. The Judaizers were not all Jewish Christians and the Jewish Church di not disappear until after the Bar Kochba war when Hadrian kicked all the Jews out of Jerusalem in AD 132, over 100 years after Christ, Even though their Diocese greatly decreased in power there were since very prominent Jewish Christians around; including the great Christian Historian Hegesippus who died around AD 180. We shouldn't confuse the New Covenant with a new religion as that falsely infers the Christians preceded the Jewish Christians, That would not be historically accurate. The entire New Testament was written by Jews, except for Doctor Luke's Gospel, However, even Doctor Luke was the companion of Paul and previous to that the friend of Peter and the disciples of Christ, of of whom were Jewish. He was more of a documenter and scribe and was bot a witness to Christ but dependent on the apostles. So the fulfillment of the Gospel through a the Holy Spirit and the bloodline of Nazarean Jew, Mary. But He belongs to us all as Emmanuel, God with us, Christ Jesus. The hearing the Gospel definitely also came through the Jews, and so we should give credit to the Jews for bringing us to Christ in the first place, as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman.; see John 4:22-26 . Lastly Jesus prayed at the last supper for all of us who would believe through the word of the apostle in Him - see John 17:18-24 , which is part of my handle. Everyone in the room that night was a Jewish believer.
  6. It failed to bring the Jews and complicated Christian theology: It did at first but then you had another Jew Saul of Tarsus, better known by his Greek name Paul, to fight tooth and nail to ensure Jewish culturalism didn't trump and smother true Christianity. Romans 11:1 This ultomately enabled it to be exported to every nation on the face of the planet. Theologically we had a bigger problem with syncretism (and we still do today). This is when is pagan cultures and deities get blended in with the true faith that was delivered to us from the apostles. It's a tough balancing act because we want Christ to penetrate each individual culture in order to lift that particular culture. Another analogy would be a great garden where then are 6500 plants and flowers, all being unique, you want each one to flourish but you have to be careful about cross contamination. So God sanctifies the culture and makes it great. But, we have to be careful, that at the same time we don't let the blend of the baser forms of the culture impede Christian growth. Those baser forms might very well be doctrine of demons and destroy the plant. So its important to know that Christ not only lifts individual men and women out of bondage but that He can lift entire nations out of bondage as well. Our best efforts these days is to pioneer the Gospel to those who have not heard it and then get out of Dodge once native missionaries and Pastors can take over. We don't entirely disconnect because we are family in Christ and so we continue to support their efforts but do transfer the leadership to those native to the cultural. We just want to see Christ grow in every culture and what that will manifest as will indeed be beautiful.
In Christ, John 17:20
Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

In answer to your question, I belive that the OT books were all redacted during the Babylonion captivity. In response to the deflation of their nationalist ego the Hebrew priest recast their entire history, they converted a relatively secular history into a miraculous fiction. While the OT books contain spiritual truths, there are great exaggerations and cultural arrogance which is simply at odds with reality.
 
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Aman777

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Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

In answer to your question, I belive that the OT books were all redacted during the Babylonion captivity. In response to the deflation of their nationalist ego the Hebrew priest recast their entire history, they converted a relatively secular history into a miraculous fiction. While the OT books contain spiritual truths, there are great exaggerations and cultural arrogance which is simply at odds with reality.

Not so, since Genesis chapter one is the ENTIRE history of God's 6 Day/Age Creation of the perfect Heaven, filled with perfect mankind, perfect in Christ. We live today at Gen 1:27 since Gen 1:28-31 is Prophecy of events which happen AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon.

All of the rest of the Bible from Genesis 2:4 to the end of Revelation contains the DETAILS which refer BACK to one of God's 7 Days/Ages. The 7th Day is Eternity since it has no morning and no evening, no beginning and no end. God Bless you
 
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Colter

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Not so, since Genesis chapter one is the ENTIRE history of God's 6 Day/Age Creation of the perfect Heaven, filled with perfect mankind, perfect in Christ. We live today at Gen 1:27 since Gen 1:28-31 is Prophecy of events which happen AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon.

All of the rest of the Bible from Genesis 2:4 to the end of Revelation contains the DETAILS which refer BACK to one of God's 7 Days/Ages. The 7th Day is Eternity since it has no morning and no evening, no beginning and no end. God Bless you
The many inconsistencies and errors of the books of the Bible have given rise to any number of imaginative ways to make them appear consistent. Yours is just one of many.

The Hebrew priest created the creation story culling together parts of Mesopotamian lore of ancient times. It was written by Israelites and for an Israelite audience, NOT for "Gentile dogs"! Their is truth to their relationship with Adam, but their genealogical account, interrupted by the vastly exaggerated flood myth, is far from accurate.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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While the OT books contain spiritual truths, there are great exaggerations and cultural arrogance which is simply at odds with reality.

The whole truth about seeking HIM through scripture is when our reality is different from what scripture says, genuine faith causes us to find out WHY it isn't so. Genuine faith will never twist scripture or discount it as truth when reality differs from what it speaks. If one does do that, then that is relying on one's own understanding and not the revelation of the spirit that promises to come and indwell the very inward parts of our being. For the promises found in scripture to become reality, we first have to BELIEVE it IS POSSIBLE, else it never will be so. When we seek HIM with all our heart, mind, soul and strength HE reveals Himself in majesty by HIS spirit and not the mind of human understanding. Genuine faith increases as HE fulfills the promises of God we have sought BECAUSE we believed His Word to be TRUE. Anything else is UNBELIEF.

1 Timothy 6:3-5

Hebrews 11:6

Hebrews 11:1

John 3:18-19

2 Timothy 3:5

Mark 9:23-25

Isaiah 66:2



Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
 
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Colter

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The whole truth about seeking HIM through scripture is when our reality is different from what scripture says, genuine faith causes us to find out WHY it isn't so. Genuine faith will never twist scripture or discount it as truth when reality differs from what it speaks. If one does do that, then that is relying on one's own understanding and not the revelation of the spirit that promises to come and indwell the very inward parts of our being. For the promises found in scripture to become reality, we first have to BELIEVE it IS POSSIBLE, else it never will be so. When we seek HIM with all our heart, mind, soul and strength HE reveals Himself in majesty by HIS spirit and not the mind of human understanding. Genuine faith increases as HE fulfills the promises of God we have sought BECAUSE we believed His Word to be TRUE. Anything else is UNBELIEF.

1 Timothy 6:3-5

Hebrews 11:6

Hebrews 11:1

John 3:18-19

2 Timothy 3:5

Mark 9:23-25

Isaiah 66:2



Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
There are lots of God revealing spiritual truths in scripture, there is also horrific acts of genocide and child rape attributed to deity by those human minds that wrote it.

Jesus taught us to find God in spirit and in truth. Faith doesn't mean believing things that aren't true.
 
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Aseyesee

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Not so, since Genesis chapter one is the ENTIRE history of God's 6 Day/Age Creation of the perfect Heaven, filled with perfect mankind, perfect in Christ. We live today at Gen 1:27 since Gen 1:28-31 is Prophecy of events which happen AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon.

All of the rest of the Bible from Genesis 2:4 to the end of Revelation contains the DETAILS which refer BACK to one of God's 7 Days/Ages. The 7th Day is Eternity since it has no morning and no evening, no beginning and no end. God Bless you

Yep the Bible is a week long ...

David is both the seventh son and the eighth son of Jesse, just as Enoch is both the seventh and eight from Adam. The two truths are one in the same, or one cannot be had without the other.
 
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Aseyesee

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The many inconsistencies and errors of the books of the Bible have given rise to any number of imaginative ways to make them appear consistent. Yours is just one of many.

The Hebrew priest created the creation story culling together parts of Mesopotamian lore of ancient times. It was written by Israelites and for an Israelite audience, NOT for "Gentile dogs"! Their is truth to their relationship with Adam, but their genealogical account, interrupted by the vastly exaggerated flood myth, is far from accurate.

Perception is everything ...
 
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Aseyesee

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There are lots of God revealing spiritual truths in scripture, there is also horrific acts of genocide and child rape attributed to deity by those human minds that wrote it.

Jesus taught us to find God in spirit and in truth. Faith doesn't mean believing things that aren't true.

To me, that is the point, the God at the beginning of the Bible is not God, it is our perception of God.

Does God need to go down to see what he heard was true ... or why be sorry for an outcome you knew would be before you did it ... why would you need to sacrfice your son to make people clean, when reasoning with God makes you clean ...
 
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Colter

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To me, that is the point, the God at the beginning of the Bible is not God, it is our perception of God.

Does God need to go down to see what he heard was true ... or why be sorry for an outcome you knew would be before you did it ... why would you need to sacrfice your son to make people clean, when reasoning with God makes you clean ...
It's the perception of God in the age that Genesis was written, a God who acts like those who wrote it, a God created largely in mans image. The revelation of the true Father in the life of the Son is real and trustworthy.
 
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Aseyesee

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It's the perception of God in the age that Genesis was written, a God who acts like those who wrote it, a God created largely in mans image. The revelation of the true Father in the life of the Son is real and trustworthy.

It is ... but even darkness holds treasures, and truth is not bound by a book, no more than a book can contain the truth; truth and self are synonymous.

What makes a written word vanity is the image that is as something that is outside of a garden, yet as a seed, put into it/her to till the ground.

God speaks to us by son, by the son we are, which truth we see (in the Bible) as purchased by the soul/kingdom freely given, which is the beginning of the finding of her.
 
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miknik5

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It is ... but even darkness holds treasures, and truth is not bound by a book, no more than a book can contain the truth; truth and self are synonymous.

What makes a written word vanity is the image that is as something that is outside of a garden, yet as a seed, put into it/her to till the ground.

God speaks to us by son, by the son we are, which truth we see (in the Bible) as purchased by the soul/kingdom freely given, which is the beginning of the finding of her.
The WORD of GOD is the TESTIMONY of JESUS

For the TESTIMONY of JESUS is THE SPIRIT of prophecy

And there is only ONE TESTIMONY
And those who have passed through the LORD's (seventh day) sabbath unto a new (eighth day) creation IN CHRIST hold to THE TESTIMONY of JESUS
 
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Aseyesee

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The WORD of GOD is the TESTIMONY of JESUS

For the TESTIMONY of JESUS is THE SPIRIT of prophecy

And there is only ONE TESTIMONY
And those who have passed through the LORD's (seventh day) sabbath unto a new (eighth day) creation IN CHRIST hold to THE TESTIMONY of JESUS

Having the testimony of Jesus Christ is synomous with possessing the land, or being a pillar in the house of God, and going no more out (etc.); along with the word of God, purchased with one's own soul that they love not unto death; a truth of Passover.
 
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Aseyesee,

Do you believe John's testimony of JESUS as stated in John 3

I believe the whole book, not just John 3, the whole thing is alive to me, by being alive in me.
 
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miknik5

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Having the testimony of Jesus Christ is synomous with possessing the land, or being a pillar in the house of God, and going no more out (etc.); along with the word of God, purchased with one's own soul that they love not into death; a truth of Passover.
Having the TESTIMONY of JESUS is synonymous to having an inheritance in THE LORD
 
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Having the testimony of Jesus Christ is synomous with possessing the land, or being a pillar in the house of God, and going no more out (etc.); along with the word of God, purchased with one's own soul that they love not into death; a truth of Passover.
You are a Jew
 
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