Accountable for our beliefs

[JustJack!]

If someone tells you something that is truth...(even if you may not believe it, but lets just go on the assumption it is indeed truth)...then are you not rejecting the very truth they claim?

Maybe. But if the "truth" you speak makes no sence, am I supposed to just ignore the inconsistancies and fallacies and trust you "because God says so", even you are God, your Bible isn't God, nor was it written by God, or translated by God, or edited by God. Those were all done by men and institutions that have done some pretty damn unGodly things.

I'm sorry, God made me skeptical.

Yes, because no one has any excuse....Plus....there are some that haven't, but there is a vast majority that has......w/ missionaries, TV, internet, and radio...etc...the amt. has greatly increased.

So there's only a few million raosting in hell simply because they weren't lucky to be chosen by God to be saved. Are you a Calvanist?

I'ld say I have pretty good excuse for not believing in Glutor from planet Zlogorlabog when I've never heard of either one of them, wouldn't you say?

Saying it's false is in and of itself false because you have no proof to say it's false.

It's not up to me to disprove your religion. Ya'll do that fine enough without my help.

Your problem is you can't back what your selling. You can't possibly prove that the real and true Creator of the universe has anything at all to do with your archaic, tribal religion.

How do you know He hasn't let you know?

How do you know He has and I'm doing just as He told me to, which isn't your way?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If you say otherwise you call God a liar and saying His Word is false is calling Him a liar as well...

I'm not calling God a liar. I don't think God had anything to do with your religion. If anyone, I'm calling you a liar, but then again, I never mentioned liars.

God wants sincerity. And that's all that'll count anyway because if you are faking, then that's pretty much lying and thus it's not real salvation anyway.

And if I sincerely can't believe in your version of God, what then? Am I screwed? Is your God void of any real mercy.

I'm not asking you to fake that you believe in God and the Bible and etc...I'm just explaining how no one has any excuse and that all are responsible for their actions.

You're right, I have no excuses. But I got some pretty damn good reasons why I don't believe. If your Bible says otherwise, then yea, it's full of bull. If your pastor says otherwise, then yea, he's lying, or maybe just ignorant. If you say otherwise, then you are a liar.

And with your religion, no one is responsible for their actions. The worst of sinners can repent and get Heaven, but people like Ghandi get to fry for no more than what name he called the Deity. Petty games that should prove to all that God has nothing to do with such barbaric beliefs.

All I have to say is.....you either believe God or not.

I believe in God. I just don't think He calls Himself Jesus, Jehovah, or Mary bo Peep.

In His word, which even in this day He uses and etc...,

You can't prove it's the word of God. It's a book. I'ld expect divine revelation to be a bit more...diviney.

He has said no one has any excuse, His attributes are clearly visible, and etc....bottom line.

He said no such thing, and yes, God's attributes are witnessable, that's why I don't think Christianity and it's God have anything to do with reality or real spirituality.

 

[happygrl35]

That's false. We choose to serve God or not or even to recieve His grace and love. That is a choice. Bottom line. Also, saying there is no choice is saying God creates people for hell on purpose, wants people to go down there and gets pleasure from it and that He purposely grieves Himself and plans/intends for us to sin and rebel against Him and etc.....all unbiblical. The Bible says and shows that we do indeed have a choice.

I think you are confusing *belief* with *faith* just believing that something is so,doesn't automatically produce faith. I didn't choose to believe that God exists and I can't choose to unbelieve. I have met atheists that think it would be nice if there were a God and an afterlife,but they just don't believe it's true.I am a universalist so I don't believe in hell in a literal sense.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Maybe. But if the "truth" you speak makes no sence, am I supposed to just ignore the inconsistancies and fallacies and trust you "because God says so", even you are God, your Bible isn't God, nor was it written by God, or translated by God, or edited by God. Those were all done by men and institutions that have done some pretty damn unGodly things.

I'm sorry, God made me skeptical.



So there's only a few million raosting in hell simply because they weren't lucky to be chosen by God to be saved. Are you a Calvanist?

I'ld say I have pretty good excuse for not believing in Glutor from planet Zlogorlabog when I've never heard of either one of them, wouldn't you say?



It's not up to me to disprove your religion. Ya'll do that fine enough without my help.

Your problem is you can't back what your selling. You can't possibly prove that the real and true Creator of the universe has anything at all to do with your archaic, tribal religion.



How do you know He has and I'm doing just as He told me to, which isn't your way?



I'm not calling God a liar. I don't think God had anything to do with your religion. If anyone, I'm calling you a liar, but then again, I never mentioned liars.



And if I sincerely can't believe in your version of God, what then? Am I screwed? Is your God void of any real mercy.



You're right, I have no excuses. But I got some pretty damn good reasons why I don't believe. If your Bible says otherwise, then yea, it's full of bull. If your pastor says otherwise, then yea, he's lying, or maybe just ignorant. If you say otherwise, then you are a liar.

And with your religion, no one is responsible for their actions. The worst of sinners can repent and get Heaven, but people like Ghandi get to fry for no more than what name he called the Deity. Petty games that should prove to all that God has nothing to do with such barbaric beliefs.



I believe in God. I just don't think He calls Himself Jesus, Jehovah, or Mary bo Peep.



You can't prove it's the word of God. It's a book. I'ld expect divine revelation to be a bit more...diviney.



He said no such thing, and yes, God's attributes are witnessable, that's why I don't think Christianity and it's God have anything to do with reality or real spirituality.

I'm not God ....I simply go by Him. The Bible is inspired by Him and is His word.....HE says it is in this time and age even and it even comes to pass.....it is indeed truth. And...God didn't make you skeptical.....claiming such is claiming that God makes you sin, because unbelief is sin.

No I'm not. The fact is God wants everyone to be saved, that's even in the Bible.......so saying that God doesn't want all saved is false. God foreknows those who are His...but we still decide of our own choice to serve Him or not. If that wasn't the case then no one would be unsaved because God clearly said He wants all saved. The fact that there are going to be folks that never accept Him tells you it is man's choice, not God's that makes us lost.

No...it has been shown, folks simply won't believe it.

Because I know God personally and God doesn't go against Himself.

Yes.

If you call me a liar....then you are in reality calling God that, not me, because I'm going by HIM in the first place and what He has revealed and said...

God said He uses the weak and etc....things of the world to confound the wise....... .....plus God speaks in many ways....you limit Him by expecting only one or two out of the millions He uses.

 

[JustJack!]

I'm not God ....I simply go by Him. The Bible is inspired by Him and is His word.....HE says it is in this time and age even and it even comes to pass.....it is indeed truth. And...God didn't make you skeptical.....claiming such is claiming that God makes you sin, because unbelief is sin.

Someone with no skeptisicm is an idiot because they fall for the first convincing load of bull they come across.

I know the moment someone tries to tell me how bad skepticism, that they are void of any truth because they are easily manipulated.

No I'm not. The fact is God wants everyone to be saved, that's even in the Bible.......so saying that God doesn't want all saved is false. God foreknows those who are His...but we still decide of our own choice to serve Him or not. If that wasn't the case then no one would be unsaved because God clearly said He wants all saved. The fact that there are going to be folks that never accept Him tells you it is man's choice, not God's that makes us lost.

So, God knows what choice we make, yet he creates us anyway, knowing we're destined for Hell. That's Calvinism.

You say your God wants all to be saved, yet knowingly create humans who are destined to hell before they're even born, yet denies from these people the very thing they need to accept Him.

And then you tell me that this is all "Truth" and evidence by the fact that you religion makes no bleeding sence is ripe with contradiction and the general "***?!" rational the divine, omni-max God uses to go about destroying things, then saving them, then really destroying them, and then just kinda poking them and then giving them a big bear hug.

Geez, Paris Hilton has better sence then you God demonstrates.

No...it has been shown, folks simply won't believe it.

No, it hasn't been shown. You want to ignore that fact, go right on ahead. But for you to tell me it has when I know it hasn't, that definitely makes you a liar.

Because I know God personally and God doesn't go against Himself.

So did Manson.

See, this is where that whole 'skepticism' thing comes into play. If I didn't have skeptisicm, I might believe that a 17yo girl has a personal relationship with the Divine, just like those nice, young, hippie, free love kid made swiss cheese out of that really nice pregnant lady, cuz they were idiots who didn't have any skepticism and though Jesus had come back to have them stab pregnant ladies to start a big war with the darkies.

Yes.

If you call me a liar....then you are in reality calling God that, not me, because I'm going by HIM in the first place and what He has revealed and said...

Says a 17yo girl who doesn't understand why her religion doesn't make a lick of sence to me.

God said He uses the weak and etc....things of the world to confound the wise.......

You're not confusing me, but your unwillingness to examine the flaws of your own beliefs disturbs me a tab bit.

.....plus God speaks in many ways....you limit Him by expecting only one or two out of the millions He uses.

You limit Him to a book.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Someone with no skeptisicm is an idiot because they fall for the first convincing load of bull they come across.

I know the moment someone tries to tell me how bad skepticism, that they are void of any truth because they are easily manipulated.



So, God knows what choice we make, yet he creates us anyway, knowing we're destined for Hell. That's Calvinism.

You say your God wants all to be saved, yet knowingly create humans who are destined to hell before they're even born, yet denies from these people the very thing they need to accept Him.

And then you tell me that this is all "Truth" and evidence by the fact that you religion makes no bleeding sence is ripe with contradiction and the general "***?!" rational the divine, omni-max God uses to go about destroying things, then saving them, then really destroying them, and then just kinda poking them and then giving them a big bear hug.

Geez, Paris Hilton has better sence then you God demonstrates.



No, it hasn't been shown. You want to ignore that fact, go right on ahead. But for you to tell me it has when I know it hasn't, that definitely makes you a liar.



So did Manson.

See, this is where that whole 'skepticism' thing comes into play. If I didn't have skeptisicm, I might believe that a 17yo girl has a personal relationship with the Divine, just like those nice, young, hippie, free love kid made swiss cheese out of that really nice pregnant lady, cuz they were idiots who didn't have any skepticism and though Jesus had come back to have them stab pregnant ladies to start a big war with the darkies.



Says a 17yo girl who doesn't understand why her religion doesn't make a lick of sence to me.



You're not confusing me, but your unwillingness to examine the flaws of your own beliefs disturbs me a tab bit.



You limit Him to a book.

I understand why religion doesn't make sense to you or other unsaved folks...you are spiritually blind. Flesh can't get spirit, only spirit gets spirt. No one can understand the Spirit of God but the Spirit of God, just as flesh can only understand flesh. It's that simple.

Well, I'm not calvanist. Perhaps you should look up what other christians sects believe and you can see that they also believe similar. The fact is...everyone has the opp. to get saved and serve God...forgiveness is open to all....that's the bottom line. The choice is yours. God doesn't deny us of anything in order to get saved. If anything, you deny yourself due to your own unbelief/doubt and unwillingness to believe.

I'm not blind to what folks say are "errors" in the christian faith. I could care less. The very folks that say this don't serve God anyway and if they did, they no longer do...so I choose to believe God over man anyday and I could careless what folks think of that because God's opinion is what matters, man's is meaningless in the end.

 

[Telephone]

God foreknows those who are His...but we still decide of our own choice to serve Him or not.

Let us look at this is some detail.

"God foreknows those who are his"

I take it this means, god, being omniscient, already knows who will and who will not 'sin' and consequently who will and who will not go to 'heaven' ?

Is this correct ?

God knows that little baby George will not 'sin' and will go to heaven, he also knows that little baby Alice will 'sin' and so will go to hell ?

Ok so far so good.

Let us also remember that god cannot be wrong for he is perfect and without defect, he simply cannot make mistakes.

So therefore little baby Alice and little baby George have no choice at all in the path their lives shall take, from before she was born, little baby Alice was always going to go to hell, regardless of what she does she is hellbound, she cannot repent her sins or ask god for forgiveness as forgiveness would negate her sins and set her on a path to heaven - this would make gods foreknowledge of her going to hell incorrect, and as we know god cannot be wrong.

Gods foreknowledge negates true choice.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Let us look at this is some detail.

"God foreknows those who are his"

I take it this means, god, being omniscient, already knows who will and who will not 'sin' and consequently who will and who will not go to 'heaven' ?

Is this correct ?

God knows that little baby George will not 'sin' and will go to heaven, he also knows that little baby Alice will 'sin' and so will go to hell ?

Ok so far so good.

Let us also remember that god cannot be wrong for he is perfect and without defect, he simply cannot make mistakes.

So therefore little baby Alice and little baby George have no choice at all in the path their lives shall take, from before she was born, little baby Alice was always going to go to hell, regardless of what she does she is hellbound, she cannot repent her sins or ask god for forgiveness as forgiveness would negate her sins and set her on a path to heaven - this would make gods foreknowledge of her going to hell incorrect, and as we know god cannot be wrong.

Gods foreknowledge negates true choice.

People going in hell as judgement isn't a mistake. But that doesn't mean God wants it. Plain and simple. You either believe God or not.

 

[Telephone]

People going in hell as judgement isn't a mistake. But that doesn't mean God wants it. Plain and simple. You either believe God or not.

Hi Lilly,

You misunderstand me.

I have made no comment on 'hell as judgement' being a mistake or not.

Nor have I commented on what god does or does not want.

I have simply said that if an omniscient god knows the outcome of each and everyones lives before their proud parents have even named them, as you have suggested with the notion: "God foreknows those who are his" then to change this path through life and alter the outcome would render gods foreknowledge a 'mistake'.

Now I believe the Christian notion of 'god' says that god cannot make a mistake, therefore my hypothetical little baby 'Alice' and little baby 'George' cannot change their paths through life.

If god knows baby Alice is bound for hell, she is bound for hell from before she was even born and nothing she does will change that.

My thoughts with regard to these points are that the foreknowledge of an omniscient, omnipotent god negates choice for his creations.

Can we at least agree that my hyoptetical 'little baby Alice' has no choice in the fact that she is bound for hell ?



Your final comment of "You either believe God or not." is something we can agree on.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Hi Lilly,

You misunderstand me.

I have made no comment on 'hell as judgement' being a mistake or not.

Nor have I commented on what god does or does not want.

I have simply said that if an omniscient god knows the outcome of each and everyones lives before their proud parents have even named them, as you have suggested with the notion: "God foreknows those who are his" then to change this path through life and alter the outcome would render gods foreknowledge a 'mistake'.

Now I believe the Christian notion of 'god' says that god cannot make a mistake, therefore my hypothetical little baby 'Alice' and little baby 'George' cannot change their paths through life.

If god knows baby Alice is bound for hell, she is bound for hell from before she was even born and nothing she does will change that.

My thoughts with regard to these points are that the foreknowledge of an omniscient, omnipotent god negates choice for his creations.

Can we at least agree that my hyoptetical 'little baby Alice' has no choice in the fact that she is bound for hell ?



Your final comment of "You either believe God or not." is something we can agree on.

Yes, and he simply knows it.....he knows what will happen, but in that we choose...he simply knows our choice. It's that simple. I can't explain it any more simple than this. The problem is you are viewing it as predecided when it's simply preknown. Yes, what will happen will happen, but we choose it, it's not out of our control....God just knows the outcome....that's all.

 

[JustJack!]

I other words, an I think this is an excellent example of the theological conflicts of a belief not well though-out, if God knows before we're born our ultimate fate, then if we choose against that fate, then God isn't all-knowing. God made a mistake. Thus, there is no free will.

That's what I'm saying, you're giving us Calvanist theology. And I know more than you think about various beliefs. I've been doing this a bit longer than you, ok.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I other words, an I think this is an excellent example of the theological conflicts of a belief not well though-out, if God knows before we're born our ultimate fate, then if we choose against that fate, then God isn't all-knowing. God made a mistake. Thus, there is no free will.

That's what I'm saying, you're giving us Calvanist theology. And I know more than you think about various beliefs. I've been doing this a bit longer than you, ok.

What God knows will happen will happen. I'm not saying it won't. I am saying that you decide and choose that and you have choices to go other ways, but God simply knows what you'll do, that doesn't mean you didn't choose it willfully.

Well...I'm not calvanist nor is any church I've been to and they believe the same....it may be similar to calvanist, that doesn't mean I am one. Many christian sects have similar beliefs but differ on different things, thus making them different.

 

[JustJack!]

Yes, and he simply knows it.....he knows what will happen, but in that we choose...he simply knows our choice. It's that simple. I can't explain it any more simple than this. The problem is you are viewing it as predecided when it's simply preknown. Yes, what will happen will happen, but we choose it, it's not out of our control....God just knows the outcome....that's all.

And when do we make this "choice", if the choice is known by God before we're born? And what if we choose counter to God's foreknowledge, thus making him wrong?

Do we have free will of not?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

And when do we make this "choice", if the choice is known by God before we're born? And what if we choose counter to God's foreknowledge, thus making him wrong?

Do we have free will of not?

He knows everything all the time. We do have free will. Saying we don't is saying that God wants folks to go to hell on purpose and wants people to be lost and not saved, and that's not His character and unscriptural.

 

[Telephone]

Yes, what will happen will happen, but we choose it, it's not out of our control....God just knows the outcome....that's all.

Hi Lilly,


Let us suppose my life is to be played out thus:

I will be born, I will grow up and exercise critical thinking, I will find the beliefs and views of Muslims, Jews, Calvinists, Christians and Hellenists unconvincing as a valid representation of reality.

This lack of belief will lead me to an eternity in pain, burning in the ovens of hell.

Let us say that is my life, that is how it is going to be played out.

Now god knows this is how my life is going to be played out, he knows I will make the unforgivable error of never believing in him or in Allah or in Zeus or in Ganesh (or which ever notion of a supreme being you have been brought up with).

Ok so far ?

So lets rewind a few years, it is the day before I am born, god at this point knows I am going to live a life that includes finding the ideas that surround religion to be essentially intellectual dishonesty and wishful thinking masquerading as virture. He knows I will never think the ideas of Christianty make any kind of sense so they will be rejected and I will go to hell.

Then all of a sudden something wondeful happens.

POP!

I am born (thanks mum!)

Now at this point in my life, day one, can you possibly point out what my options are?

Can I be 'saved' ?

Impossible, for this to happen would negate gods omnipotence.

My path is pre-known, it cannot be wrong for this pre-knowledge is gods pre-knowledge.

I cannot stay from this path, I am without choice, all the 'mistakes' I make will be made, all the 'sins' I commit will be commited, I will have a kind of ostensible choice in the respect that I can choose those things that I was always going to choose, those things god knows in advance I will choose and then, just like god has know for all eternity, I will have the flesh burnt from my bones in hell.

I am headed for hell the moment my joyous mother sets eyes on me.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

As I said....God simply knows....you still choose it.....that's all I will say w/ it because folks just aren't seeing it.

 

[Telephone]

He knows everything all the time. We do have free will. Saying we don't is saying that God wants folks to go to hell on purpose and wants people to be lost and not saved, and that's not His character and unscriptural.

Here is a possible solution to the 'hell' problem.

Firstly god closes hell down and those who have sinned or do not believe are forgiven. Problem solved.

Or this:

God makes it that man exists in an environment without sin but still retains free will - like it is said to be in heaven.



Any objections ? Any issues that would make either of these proposals untenable ?

If any Christian here thinks these are good ideas please forward them to god with whatever telepathy system you use during prayer.

 

[Telephone]

As I said....God simply knows....you still choose it.....that's all I will say w/ it because folks just aren't seeing it.

Hi Lilly,

In the example I gave (my longer post above) what choices are available to me at the start of my life (specifically with regard to belief or non-belief).

If god already knows the inerrant outcome - what choice do I have ?

My choices must follow what he already knows. I cannot choose any differently.

 

[JustJack!]

He knows everything all the time. We do have free will. Saying we don't is saying that God wants folks to go to hell on purpose and wants people to be lost and not saved, and that's not His character and unscriptural.

You can't have it both ways. It's a contradiction. Either we have free will and God doesn't have foreknowledge of our fates, or God knows our fates and we have no will.

Why don't you understand this?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You can't have it both ways. It's a contradiction. Either we have free will and God doesn't have foreknowledge of our fates, or we God knows our fates and we have no will.

Why don't you understand this?

I understand very well what you all are saying. I'm not blind, but the thing is it's false. We choose and God just knows that choice. You folks aren't seeing what I'm saying, which I guess is understandable, but it's frustrating because you aren't seeing what I'm trying to say.

 

[TooCurious]

Hi Lilly,


Let us suppose my life is to be played out thus:

I will be born, I will grow up and exercise critical thinking, I will find the beliefs and views of Muslims, Jews, Calvinists, Christians and Hellenists unconvincing as a valid representation of reality.

This lack of belief will lead me to an eternity in pain, burning in the ovens of hell.

Let us say that is my life, that is how it is going to be played out.

Now god knows this is how my life is going to be played out, he knows I will make the unforgivable error of never believing in him or in Allah or in Zeus or in Ganesh (or which ever notion of a supreme being you have been brought up with).

Ok so far ?

So lets rewind a few years, it is the day before I am born, god at this point knows I am going to live a life that includes finding the ideas that surround religion to be essentially intellectual dishonesty and wishful thinking masquerading as virture. He knows I will never think the ideas of Christianty make any kind of sense so they will be rejected and I will go to hell.

Then all of a sudden something wondeful happens.

POP!

I am born (thanks mum!)

Now at this point in my life, day one, can you possibly point out what my options are?

Can I be 'saved' ?

Impossible, for this to happen would negate gods omnipotence.

My path is pre-known, it cannot be wrong for this pre-knowledge is gods pre-knowledge.

I cannot stay from this path, I am without choice, all the 'mistakes' I make will be made, all the 'sins' I commit will be commited, I will have a kind of ostensible choice in the respect that I can choose those things that I was always going to choose, those things god knows in advance I will choose and then, just like god has know for all eternity, I will have the flesh burnt from my bones in hell.

I am headed for hell the moment my joyous mother sets eyes on me.

I think that's a really good point, Telephone. I hope you won't mind if I build on it, in order to ask a question that's been nagging at me for a while?

Let's say that Telephone's life will play out as he has described it, and that God knows this. Telephone has not yet been born. Let's say that it's the day before Telephone is to be conceived.

Here is my question: Instead of allowing Telephone to come into being, why does God not instead create a different person, who will believe in him and go to heaven?