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Adam, Eve, and Evolution

Presbyterian Continuist

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Sure, see Is a yom/day always = 24 hours? and follow up there :)
The reference in the link still has "yom" as a 24 hour day. It does mention a period of a year, but it is expressed in multiples of 24 hour days. None of it changes the basic meaning of the word. The expression "day of our Lord" does mention a particular time, but it does not mention morning or evening, therefore it is not the same as Genesis 1-3 where the word "yom" includes evening and morning. That means in that passage, "yom" definitely means a 24 hour day. If God did create the world in millions of years, He would have said so. He would not have used the word "yom" in connection with it. A nice try, but no cigar!
 
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tonychanyt

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The reference in the link still has "yom" as a 24 hour day.
Then please follow up there. The relevant data is over there. It will help you focus better if you follow up there. This is the 3rd time I am asking this.
 
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Jipsah

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If you are not prepared to accept the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as a 24 hour day, then there is no further point in discussing this any further. You can explain your opinion when you stand before the Lord on the day of judgment.
Ah, a variation on the old reliable "if you don't believe my line of rubbish then you're probably not a Real Christian". I reckon I'll run that risk.
 
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BobRyan

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Watchman1 said:

If you are not prepared to accept the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as a 24 hour day,'

Good point
1. A single rotation of the planet .,.. a single "evening and morning" for each day in Gen 1
2. A single day - "six days you shall labor... for in six days the LORD made.." in Ex 20. A single (real) day.

Glaringly obvious for the one not determined to eisegete their own preference... no matter the bent-wrenched result it makes of the text.
Sure, see Is a yom/day always = 24 hours? and follow up there :)
As the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis themselves affirm - the term yom in Ex 20:8-11 cannot be bent-wrenched each time you see it to mean something entirely different from the previous use in those verses - and still have solid exegesis as the result.

Almost all Christian denominations affirm this same glaringly obvious point in the Hebrew text of Ex 20.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Then please follow up there. The relevant data is over there. It will help you focus better if you follow up there. This is the 3rd time I am asking this.
I looked at the data and it didn't convince me that the word "yom" wasn't referring to anything else but a 24 hour day. I think you are trying to work the wording into your own premise, rather than adjusting your premise to go along with the actual wording of the Bible. I don't have a person premise to try and prove by juggling word meanings. All I do is to read the literal text of the Bible and believe what it says.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Ah, a variation on the old reliable "if you don't believe my line of rubbish then you're probably not a Real Christian". I reckon I'll run that risk.
I never said that you are not a real Christian. That would be against the forum rules. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. We all will have to stand before Christ one day and give our account for the way we live our lives. There is a range of good scholars who have different views of the origin of the universe, and there are just as many who believe in an old earth as there are who believe in a young earth. Both sides give good reasons why they believe the way they do.

As for me, I take the Bible seriously and literally. That is my choice. If you choose something else, that is your own affair. Actually, I don't care what you choose to believe, and I care even less when others decide to kick me instead of the ball. It is like the preacher who has a section of his sermon heavily underlined with a note in the margin: "Shout for all you're worth. Argument very weak!" So I would adapt that as saying, "Kick me as much as you like, because that is a sign of a weak argument."
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It is the best theory they have to explain the evidence that God gives us. In a court of law, it is the best argument right now as "creationists" cannot win over evolutionists. Much debate goes into what we read in our Biology book and everyone gets to take their part in the discussion. Although I told my son to stay out of the debate and just read his book, because they are required to know Biology in order to qualify to graduate from High School.

He kept his grades very high and people were throwing money at him for his college education. He graduated cum laude and he was debt-free.
Very wise advice. There is nothing wrong with studying Biology at school and getting a good understanding of the theory of Evolution and how it works, without having to believe it. Some Christians feel that they have to defend Creationism at all costs, even to undermining their education.

When I did religious studies at Teachers College, the tutor's theology was Post Modern Liberalism, and he treated the Bible as allegory, God was the first cause, Jesus was the Christ of faith rather than the Person of history, and the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ were not true. We had Christians in the class who spent more time arguing with him than seeking to understand what Post Modernism was all about. I didn't try and argue. I sought to understand what he was teaching us, but that didn't mean that I had to believe it. I believe that if a believer is confident and stable in his faith, he can spend time understanding other theologies without having to alter his own theology to suit. This is not being dishonest. It is strategy.

When I studied Psychology at university, we were given a good understanding of all the different Psychological theories, including Freud, Rogers, Berne, Jung, etc. Some of those theories were useful as tools when I had the opportunity to counsel people, but for me the bottom line was what the Bible said. I learned that I could use the tools and methods of Psychology without accepting the atheistic theory behind them. It's like Charles Wesley choosing tunes which were sung in the local taverns to put with his hymns. His view was, "Why should the devil have the best music?"

So, if getting good grades at school sets one up for the future, then that is the priority. All that is needed is a good understanding of the subject, even Evolutionary Biology. All the assignments and exams seek is to show understanding. They do not require one to believe it. When one seeks to understand the enemy and his methods, he doesn't have to believe that he is right.
 
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tonychanyt

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I looked at the data and it didn't convince me that the word "yom" wasn't referring to anything else but a 24 hour day.
Then please follow up there. The relevant data is over there. It will help you focus better if you follow up there. This is the 4th time I am asking this.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

Almost all Christian denominations affirm this same glaringly obvious point in the Hebrew text of Ex 20.
reference?
see my signature line -

In all these cases when they address "the TEN" they freely admit that the Sabbath commandment in Ex 20 is a reference to 7 literal days so then in Ex 20:8 "six DAYS you shall labor"... Ex 20:11 "for in SIX Days the Lord made".

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
 
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tonychanyt

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BobRyan said:

Almost all Christian denominations affirm this same glaringly obvious point in the Hebrew text of Ex 20.

see my signature line -

In all these cases when they address "the TEN" they freely admit that the Sabbath commandment in Ex 20 is a reference to 7 literal days so then in Ex 20:8 "six DAYS you shall labor"... Ex 20:11 "for in SIX Days the Lord made".

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
Thanks for sharing. Can you prove your claim by referencing in a scholarly manner:
  1. Give the name of the source.
  2. Provide the link to the source. It is the URL address.
  3. Indent the quoted text.
  4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
  5. Be concise and to the point.
This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you: it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Then please follow up there. The relevant data is over there. It will help you focus better if you follow up there. This is the 4th time I am asking this.
No. I'm not going to do that. You have my answer.
 
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Jipsah

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I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Gee, thanks!
As for me, I take the Bible seriously and literally.
Well, I take some Scriptures literally because they're the words of our Lord Christ that you'd deny at the top of your lungs. But you'll have to give account for that yourself, won't you?
Actually, I don't care what you choose to believe
Ditto. Personally I reckon you're majoring in the minors. The details of the Creation are, in the end, not matters on which our salvation depends. For instance, Muslims believe that God created the universe in 6 literal days, but most Christians would be unlikely to agree that the Islamic faith offers a path to salvation.

I personally believe that whether the Creation "days" were 24 hours or 24 milllion years long is insignificant. God isn't bound by time. But the Words of our Lord Christ, by Whom all things were made, are best taken literally, while most "evangelicals"find the idea preposterous. "Well He can't possibly have meant that. It was just a metaphor!" Kinda depends on the doctrine you've embraced.
It is like the preacher who has a section of his sermon heavily underlined with a note in the margin: "Shout for all you're worth. Argument very weak!" So I would adapt that as saying, "Kick me as much as you like, because that is a sign of a weak argument."
No interest in kicking you, and a claim to being unjustly put upon isn't much of a defence for an ill-founded doctrine, is it?

BTW, I got no response on this reference:

2 Peter 3:8-1
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Apparently St. Peter didn't get the memo on the 24 hour thing. Time is irrelevant to God.
 
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tonychanyt

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No. I'm not going to do that. You have my answer.
So, you do not want to go to a thread with the proper data and evidence and argue there. I'll bring the data here. The following is from Wiki:
Although yom is commonly rendered as day in English translations, the word yom can be used in different ways to refer to different time spans:

  • Point of time (a specific day)
  • time period of a whole or half a day:
    • Period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
    • Sunrise to sunset
    • Sunset to next sunset
  • General term for time ( as in 'days of our lives')
  • A year "lived a lot of days"
  • Time period of unspecified length. "days and days"
 
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BobRyan

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Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
Thanks for sharing. Can you prove your claim by referencing in a scholarly manner:
  1. Give the name of the source.
  2. Provide the link to the source. It is the URL address.
  3. Indent the quoted text.
  4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
  5. Be concise and to the point.
This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you: it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

=============================

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith - Wikisource, the free online library


Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

19. The Law of God


1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.


26. 4
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. In Him, by the appointment of the Father, is vested in a supreme and sovereign manner all power for the calling, institution, order, or government of the Church. The Pope of Rome cannot in any sense be head of the Church, but he is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God, who the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.
====================================================================

D.L. Moody affirms the TEN Commandments


====================================================================

Westminster Confession of Faith -
The Confession of Faith of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster - Wikisource, the free online library

CHAPTER XIX.
Of the Law of God.
God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the four first commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judical laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither doth Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law; and, not under grace.

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.

================================
 
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BobRyan

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Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
Thanks for sharing. Can you prove your claim by referencing in a scholarly manner:
  1. Give the name of the source.
  2. Provide the link to the source. It is the URL address.
  3. Indent the quoted text.
  4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
  5. Be concise and to the point.
This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you: it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

=============================

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

=====================

CCC starting at 2052.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
 
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