Accountable for our beliefs

[JustJack!]

We choose and God just knows that choice.

Thus we have no choice at all because it is pre-ordained and can not be changed, thus God specifically creates people who's ultimate fate is hell.

You can't have free-will and predestination at the same time. I honestly don't know how many more ways I can it. It makes no logical sence. Contradiction. Error! Error! Does not compute!

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Thus we have no choice at all because it is pre-ordained and can not be changed, thus God specifically creates people who's ultimate fate is hell.

You can't have free-will and predestination at the same time. I honestly don't know how many more ways I can say it. It makes no logical sence. Contradiction. Error! Error! Does not compute!

Same for me. I see what you are saying, but I'm afraid it's false. May I remind, you, God is higher and His ways aren't ours...well, I think I'm done because I don't think you are going to see it....

 

[Telephone]

Hi Lilly, I hope you do not mind me repeating this question, but I am genuinely curious as to whether there may be an answer to it (?)

In the example I gave (my longer post above) what choices are available to me at the start of my life (specifically with regard to belief or non-belief).

If god already knows the inerrant outcome - what choice do I have ?

Can I 'believe' when god already knows I will not believe ?



?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Hi Lilly, I hope you do not mind me repeating this question, but I am genuinely curious as to whether there may be an answer to it (?)

In the example I gave (my longer post above) what choices are available to me at the start of my life (specifically with regard to belief or non-belief).

If god already knows the inerrant outcome - what choice do I have ?

Can I 'believe' when god already knows I will not believe ?



?

The thing is, you have the choice to believe or not believe. Everyone does, just as everyone has the choice to do rt. or wrong. See, God just knows what your choice will be, that's all. He didn't set it or determine it, He simply knows it. This is as clear as I can explain it.

 

[Telephone]

The thing is, you have the choice to believe or not believe. Everyone does, just as everyone has the choice to do rt. or wrong. See, God just knows what your choice will be, that's all. He didn't set it or determine it, He simply knows it. This is as clear as I can explain it.

Lilly, thanks for the reply.

Sorry to keep on at this question, if you are uncomfortable answering it I will understand and not ask it again.

So for the final time may I ask:

In the scenario outlined previously, what 'choice' does a person who will never believe have at the start of his life ? (a life that will play out exactly as god has alway known it will)

Can he 'believe' when god already knows he will not believe ?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would do for now !



Thanks


Telephone.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, thanks for the reply.

Sorry to keep on at this question, if you are uncomfortable answering it I will understand and not ask it again.

So for the final time may I ask:

In the scenario outlined previously, what 'choice' does a person who will never believe have at the start of his life ? (a life that will play out exactly as god has alway known it will)

Can he 'believe' when god already knows he will not believe ?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would do for now !




Thanks


Telephone.

No. (But what I said previously still applies because God merely knows the choices a person will make...they still make the choices and determine the outcome, God just knows that outcome. Why else would God discipline and etc.....and warn......if we didn't choose? So we do choose)

 

[TooCurious]

I think I'm doomed never to have my question answered.

 

[Telephone]

No.

Lilly, once again thanks for the promt reply.

So we agree that someone, who god knows in advance will never 'believe', cannot override god's foreknowledge with regard to this and 'believe' as this would negate gods omnipotence.

Fair enough, nothing logically inconsistent there.

So would you say it is reasonable of me to conclude that this hypothetical person is born without any true choice in the matter, he will never 'believe', this 'option' simply does not exist for him.

He is without choice ?

He is destined for hell on the day he is born ?

 

[JustJack!]

The thing is, you have the choice to believe or not believe. Everyone does, just as everyone has the choice to do rt. or wrong. See, God just knows what your choice will be, that's all.

But if He knows it, then it's pre-destined. Anything short would make God fallable. If my fate is known and determined before I'm even born, I have no choice.

I'ld be nothing more than an actor playing a pre-scripted role. The Truman Show. Our lives are a meaningless play.

He didn't set it or determine it, He simply knows it. This is as clear as I can explain it.

He knows it, yet He makes me anyway, knowing I'm going to Hell. Why? For what purpose? Why is your God so worked up about punishment for something that we have no control over, even if we do have free will?

As I've said before, I can't believe in Jehovah and Jesus anymore than I can believe the sky is red or 2 + 2 = 5. It just doesn't make any sence, and contrary to what the Bible claims, being illogical doesn't evidence doesn't because the Bible claims some will find it illogical. They knew it was illogical, and put that in there to mystify the sheep.

"God will confuse the wise..."

Why? Why confuse us? Confusion only sends more of us to Hell. I thought he didn't want to do that? Why not explain it real simple like so people like me could get it and not think it's a load of bunk.

"God's way aren't our ways"

Ya damn right their not. And they sure as hell aren't beneath our ways. If I, a lowly little human being can see the idiocy and flaws of certain course of action, I would certainly think God would also see those problems as well, and go about a different course of action that yeilded the fruits He desired.

If God wanted to save humanity, He certainly did a **** poor job.

I believe God to be more efficient that you claim Him to be.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

But if He knows it, then it's pre-destined. Anything short would make God fallable. If my fate is known and determined before I'm even born, I have no choice.

I'ld be nothing more than an actor playing a pre-scripted role. The Truman Show. Our lives are a meaningless play.



He knows it, yet He makes me anyway, knowing I'm going to Hell. Why? For what purpose? Why is your God so worked up about punishment for something that we have no control over, even if we do have free will?

As I've said before, I can't believe in Jehovah and Jesus anymore than I can believe the sky is red or 2 + 2 = 5. It just doesn't make any sence, and contrary to what the Bible claims, being illogical doesn't evidence doesn't because the Bible claims some will find it illogical. They knew it was illogical, and put that in there to mystify the sheep.

"God will confuse the wise..."

Why? Why confuse us? Confusion only sends more of us to Hell. I thought he didn't want to do that? Why not explain it real simple like so people like me could get it and not think it's a load of bunk.

"God's way aren't our ways"

Ya damn right their not. And they sure as hell aren't beneath our ways. If I, a lowly little human being can see the idiocy and flaws of certain course of action, I would certainly think God would also see those problems as well, and go about a different course of action that yeilded the fruits He desired.

If God wanted to save humanity, He certainly did a **** poor job.

I believe God to be more efficient that you claim Him to be.

God isn't the author of confusion. The problem is that people want to use their wisdom, their knowledge, their whatever to figure it out, rather than seek God and His. All you have to do is ask for His wisdom and believe Him and you'll get it w/ His help. Relying on your flesh to understand spirit just won't work.

Also, God doesn't create us for hell. We all have the choice to be saved, but you choose to reject God or not. God simply knows it, but we all have the option to not make bad choices and repent.....all of us.....that's the bottom line. It is ourselves that makes us lost, not God. Why do you think God warnes and disciplines and etc....us? For fun? No. Why do you think satan is working so hard to destroy humans......for fun? No. Because we all have the option to be saved.

PS: Please try not to cuss, I don't like having to read that stuff....

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, once again thanks for the promt reply.

So we agree that someone, who god knows in advance will never 'believe', cannot override god's foreknowledge with regard to this and 'believe' as this would negate gods omnipotence.

Fair enough, nothing logically inconsistent there.

So would you say it is reasonable of me to conclude that this hypothetical person is born without any true choice in the matter, he will never 'believe', this 'option' simply does not exist for him.

He is without choice ?

He is destined for hell on the day he is born ?

Once again, your view of it is incorrect. No one is destined for anything, we all have the option to serve God, but God simply knows before hand what will occur, that we will choose the option to serve Him or not....we all have the option. Saying otherwise is unbiblical and goes against God's character.

 

[icbeckyc]

Let us look at this is some detail.

"God foreknows those who are his"

I take it this means, god, being omniscient, already knows who will and who will not 'sin' and consequently who will and who will not go to 'heaven' ?

Is this correct ?

God knows that little baby George will not 'sin' and will go to heaven, he also knows that little baby Alice will 'sin' and so will go to hell ?

Ok so far so good.

Let us also remember that god cannot be wrong for he is perfect and without defect, he simply cannot make mistakes.

So therefore little baby Alice and little baby George have no choice at all in the path their lives shall take, from before she was born, little baby Alice was always going to go to hell, regardless of what she does she is hellbound, she cannot repent her sins or ask god for forgiveness as forgiveness would negate her sins and set her on a path to heaven - this would make gods foreknowledge of her going to hell incorrect, and as we know god cannot be wrong.

Gods foreknowledge negates true choice.

I just want to make one point here. God knows we will ALL sin, including baby George and including baby Alice. And he knew this before we were created. But he loved us and chose to allow us to be put on this earth. He could have said I will only allow those to live that will chose me, the rest, nope they are gone before they start.

 

[icbeckyc]

Here is my question: Instead of allowing Telephone to come into being, why does God not instead create a different person, who will believe in him and go to heaven?

I know you will not accept this as a real argument but it is the best I have for you at this time. God knows and God allows. God also has and understanding far beyond our understanding, far beyond anything we can even begin to fathom. I would have to say the would be part of being God. There are things we don't know and that is part of faith. Faith is trusting even when you aren't sure what it is. Not completely blind because there are things that I do know and understand, but there are things held for God. Until the day I am before him I will have to wait for those answers. IMHO that is why some Christians get too caught up in the end times. They are just ready for God so they can know. They forget about things will be done in His time, not mine. Like I said I know you won't take this for a real debate answer so you can just read it as my personal opinion about my faith.

 

[Telephone]

He could have said I will only allow those to live that will chose me, the rest, nope they are gone before they start.

He could also have said, I will forgive all those who sin and close the gates of hell.

 

[Telephone]

Once again, your view of it is incorrect. No one is destined for anything

Lilly, I am becoming confused by exactly what you are trying to say !


Am I right in thinking that:

A) God knows those who will lack belief or those who will 'choose' to sin.

B) This knowledge is inerrant due to gods omniscient nature.

C) This knowledge has been know by god for eternity.

D) When I was born, god already knew that I would lack belief in him.

At what point during my life can I change the path away from the one that leads to a Christian hell, the one that god knows I will choose ?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, I am becoming confused by exactly what you are trying to say !


Am I right in thinking that:

A) God knows those who will lack belief or those who will 'choose' to sin.

B) This knowledge is inerrant due to gods omniscient nature.

C) This knowledge has been know by god for eternity.

D) When I was born, god already knew that I would lack belief in him.

At what point during my life can I change the path away from the one that leads to a Christian hell, the one that god knows I will choose ?

I give up.

 

[Telephone]

I give up.

Hi Lilly, sorry if the question has made you uncomfortable in any way - I realise it may be difficult.

I ask a very simple question.

At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?

At what point can I change ?

Please help me by directly answering the question ! ?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Hi Lilly, sorry if the question has made you uncomfortable in any way - I realise it may be difficult.

I ask a very simple question.

At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?

At what point can I change ?

Please help me by directly answering the question ! ?

I've already tried explaining it and explaining it any further will probably be useless.....I'm not uncomfortable, I just give up. Sorry.

 

[Telephone]

I've already tried explaining it and explaining it any further will probably be useless.....I'm not uncomfortable, I just give up. Sorry.

I have not asked you to explain anything.

I have asked you a simple question.

"At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

Your lack of willingness to answer speaks volumes.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I have not asked you to explain anything.

I have asked you a simple question.

"At what point in my life can I change my path from an eternity in hell to an eternity in heaven, when an omniscient god has know for all eternity that I wil 'choose' hell ?"

Your lack of willingness to answer speaks volumes.

No, you already have a thing in your mind, If I just say an answer and not explain it, then you will just run w/ it.....so I'd rather not waste my time. Bye.