Adam, Eve, and Evolution

[tonychanyt]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

=====================

CCC starting at 2052.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Please connect your comment to the topic in the OP.

 

[tonychanyt]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

=====================

CCC starting at 2052.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Please connect your comment to the topic in the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Please connect your comment to the topic in this OP.

IT is in regard to the statement about the 7th day of creation week - the literal connection from Ex 20:11 back to Gen 2:1-3 and the fact that all the denominations in that list affirm the Ten going all the way back to Eden with the Sabbath, on the 7th day of the week.


Westminster Confession of Faith
Regarding the TEN -- it states they are given in EDEN to Adam - and the TEN includes the 7th day Sabbath

- regarding the 7th day

CHAPTER XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day.

The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and doth good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and with all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.
...

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

==================================

The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 makes the same case for the origin of the TEN in Eden - so then the Sabbath commandment in Eden.

Then it makes the same point about the origin for that 7th day in Eden.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

Chapter 22: Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day​

...

7. As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished. ( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )

8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy. ( Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13 )

========================

D.L. Moody in his sermon on the TEN makes the same case for the Sabbath in Eden.

This is also true for the Catholic sources.

=====================

This came up regarding the 7th day of the week in Eden in Gen 2:1-3

 

[tonychanyt]

IT is in regard to the statement about the 7th day of creation week

What is the title of this OP thread?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The expanding universe is faster than the speed of light.

That wouldn’t explain how we can see light that shouldn’t have been able to travel to us yet.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That wouldn’t explain how we can see light that shouldn’t have been able to travel to us yet.

The fact that we see the light of the farthest galaxies while they are still far away show that the light from them is coming faster than the galaxies themselves. So the idea that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light is just speculation based on nothing but a fantasy idea brought on by reading too many science fantasy novels.

 

[Halbhh]

Which one of those is an article of the Christian faith?

By talking about another example, it might be helpful to see the big picture on this. Many of us have tried at times to help Flat Earthers get past that false doctrine.

Why? After all, we don't have to correct every inadequate understanding of just any kind anywhere. (and Romans 14 points this out about scripture also)

But there are a few doctrines that block seekers from finding God and Christ and being saved. Flat Earth can be one of those at times.

Both some militant atheists and some few believers try to convince people in general that the Bible says the Earth is flat.

Which would block about 90% of more of seekers if they can convince them of that.

If the bible did really say the Earth was flat (it does not!), that would conclusively prove to a seeker who doesn't yet know God that it must then be that all such parts of the Bible simply entirely false.... and by extension strongly suggest that God cannot exist, or at least not as in the Bible.

So, if Flat Earthers (and certain anti-Christian atheists that wish to destroy faith) can convince the lost that the bible says the Earth is flat, then few would get past that false idea and trust in scripture at all...

And so we try many arguments to try to help them divorce themselves from Flat Earth doctrine. (so that they can stop impeding some seekers)

One of the ways some try to combat the Flat Earth doctrine (which proponents try to base on scripture at times), is by pointing out physical observations:

The Earth is visibly from space an oblate spheroid.

The hope is to help the person caught up in the false Flat Earth doctrine see that the doctrine is false.

But as you might know that rarely works. They think it's all one big science conspiracy...

Now, it's a great question whether pointing out observational facts helps someone caught up in flat earth thinking. Maybe it helps only 5% or less....(I don't know)

It might be better to instead try to get a Christian caught up Flat Earth doctrine to see some particular such verses in scripture doesn't say what they think it does.

I've tried to help at times by quoting such verses in total full context. That way, the verses they have been trained to think support Flat Earth they might possibly begin to understand.

The idea is that if they can finally understand the verses about what they really are saying (wonderful things actually), then that will help them leave the false Flat Earth doctrine.

Do you agree?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The fact that we see the light of the farthest galaxies while they are still far away show that the light from them is coming faster than the galaxies themselves. So the idea that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light is just speculation based on nothing but a fantasy idea brought on by reading too many science fantasy novels.

I still don’t see how that has anything to do with why we can see light on object 3 times farther than we should be able to. And I never said anything about the universe expanding or at what rate it’s expanding. The fact that the objects are moving only mean that what we see now is actually a history of where they were before the light actually travels to us.

 

[Diamond72]

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. embedded in it.

Space-Time Perspective: From a scientific perspective, space-time is the fabric of the universe that combines the dimensions of space and time into a single continuum. Theistic evolution doesn't necessarily comment on the specific mechanisms of space-time but rather focuses on the compatibility of evolutionary processes with the belief in a creator.

"Embedded age" is not a widely recognized or established term in the fields of science or theology. It doesn't appear to refer to any standard concept or principle. It's possible that it could be a term used in a specific context or by a particular group, but without further context or information, it's difficult to provide a clear explanation.

Can you give me a definition of what embedded age is?

 

[tonychanyt]

Space-Time Perspective: From a scientific perspective, space-time is the fabric of the universe that combines the dimensions of space and time into a single continuum. Theistic evolution doesn't necessarily comment on the specific mechanisms of space-time but rather focuses on the compatibility of evolutionary processes with the belief in a creator.

"Embedded age" is not a widely recognized or established term in the fields of science or theology. It doesn't appear to refer to any standard concept or principle. It's possible that it could be a term used in a specific context or by a particular group, but without further context or information, it's difficult to provide a clear explanation.

Can you give me a definition of what embedded age is?

Good question. Where did you see me using the term "embedded age" other than in response to your using it first?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Lord is omniscient, right? That not only means everywhere but at every time also. So the Lord is at, forming Adam out of dirt from the ground right now.

Bless you friend I just wanted to clarify omniscient means God is all knowing, omnipresent means He is everywhere in all time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, imagine the Lord at the dawn of creation looks forward into time...Does He have the same view that we do? No because we are on a lineal path so when we look back into time (Lol) we are looking through the expansion of spacetime and that's bound to make us thrown off enough to think, wow 13.5 Billion years ago...when from Jesus perspective, looking forward it's only been a little over 6 thousand years, or 6 days for the Lord and Heaven.

In actuality since God exists in all time there’s not really any looking forward or back for Him because He’s constantly seeing everything simultaneously. In the same way there is no waiting for anything to happen. When God created, from His perspective it’s instantaneous because He’s viewing both the beginning and the end simultaneously as well as all eternity. Therefore the reference to the 6 day creation cannot refer to creation from God’s perspective it can only refer to creation from man’s perspective because from God’s perspective there is no past, present, or future there is only eternity of time. So every time the scriptures mention a time frame whether it be past, present, future, or duration, it is always related to our perspective not His. So God can’t create one day then wait until the next day to create again according to His perspective. That waiting period is according to our perspective because He is always in both day one and day two and every day for all eternity at the same time, it’s all happening simultaneously in His perspective.

 

[Divide]

Bless you friend I just wanted to clarify omniscient means God is all knowing, omnipresent means He is everywhere in all time.

It sure does! I think I was on auto pilot that day and out of calibration, lol!

Thx. I fixed it.

 

[Divide]

In actuality since God exists in all time there’s not really any looking forward or back for Him because He’s constantly seeing everything simultaneously.

It has to be so, otherwise in heaven there would be no yesterday, today or tomorrow.

In actuality since God exists in all time there’s not really any looking forward or back for Him because He’s constantly seeing everything simultaneously. In the same way there is no waiting for anything to happen. When God created, from His perspective it’s instantaneous because He’s viewing both the beginning and the end simultaneously as well as all eternity. Therefore the reference to the 6 day creation cannot refer to creation from God’s perspective it can only refer to creation from man’s perspective because from God’s perspective there is no past, present, or future there is only eternity of time. So every time the scriptures mention a time frame whether it be past, present, future, or duration, it is always related to our perspective not His. So God can’t create one day then wait until the next day to create again according to His perspective. That waiting period is according to our perspective because He is always in both day one and day two and every day for all eternity at the same time, it’s all happening simultaneously in His perspective.

I guess that shows us just how patient that God really is with us!

 

[Diamond72]

Good question. Where did you see me using the term "embedded age" other than in response to your using it first?

So is the universe billions of years old or one week old? The phrase "God said" appears ten times in Genesis chapter one. I am sure God spoke the Universe into existence in a week. I am surprised it took Him a whole week to do what science says happens in an instant. A unit of time much smaller than a trillioneth of a second.

So what you say took a whole week of literal 24 hour days, science says happens in an instant. The phrase "God knows the end from the beginning" is often used to convey the idea that God possesses complete knowledge of all events, outcomes, and circumstances throughout time.

The phrase "God said" appears ten times in Genesis chapter one. These occurrences refer to the statements made by God during the creation narrative, where He commands various aspects of creation into existence. Here's a breakdown of where the phrase appears:

1. "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light."
2. "And God said, 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'"
3. "And God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.'"
4. "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth'; and it was so."
5. "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years.'"
6. "And God said, 'Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.'"
7. "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind'; and it was so."
8. "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'"
9. "And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"
10. "And God said, 'See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.'"

These instances of "God said" emphasize the divine command and creative power through which God brings the various elements of creation into existence.

 

[tonychanyt]

So is the universe billions of years old or one week old?

In terms of space-time, it is billions of years old.

From my understanding, it cannot be one week old because I was there one week ago.

 

[Diamond72]

From my understanding, it cannot be one week old because I was there one week ago.

I did drafting in College before they had computers. We could plan it all out on paper. It would not take more than a week. When we went to build it took a lot longer and a lot more diligence. Although we could build a house in a week. Even possible to build a house in a day. But you can not build a whole city in a day. Not that I know of.

 

[tonychanyt]

I did drafting in College before they had computers. We could plan it all out on paper. It would not take more than a week. When we went to build it took a lot longer and a lot more diligence. Although we could build a house in a week. Even possible to build a house in a day. But you can not build a whole city in a day. Not that I know of.

Sorry, I am slow. And your point is ...

 

[FireDragon76]

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. embedded in it.

Neanderthals belong to the species of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. Today's humans belong to Homo sapiens sapiens. Both groups are humans (Homo sapiens). Both have 46 chromosomes though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time, as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in real-time (or witnessed-time) history as described in Genesis. Genesis 3:

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.​

Acts 17:

26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.​

In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. They are both real.

See also Scientists woke up a 46,000-year-old roundworm from Siberian permafrost.

Neanderthals never went away completely. They interbred with modern humans. 4 percent of my DNA is from neanderthals. Among people of European ancestry, that is typical.

Another human subspecies were Denisovans. In certain parts of Asia, their DNA survives, similar to Neanderthals.

Neanderthals were physically adapted to living during the last great ice age. They didn't seem to evidence the same kind of cultural development we find in Homo sapiens, however- we don't see extensive evidence of spiritual beliefs or art, for instance, though they did practice burial.

 

[Diamond72]

Sorry, I am slow. And your point is .

"The Paradigm: The Ancient Blueprint That Holds the Mystery of Our Times." This book is written by Jonathan Cahn, a Messianic Jewish pastor, and author. "The Paradigm" was published in 2017 and became a bestseller.

In the book, Cahn presents a theory that he believes identifies parallels between ancient biblical figures and events and contemporary political and historical figures. He suggests that patterns from the Old Testament can be seen in modern times and that these patterns may provide insight into the current state of affairs.