Accountable for our beliefs

[JustJack!]

Pre-determination and free will can not co-exist. It's just that simple.

 

[Telephone]

No, you already have a thing in your mind, If I just say an answer and not explain it, then you will just run w/ it.....so I'd rather not waste my time. Bye.

Then please give me answer and explain that answer?

"At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

 

[TooCurious]

I know you will not accept this as a real argument but it is the best I have for you at this time. God knows and God allows. God also has and understanding far beyond our understanding, far beyond anything we can even begin to fathom. I would have to say the would be part of being God. There are things we don't know and that is part of faith. Faith is trusting even when you aren't sure what it is. Not completely blind because there are things that I do know and understand, but there are things held for God. Until the day I am before him I will have to wait for those answers. IMHO that is why some Christians get too caught up in the end times. They are just ready for God so they can know. They forget about things will be done in His time, not mine. Like I said I know you won't take this for a real debate answer so you can just read it as my personal opinion about my faith.

Thank you for your response. And I do accept it; saying "I don't yet know the answer" is perfectly valid, and what's more, it's honest. Maybe I will find someone else who has a different answer to my question.

 

[JustJack!]

Another problem with Christianity, too many unanswerable questions.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Then please give me answer and explain that answer?

"At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

I'll give this one last try.

What God knows to happen will, I'm not denying that, but man Himself chooses for the outcome to be what it is all throughout their life by their choices/actions which they choose....and everyone has the option and possibility to choose God.

 

[Telephone]

I'll give this one last try.

What God knows to happen will, I'm not denying that, but man Himself chooses for the outcome to be what it is all throughout their life by their choices/actions which they choose....and everyone has the option and possibility to choose God.

I realise you believe God knows what will happen to all.

I realise you have never denied that.

I realise you believe that man chooses his outcome by his choices/actions.

I realise that you believe everyone has the option and possibility to choose god.

You have stated your beliefs clearly and repeatedly, I understand where you are coming from.

But I ask you a simple question that you choose to ignore and instead simply re-state your beliefs.


Could you possibly answer the question I have asked you ?

Q: "At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has known for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

 

[JustJack!]

You're asking the wrong question.

If God knows my fate before I am born, then it is pre-ordained, it is predestined. I have no choice. My life is merely a script. And if I do choose against God's foreknowledge, then God that makes God fallible.

If God knew what my choice would be before I ever made that choice, then that's it. My destiny is set. Anything else is contradictory.

Choosing your fate is an oxymoron.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

....

 

[Telephone]

Hi Lilly of the Valley

Could you answer the question I have asked you ?

Q: "At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has known for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Hi Lilly of the Valley

Could you answer the question I have asked you ?

Q: "At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has known for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

?

You have the opprotunity to all during your life. For the same reasons I stated before.

 

[TooCurious]

I'd like to jump in here, if that's okay and I'm not stepping on anybody's toes?

Lilly, it seems to me that the way you understand the situation is that God's foreknowledge of a person's choice does not remove the reality of that person's ability to choose. I would agree with you--if we had not defined got as omniscient and infallible. An example:

Let's say I offer you two dessert options: apple pie or chocolate cake. If, for the sake of this hypothetical, you are going to choose one of the two options, I can make a guess as to which one you will choose. If I knew you very well and was familiar with your dessert preferences, I might have a very high chance of being right. Let's say that I guess that you will pick the chocolate cake. My guessing that does not preclude you from deciding to do something different, and choosing the apple pie. You have full freedom of choice up until the moment your dessert hits the table.

This is because I, a human person, am not infallible, nor can I see the future. If I were infallible and could see the future, and I had a vision of you choosing the chocolate cake, from that point forward you would be unable to choose the pie. I know you will pick the cake; I saw the future, and I am never wrong. If you chose the pie, that would make me wrong, and that is, in this example, impossible. Therefore, you must choose the cake; there is no other option. You may have the illusion that you are choosing the cake of your own free will, and could have chosen the pie if you wanted to, but this is not so. Your choosing the pie would have made me wrong, and that is impossible. Therefore, you could not have done it. You had only one choice: cake.

That is the point of view I'm coming from, and I think that Telephone is as well (but I don't claim to speak for him). Either God cannot infallibly know what our future actions will be, or we do not have true freedom of choice.

 

[Telephone]

Q: "At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has known for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

You have the opprotunity to all during your life. For the same reasons I stated before.

Lilly thanks for directly engaging in the question, much appreciated.

You say I have the opportunity to change from a path leading to hell "all during my life".

But how can this be !?

To change from a path that leads to hell to one that leads to heaven would mean god's knowledge that I am bound for hell would be incorrect - (a certain inerrant knowledge he has held for eternity).

I am aware that god is both omniscient and inerrant, so how could this be ?

How could I change my choices "all during my life" when to do so would render an inerrant god wrong !?


?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Q: "At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has known for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"




Lilly thanks for directly engaging in the question, much appreciated.

You say I have the opportunity to change from a path leading to hell "all during my life".

But how can this be !?

To change from a path that leads to hell to one that leads to heaven would mean god's knowledge that I am bound for hell would be incorrect - (a certain inerrant knowledge he has held for eternity).

I am aware that god is both omniscient and inerrant, so how could this be ?

How could I change my choices "all during my life" when to do so would render an inerrant god wrong !?


?

No, what God knows to happen will happen. But what God knows to happen as the outcome is of your own choice. Changing choices won't make God wrong since God will know it already.

 

[Telephone]

Hi Lilly.

No, what God knows to happen will happen.

100% agree, an omniscient god necessitates this notion.

But what God knows to happen as the outcome is of your own choice. Changing choices won't make God wrong since God will know it already.

Again I agree with you here.

I may start life as a devout Christian, lose my faith and become an atheist, then return to the church then years later leave once more and generally swap and change my views until I 'find' my final 'truth' of either faith or non-faith, the ultimate choice that god will judge me on.

God will know, beforehand, of my flitting between faith and non-faith and he will also know beforehand of my final settlement on either one of the numerous superstitions such as Christianity or a life without faith.

Regardless of the myriad of choices and decisions, actions, mistakes, 'sins' and so on, god will know the final outcome.

I may change my mind a hundred times, this will make no difference to god, I cannot outwit him or hide my actions from him, he will always know the final outcome.

God will know how I will be eventually judged.

God has know this for all eternity.

He has know this from before I was born.

He has know I will 'choose' to disbelieve from before I was conceived.

God is inerrant, he cannot be wrong.


If god knows I will be cast into hell from before I was born, where is my route to salvation to come from?

If I have made any errors in this post, anything I have said that is incorrect, please point it out to me


The 'choice' we are considering here is illusory, ostensible, my fate is fixed from before my life by the inerrant nature of an omniscient diety

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You are missing it. I don't think I can explain it in a way you can understand.

 

[Telephone]

You are missing it. I don't think I can explain it in a way you can understand.

Ok, this is not an easy one!

Please read the points below and tell me if you think any are correct or not.

________


A) God knows my fate, be it heaven or hell.

B) He has known my fate for all eternity.

C) 5000 years before my birth, god knew I would be a non-believer.

D) Omnipotence negates mistake, he cannot be wrong about my fate.

E) Regardless of my actions or attempts to outwit god, the fate that awaits me, the fate he has know for all eternity, is the fate that will greet me on death.


_________


Do we agree on these basic points ? please say if you consider any to be wrong and I will try and clarify my point or, if shown it to be wrong, withdraw it.

_________

 

[Godfixated]

Since belief is not in our control how can we be held accountable for it?

The problem with this post is that you are asking a somewhat leading question with an assumption that you already have. The thing is that belief is definitely in our control. You can choose to believe that the eiffel tower is in Paris, yet, you can choose to believe that it is in Washington DC. There is nothing incontrollable about our beliefs. You chose to believe that belief is out of our control. So, I think that that pretty much sums up the fact that since belief is under our control, then we are held accountable for our beliefs.

 

[Telephone]

The thing is that belief is definitely in our control.

You can choose to believe that the eiffel tower is in Paris,

You do not 'choose' to believe that the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, do you honestly remember choosing to believe this ?

If you stand in front of the Eiffel Tower and look up at it, are you honestly saying you make a choice as to whether it is there or not ?

Has anyone ever stood in front of the Eiffel Tower and chose to believe it is not there ? I doubt it very much.

yet, you can choose to believe that it is in Washington DC.

How ?

Can you honestly tell me, that you can leave your computer right now and go and sit down and choose to believe the Eiffel Tower is in Washington DC ?

And after you have made this choice do you really, honestly believe the Eiffel Tower is in Washington DC ?

This notion is agenda driven intellectual dishonesty.

 

[icbeckyc]

At what point during my life can I change the path away from the one that leads to a Christian hell, the one that god knows I will choose ?

What if he knows you are going to change in the future? He knows what is to come. Is he to give up on you because in a period of your life you will be questioning his exsitance. Are you so certain that nothing can ever change?

 

[TooCurious]

The problem with this post is that you are asking a somewhat leading question with an assumption that you already have. The thing is that belief is definitely in our control. You can choose to believe that the eiffel tower is in Paris, yet, you can choose to believe that it is in Washington DC. There is nothing incontrollable about our beliefs. You chose to believe that belief is out of our control. So, I think that that pretty much sums up the fact that since belief is under our control, then we are held accountable for our beliefs.

I cannot choose to believe that the Eiffel Tower is in Washington, D.C. instead of in Paris; I have no evidence to support such a notion, and much evidence that contradicts it. I cannot dupe myself into believing something for which I have no evidence. If I could, I would be unable to do so while maintaining any shred of intellectual honesty. I do not "choose" beliefs. I am persuaded by evidence. You've heard the phrase, "compelling evidence"? It's accurate. Good evidence compels belief, because it points to a single description of reality.

I could lie to myself, throw away my integrity, and pretend to believe something that I have no reason to think is true. If I did so for long enough, maybe I could even dupe myself into believing the thing. But all that gives me is a lack of integrity and an unsupported belief. And honestly, if there is a God, is that the way he would want me to come to him?