Absolutely Free or Not?

JustinWindsor · Oct 19, 2005

a wealth of Scriptural evidence presented, mjacvols and holden refuse the truth.

Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5

mlqurgw · Oct 19, 2005

Are you a member of the International Church of Christ?

I suspect they are Pentacostal.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
Christ made the promise to the thief while both were alive and under the OT law. The baptism of Acts 2:38 was not yet in effect while the thief was alive, it did not come into effect until a few weeks later after the thief had died.

Funny, that is exactly the response I would expect from a member of the International Church of Christ.

jmacvols said:
No.

What church denomination do you belong to?

jmacvols said:
Paul plainly told the Ephesians they could understand when they read. You have not explained all the contradictions among those that claim they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit.

Paul is talking to those who profess faith.

You keep getting the cart before the horse.

Scripture teaches clearly that the natural man can read and hear all there is to be read and heard and will not understand because they are spiritually discerned.
So then, what they read is not one of the "things of the Spirit of God."

Gee, I'm glad you are here to correct Scripture. I don't know how God has made it this long without you here to correct His Word.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
I suspect they are Pentacostal.

Could be of the hyper-holiness variety.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
All the apostles were chosen by the Lord, but certain individuals are not chosen to be Christians, one has to choose for himself to be a Christian or not.

Then that makes God a "respector of persons".

You dig faster and deeper than a steam shovel.

jmacvols · Oct 19, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
You have been given the reason, many times over, "to the Glory of His Grace", but you reject it in favor of heretical, man-made philosophy.

The bible makes it it clear that it is obedience.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
God is not obligated to give you or me all the details.

I gave the reason, your above quote is an excuse Calvinist use to not answer questions they are unable to.

Augustine_was_calvinist said:
No you are not conforming to God's Will, you reject the clear Gospel, which is to be at emnity with God.

I am the one saying we should be obedient, you are saying we should do nothing. Now who is the one not conforming?

AUGUSTINE-Was_Calviist said:
Please do not misrepresent Calvinism again. Calvinists do not say man is to do nothing. Calvinists agree with Scripture in that man has no part in his own salvation, it is purely and solely the work of God.
After regeneration then the saved does something, not before.

The flip-flopping is getting out of control. One one hand, your side says salvation is all purely and solely the work God, that man is to depraved to do anything. No you say man is to do something. Jesus plainly teaches that man is to do something before salvation, Mk 16:16.

Augustine_was_calvinist said:

Not according to Scripture. The natural man finds the Gospel to be utter foolisness(1 Corinthians 2).

Click to expand...

One more time, God can be understood by revelation of the Holy Spirit. The apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit and could understand those revelations. The apostles wrote them down so man can understand, that is why Paul told the Ephesians -when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. The gospel was understandable to the Ephesians, not foolish. If it is foolishness, then how can you understand it and explain it to someone else?

mlqurgw · Oct 19, 2005

Paul plainly told the Ephesians they could understand when they read. You have not explained all the contradictions among those that claim they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit

Click to expand...

. How then did the Pharasee's miss Christ? They had the Scriptures. They knew them well, probably better than you or I. They missed Him because they had only a literal interpretation.

mlqurgw · Oct 19, 2005

Areou going to respond to the passages I gave you?

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
Heresy is never an intelectual matter. It is refusal to submit to the Word of God.

I agree. It's a condition of the heart, one that reveals a rebelliousness against the Gospel.

They are as bad as the judaizers adding to the Gospel conditions that are not there.

I can imagine them standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ and crying out;

"Lord, Lord, didn't you see how obedient we were? Didn't you see that we made sure to preach salvation comes only after baptism? Didn't you see that we were good enough to choose you even though dead and blind and while in our natural state could not understand the Gospel?"

You already know Jesus's reply.

jmacvols · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
Heresy is never an intelectual matter. It is refusal to submit to the Word of God.

How can man submit to the word of God if salvation is all God's work and man is too totally depraved to do anything?

mlqurgw · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
How can man submit to the word of God if salvation is all God's work and man is too totally depraved to do anything?

I hope that isn't the best answer you can give. I am truly disappointed.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
One more time, God can be understood by revelation of the Holy Spirit. foolishness, then how can you understand it and explain it to someone else?

One more time, 1 Corinthians 2 is plain as the sun in the sky, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

So, you want us to believe that Scripture contradicts itself?

Apparently you do.

In your mind, due to a terrible misunderstanding of the Scriptures, trying to twist them to conform to your philosophical liking, the natural man, whom Scripture says cannot understand the things of the Spirit, does indeed understand the revelation of the Spirit.

In that twisted contruct, the revelation of the Spirit is not a "thing of the Spirit", which makes about as much sense as 2+2=693,094,243, which is to say it is utter nonsense.

2 Peter 3, prophecied of those who twist the Scriptures like that:

15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvationas also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

You have been given the reason, many times over, "to the Glory of His Grace", but you reject it in favor of heretical, man-made philosophy.

jmacvols said:
The bible makes it it clear that it is obedience.

No, what Scripture makes clear is that obedience follows salvation, and is not the cause of salvation.

You just don't get it. If obedience is the cause of salvation, then there was no need for Christ to suffer and die, all you would have to do is be obedient to God's commands, which is contradictory to everything Scripture teaches about salvation.

jmacvols said:
I gave the reason, your above quote is an excuse Calvinist use to not answer questions they are unable to.

Your answer of obedience is anti-Biblical, anti-Christ and anti-Christian and is anti-Gospel, making your obedience the cause of salvation based on what you do, and a debt that God owes you for your goodness.

Sorry, but your goodness is as a filthy rag in the eyes of God.

jmacvols said:
I am the one saying we should be obedient, you are saying we should do nothing. Now who is the one not conforming?

Please refrain from misrepresenting me again.

What I have said, as every other Calvinist has said, in agreement with Scripture, is that man can do nothing to effect his own regeneration and salvation, they are purely and soley the work of God by His Grace and Mercy.

After one is regenerated, saved, then he cooperates, believes and does good works as a result of regeneration, salvation.(Ephesians 2:8-10)

jmacvols said:
The flip-flopping is getting out of control. One one hand, your side says salvation is all purely and solely the work God, that man is to depraved to do anything. No you say man is to do something. Jesus plainly teaches that man is to do something before salvation, Mk 16:16.

No flip flopping on our part, but lots on your part. First you say God is no respector of persons then you demonstrate that God is in choosing the apostles and not others.

What I want you to do is to read very slowly, very carefully.

We agree with Scripture that man cannot do anything in his natural state to effect regeneration and salvation, just as Paul clearly states in 1 Cor. 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and finds it foolishness. First he must be effectually moved from the natural state to the spiritual state by the Holy Spirit, what Jesus called, "being born from above".

In the spiritual state of being born from above, the new man can then obey the command to repent and believe, not before, for before, while in the natural state,

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

holdon · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
I just did.

Where?

Where does it say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? Your claim seems to be that the righteousness of Christ's life is imputed to us. I don't see it.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
Paul plainly told the Ephesians they could understand when they read.

Paul was talking to believers about believers, those who had already been born from above, ie-regenerated.

You make the fatal flaw of not discerning the difference between the contexts.

In 1 Cor. 2, Paul is talking about those who are in the natural state who have not been regenerated(born of the Spirit), and in Ephesians Paul is addressing those who have been regenerated.

jmacvols said:
You have not explained all the contradictions among those that claim they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit.

No, we have explained your contradictions and your refusal to obey the Gospel quite well but your spiritual blindness keeps you blind.

Outrider · Oct 19, 2005

Thank you, mlqurgw, for giving holdon what he asked for:

holdon said:
Strange that nobody can give a clear Scriptural reference...

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

A clear passage on the imputation of righteousness.

jmacvols · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
In the preaching of the Gospel. I would refer you to Matt. 11:25-27

So Titus 2:11 is a lie? Nothing in Matt 11:25-27 says God's grace is withheld from anyone. "Revealed them unto babes"-babes here are the apostles that were inspired to receive revelations from the Holy Spirit. Christ was greatful God had chosen those particular men to be apostles instead of those that were arrogant, intellectual 'snobs' and prideful.

mlqurgw said:
Who isn't saved in their sins?

Absolutely no one!

mlqurgw said:
Did you get better before you belived or after?

Belief alone does not remit sins, no one after the church began in Acts 2 was told to "believe only" to be saved. The devils believe, do they feel better?

mlqurgw said:
Acts 9:6 he was told to go to the city and there it would told him what he MUST do. After three days Aninaias comes to Saul, Saul receives his sight and is baptized to wash away his sins, Acts 22:16.
He was not baptized to was h away his sins but because his sins were washed away.

The order of the verse is that baptize comes BEFORE the washing away of sins.

mlqurgw said:
He doesn't choose all to be His children because it pleased Him to leave some in their rebellion.

So God does want most to be lost. How does God chose those whom He will leave in rebellion?

mlqurgw said:
When He said Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated He didn't make a difference? It had everything to do with salvation. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with foresight but to have a special relationship with someone. Christ knew all about those who came to him and said have we not done many mighty works in thy name. But He says that He never knew them. He never had a special relationship with them.

God was not choosing which one to save, He was choosing which one to bring His people into the world by. From Mal 1:1-3 God was not referring specifically to the individuals Jacob and Esau, but the nations that came from them. God loved Israel, but Israel asked God wherein hast thou loved us. God said He loved Israel (Jacob) more than the Edomites (Esau). "Hate" can mean that He loved Israel and loved less the Edomites. Gen 29:30-33. Lk 14:26 compared to Mat 10:37.
You say "foreknowledge has nothing to do with foresight." Where did you get this "definition"? If foreknowledge has nothing to do with foresight, then how did God know to tell Rebekah, before the twins were born, that within her was two nations, two manner of people, one is stronger than the other and the elder would serve the younger, Gen 25:23?

mlqurgw said:
If God gives grace to all men then all will be saved. Grace comes only in Christ and if all men have Christ then all are saved.

His grace has been extended to all men, but most will reject it.

jmacvols · Oct 19, 2005

mlqurgw said:
I suspect they are Pentacostal.

I am a member of the church of Christ.

holdon · Oct 19, 2005

Outrider said:
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

A clear passage on the imputation of righteousness.

Well it still doesn't say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
A. it doesn't say anything about Christ's righteousness.
B. it doesn't say anything about imputing.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 19, 2005

jmacvols said:
I am a member of the church of Christ.

Thought so.

Absolutely Free or Not?

Eternal life: Free or costly?

Absolutely Free: No provisos, caveats, strings attached. Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Costly: One must commit, surrender, die to self, be obedient, and persevere till the end.

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