• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Aclu Strikes Back

euphoric

He hates these cans!!
Jun 22, 2002
480
5
49
Visit site
✟23,271.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
platzapS said:
There is no reason why the Boy Scouts should be denied that park, and there is also no reason that Boy Scouts should have excluded all gays and atheists.

If I understand the situation correctly, they weren't denied use of the park. They were denied the steep discount they had been receiving for use of the park. In other words, they were paying much less than other organizations to use the same facilities. In effect, this amounts to the city subsidizing the local BSA chapter. Frankly, singling them out for a discount seems like an absurd thing for them to do in the first place. They should have to pay the same rate any other private organization pays.

-brett
 
Upvote 0

alonesoldier

Senior Veteran
Dec 30, 2002
2,861
81
45
Lawton Oklahoma, Officer Career Course
✟3,405.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Actually your not understanding the story completely, the city had that land given to them with the expressed wish of the former owner that it be used for the scouts. The scouts provide the up keep for the park and have always used it. The only reason the park exist is because scouts cleared it out and it was given to the city for the scouts. Now they can't do business with the scouts because its a religious organization. It will get thrown out, all the ACLU did here was send this to the surpreme court so that a national law will be passed saying judges cant do this type of thing.
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟33,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
alonesoldier said:
Actually your not understanding the story completely, the city had that land given to them with the expressed wish of the former owner that it be used for the scouts. The scouts provide the up keep for the park and have always used it. The only reason the park exist is because scouts cleared it out and it was given to the city for the scouts. Now they can't do business with the scouts because its a religious organization. It will get thrown out, all the ACLU did here was send this to the surpreme court so that a national law will be passed saying judges cant do this type of thing.

Please document your claim
 
Upvote 0

Philosoft

Orthogonal, Tangential, Tenuously Related
Dec 26, 2002
5,427
188
52
Southeast of Disorder
Visit site
✟6,503.00
Faith
Atheist
alonesoldier said:
The only reason the park exist is because scouts cleared it out and it was given to the city for the scouts.
How does this relate to the constitutionality issue?
Now they can't do business with the scouts because its a religious organization.
Are you not paying attention? They can lease the land to the BSA at fair market price, but not at the discounted price.
It will get thrown out,
It won't.
all the ACLU did here was send this to the surpreme court so that a national law will be passed saying judges cant do this type of thing.
Can't do what "type of thing"? Prevent the state from subsidizing a self-proclaimed religious group? If that ever becomes legal, I'll pimp myself and give the profits to church-state separation advocacy groups.
 
Upvote 0

Brimshack

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2002
7,275
473
59
Arizona
✟12,010.00
Faith
Atheist
As usual O'Reilly does his best to avoid the issue. He literally doesn't have an answer to the decision, so he just draws people's attention away from it and issues a series of blanket judgements on the subject. But he knows that there are lots of people out there who lack the intellectual integrity to address the issue themselves, and they will love him for telling them what they want to hear.
 
Upvote 0

Brimshack

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2002
7,275
473
59
Arizona
✟12,010.00
Faith
Atheist
On Barton, no historian gets to simply declare the facts of history based on his own authority, degrees and awards or not; they must document their claims. And that means responding to presses for evidence in a straight-foreword manner. Saying that Barton has a degree and some awards means nothing in the face of specific challenges to specific assertions which have gone unanswered for some time now.

And I wonder TT, do you show this much deference to academics in general, or just to the ones with whom you share a political agenda?
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟33,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
alonesoldier said:
The boyscouts are not a self proclaimed religious group.

They have declaired themselves to be a private membership organization in which religion is a key part of their mandate. They went to the US Supreme Court and argued for their right to discriminate against gays on the basis of religious belief. They won. That makes them, by definition, a religious organization.
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
crazyfingers said:
The BSA discriminates on the basis of religion and still got preferential treatment from the government by paying rent of only $1 when any other group would have to pay the market rate.

Rubbish. The BSA is saying "you can do whatever you want, but you're not doing it in our organization. Smell ya later". Nothing to do with religion, merely sexual preference. I've seen you try and twist things to make your argument more than once. We've gone through this before, and when provided with evidence, you go running off, trying to defame me and convince the world that you're not going to talk to me anymore.


Philosoft said:
The oath requires a pledge of loyalty to God. What do you call that? Ceremonial deism?

In essence, so does the Pledge of Allegiance. Does that make the USA a religious organization? ;)

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Just a little bit more evidence to support my assertion on the Pledge of Allegiance claim. Just in case.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0206/timeline.pledge.allegiance/content.5.html

1954

Worried that orations used by "godless communists" sound similar to the Pledge of Allegiance, religious leaders lobby lawmakers to insert the words "under God" into the pledge. President Dwight D. Eisenhower, fearing an atomic war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, joins the chorus to put God into the pledge. Congress does what he asks, and the revised pledge reads: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Source: The Associated Press and Encyclopedia Britannica Inc.
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/

The appeals court noted that when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
http://www.aclj.org/resources/patdisplays/pledge/phrases_supct.asp

Now, let's cite Justice Potter Stewart in including the word God in statements and pledges.

In a dissenting opinion, Justice Potter Stewart cited the many examples of how the government has consistently recognized the "deeply entrenched and highly cherished spiritual traditions of our nation." Id. at 450 (Stewart, dissenting). Specifically, he referred to the following: 1) The Supreme Court's practice of opening its sessions with the phrase, "God save the United States and this Honorable Court;" 2) the legislative branches' practice of opening their sessions with prayer; and 3) Presidential appeals (from George Washington to Dwight Eisenhower) to God for protection and help. Id. at 446-49 n.3. Justice Stewart also referred to the National Motto and the Pledge of Allegiance as examples of governmental recognition that "[w]e are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Id. (quoting Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306, 313 (1952)).

And now Justice Douglas

Although he concurred with the result in Engel, Justice Douglas nevertheless agreed with Justice Stewart that the New York prayer practices were akin to other governmental actions that recognized of our nation's religious heritage, including the Pledge of Allegiance.

What New York does on the opening of its public schools is what we do when we open court. Our Crier has from the beginning announced the convening of the Court and then added "God save the United States and this Honorable Court." That utterance is a supplication, a prayer in which we, the judges, are free to join, but which we need not recite any more than the students need recite the New York prayer. What New York does on the opening of its public schools is what each House of Congress does at the opening of each day's business.

Id. at 439-40 & n.5 (pointing out that the addition of the phrase "under God" to the Pledge was another example of this nation's recognition of a Supreme Being).
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Philosoft said:
The oath requires a pledge of loyalty to God. What do you call that? Ceremonial deism?

Incidentally, a really interesting page I'm reading defines religion as follows:

1. A religion deals with issues of ultimate concern; with what makes life worth living; with basic attitudes toward fundamental problems of human existence.
2. A religion presents a comprehensive set of ideas--usually as "truth," not just theory.
3. A religion generally has surface signs (such as clergy, observed holidays, and ritual) that can be analogized to well-recognized religions.

The BSA doesn't fall under this definition. :)
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

At an absolute minimum, the Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion, such as existed in many other countries at the time of the nation's founding. It is far less clear whether the Establishment Clause was also intended to prevent the federal government from supporting Christianity in general. Proponents of a narrow interpretation of the clause point out that the same First Congress that proposed the Bill of Rights also opened its legislative day with prayer and voted to apportion federal dollars to establish Christian missions in the Indian lands. On the other hand, persons seeing a far broader meaning in the clause point to writings by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison suggesting the need to establish "a wall of separation" between church and state.

In the case of Zorach v. Clauson, Justice Stewart said the Constitution does not require:

callous indifference to religion.

Further to this, for the Supreme Court to uphold a decision under the Establishment Clause, they would have to rule that the Boy Scouts is a religious organization. As you can see from the definition, the Boy Scouts are no more religious than your local Burger King.
 
Upvote 0

SirKenin

Contributor
Jun 26, 2003
6,518
526
from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits
✟9,370.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think it's very important that we know WHY Chief Justice Rehnquist and the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the BSA. I will address that quickly in this post. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous assertions in this forum.

Anyways, to summate:

The U.S. Congress chartered Boy Scouts of America in 1916, with the declared purpose of promoting "the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues."

Scout Oath "On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

The First Amendment does not prohibit practices, which by any realistic measure, create none of the dangers which it is designed to prevent and which do not so directly or substantially involve the state in religious exercises or in the favoring of religion as to have meaningful and practical impact. It is of course true that great consequences can grow from small beginnings, but the measure of constitutional adjudication is the ability and willingness to distinguish between real threat and mere shadow.

For the Boy Scouts to include "God" in their Pledge in no way defines them as a religion or a religious organization. Certainly not monotheistic. Rather, as Justice Stewart said in regards to a strikingly similar Pledge, an indication that we as a society "presuppose a Supreme Being".

Although in 1962 (Engel v Vitale) the Court ruled that "government . . . should stay out of the business of writing or sanctioning official prayers and leave that purely religious function to the people themselves," the Court explained,
"...There is of course nothing in the decision reached here that is inconsistent with the fact that school children and others are officially encouraged to express love for our country by reciting historical documents such as the Declaration of Independence which contain references to the Deity or by singing officially espoused anthems which include the composer's professions of faith in a Supreme Being, or with the fact that there are many manifestations in our public life of belief in God.

The Establishment Clause, then, viewed through the eyes of Court precedents, is to keep the government out of religion and leave religion to the people. They aren't to sponsor it, in other words, financially or otherwise. Justice O'Connor established the Endorsement Test.

http://www.fac.org/rel_liberty/establishment/index.aspx

The Establishment Clause prohibits government from making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person's standing in the political community.” Her (Justice O'Connor's) fundamental concern was whether the particular government action conveys “a message to non-adherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.

On June 28, 2000, Chief Justice Rehnquist of the Supreme Court ruled that the BSA was a private, not-for-profit organization [where membership is a privilege, not a right] with the Constitutional Right of Expressive Association. Just because they deny admission based on sexual orientation does not make them a religion. Just because they require a pledge like this:

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout law

does not make them a religion. As a matter of fact, that pledge sounds strikingly like the Pledge of Allegiance that the Supreme Court consistently upholds.

Therefore, it is in my opinion that based upon these quotes provided, the Supreme Court will be placed in a difficult position. A veritable can of worms. If they declare the BSA to be accountable under the Establishment Clause as suggested here, thus not eligible for government handouts, they have to a) establish that BSA is a religion, even though the precedent has already been set; and b) measure all instances that use the word "God" in like manner with the same measure, or Endorsement Test.

In 1989, Justice Kennedy provided many examples of official acknowledgements of religion that would be unconstitutional under the endorsement test (proposed by Justice O'Connor) including Congress' decision to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

If you want to argue this broad an interpretation of separation of Church and State, then you must include the Pledge of Allegiance. However, the Court has time and time again stood in defence of the Pledge, even when it has struck prayers down that have stood by it's side in ceremony, such as the Graduation Prayer. The only time the Pledge was successfully argued against, it was ordered out of schools in the 9th District by the 9th District United States Appeals Courts. The Pledge is currently before the Supreme Court, but the Senators are in the midst of passing a bill to prevent lower courts from hearing such cases as being violations of the First Amendment.

My guess is the ruling gets overturned.
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟33,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
drfeelgood said:
Rubbish. The BSA is saying "you can do whatever you want, but you're not doing it in our organization. Smell ya later". Nothing to do with religion, merely sexual preference.

They require belief in a supreme being for membership. They even have a form that one is required to sign. You appear to be unaware of that fact.

Don't you remember the national flap last November when an Eagle Scout was kicked out when he revealed that he is an atheist?

In any case, your statement above is not correct.

I've seen you try and twist things to make your argument more than once. We've gone through this before, and when provided with evidence, you go running off, trying to defame me and convince the world that you're not going to talk to me anymore.
And try to sap your precious bodily fluids as well.
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟33,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
drfeelgood said:
The appeals court noted that when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."


http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/

It's pretty clear from that quote that religion was a large part of the motivation for Eisenhower. That makes the law that added "Under God" to the pledge unconstitutional on the basis that it does not pass the first prong of the Lemon Test which says that laws must have a secular purpose.

What in particular is your point?
 
Upvote 0