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Your cart is before your horse. Judgment takes place in the end, not in the beginning. All disobedience and obedience has been done. Those he judges according to their thoughts, words and deeds will enter life everlasting and will not be condemned forever or will be assigned to his eternal wrath where there is no hope forever.jmacvols said:So God can judge one to be obedient and then condemn that person? Heb 5:9?
Before I said God has all sovereignty, but his sovereignty is limited by His holy nature. His holy nature will not allow God to lie. God has promised salvation to the obedient and condemnation to the disobedient. These are promises God cannot break, if He does, He lies. When God acts or makes a choice, His act or choice has to fall within the boundaries of His holy nature. So when it comes judgment day, the obedient will HAVE to be saved and the disobedient condemned, or else God lies.No. Come judgment day, the obedient will have been saved. That is why they were obedient. Your view completely dismisses all of the Scripture that deals with union with Christ being the basis of the righteousness of the believer. Obedience, and all fruit of repentence is the outworking of the grace of Christ. Come judgment day, God will see in his people the outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives because they have been redeemed. Then, he will judge them according to the obedience that is from Christ.
What God has made known in the Bible we may know, indeed. But I fail to find any passage of Scripture that tells why one particular person goes to hell while another goes to heaven. There is nothing I see in Scripture about there being two species of human beings, one absolutely depraved while the other still has some facility for choosing God. In trying to escape descriminatio, it seems to me that you have created one in which the Fall is selective about who will be saved and who will not. Why are some able to be obedient and others are not? Why are some able to be willing and others are not? Is there something uneven about the condition of human guilt and if so, what does the Bible reveal about that?God has made it known in the bible, He would not leave us in the dark about salvation. How do you know that faith saves? From the bible? a guess?
Outrider said:Your cart is before your horse. Judgment takes place in the end, not in the beginning. All disobedience and obedience has been done. Those he judges according to their thoughts, words and deeds will enter life everlasting and will not be condemned forever or will be assigned to his eternal wrath where there is no hope forever.
Outrider said:No. Come judgment day, the obedient will have been saved. That is why they were obedient. Your view completely dismisses all of the Scripture that deals with union with Christ being the basis of the righteousness of the believer. Obedience, and all fruit of repentence is the outworking of the grace of Christ. Come judgment day, God will see in his people the outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives because they have been redeemed. Then, he will judge them according to the obedience that is from Christ.
Outrider said:What God has made known in the Bible we may know, indeed. But I fail to find any passage of Scripture that tells why one particular person goes to hell while another goes to heaven.
Outrider said:There is nothing I see in Scripture about there being two species of human beings, one absolutely depraved while the other still has some facility for choosing God. In trying to escape descriminatio, it seems to me that you have created one in which the Fall is selective about who will be saved and who will not.
Outrider said:Why are some able to be obedient and others are not? Why are some able to be willing and others are not? Is there something uneven about the condition of human guilt and if so, what does the Bible reveal about that?
jmacvols said:Acts 1:24--All the apostles were chosen, throwing the lots allowed them to know who was already chosen. There was no randomness as to whom would be the next apostle, as there is no random choice by God as to whom will be saved or lost. So yes God would "control the coin", because He has a reason for His choices about salvation. (its obedience)
jmacvols said:... No one is born totally depraved. ..Free-will...
But since the assurance of salvation rests on whether God chose you, you'd better tell us from Scripture how one can know that God chose him or not.Outrider said:The Bible speaks to where we gain assurance of salvation.
JustinWindsor said:Paul was a chosen apostle of God
JustinWindsor said:and rest assured he did not earn that choice from his obedience.
JustinWindsor said:It was God's sovereign choice. God took Paul from being a hater of Christians and the message of the cross to one of its greatest proponents. God did it. God is the hero. Not Paul.
JustinWindsor said:There has been Scripture shared in this thread which proves absolute depravity of mankind and there has been Scripture shared in this thread which absolutely proves God's sovereign election.
What on earth are you going to do with those Scriptures. Just ignore them for the rest of your life?
JustinWindsor said:There is a huge problem with "free-will" philosophy which I just can't get past. Ultimately everyone who tries to explain it to me;
1. Can't satisfy me with regard to the Scriptures which show God's Sovereign Election, and
2. Rest their case of "prevenient grace", which they have been unable to demonstrate to me in Scripture.
A theology bankrupt of Scripture, or that leaves other Scripture unresolved, is in error, and is therefore the philosophy of man.
If the "free-will" supporters would care to demonstrate prevenient grace as a genuine Apostolic principle, and give a sensible and God inspired interpretation of the Scriptures explaining away God's election, then I will be happy to read it.
JustimWindsor said:Oh, and by the way, foreknowledge does not mean God foreknowing what we would choose from our free will. That is a horribly wrong concept and ignores the Apostle's explanation in Romans 9 and many other Scriptures which have been shared on this thread.
jmacvols said:You can't have it both ways. You say if one is 'elect' he is saved and cannot be lost. This would be salvation. This is not UNTO salvation but this is guaranteed salvation, if the 'elect' is saved and cannot be lost.
Now you say forced obedience is not involved. In post #73 you say "IF God cannot ensure that His elect do, in fact, come to salvation (because He is the one who brings them there), then God is not Omnipotent. Certainly you don't believe that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses?" In post # 69 you say "At the appointed time by God (yes, He excercises absolute control over all the affairs of men) the Elect are brought to a saving knowledge of Christ, via regeneration...." then you say "not by force of coercion, but by free choice of the newly born, newly freed from sin...."
On one hand you question God's omnipotence if God cannot ensure His 'elect' comes to salvation, and that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses, that God exercises absolute control over men. This then is God ensuring--forcing--the elect to obey, for if the elect do not obey, that means God has failed to bring to pass what He chooses, that He does not have absolute control over men.
Then you say not by force, but free choice. If the 'elect' have free choice, then the 'elect' may very well choose not to obey. And if the 'elect' chooses not to obey then God steps in and ensures ie forces them to obey? Also, if the 'elect' has free choice, then Hitler and Stalin can be part of the 'elect' and use their free choice not to obey God.
You analogy to try and wiggle out of the situation you've created fails.
(1)If one can freely reject the cure, then he can freely reject Gods omnipotence to 'ensure' his obedience and hence be a "saved disobedient elected one".
(2)You also say one can refuse the cure and die, but you have said the 'elect' cannot be lost (die), hence if the 'elect' reject the cure (God's 'ensuring' their obedience), then they will still live (be saved).
I never said that righteousness is by my own works. I have said over and over and over obedient to the works God gave man to do--believe, repent, confess, baptism. When one 'believes' he is doing a obedient work God gave him to do, not a work of his own. You misunderstand the difference between obedient works and meritorious works.
Nice deflection attempt, but from the tone of your above quote, they seem to hit a soft spot. No verses to back up your ideas?
Not my opinion, but God wil judge all men with the same basis---obedience.
The proof is in the scriptures, no where does the bible say God elected certain individuals to be saved and all else will be lost. No where does the bible say after the church began in Acts 2 that salvation is by 'faith alone". No where does the bible say man is totally depraved that he can do nothing about his own salvation. More?
Where does it say anything about "enabling to believe?Outrider said:God's enabling grace:
Romans 15:13 (ESV)
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. Romans 5:2-6 (ESV)
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [3] More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [4] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [5] and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
[6] For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?The imputation of Christ's righteousness: Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
jmacvols said:There have been scriptures that have been brought forth that someone 'thought' total depravity was in the verses or someone added or assumed totally depravity was in the verses.
God's grace has been extended to all men, then it would make sense that all men will be saved. But most will be lost. Why? is God's grace not strong enough?
What in Rom 9 prevents God from using his foreknowledge about Jacob and Esau?
holdon said:Where does it say anything about "enabling to believe?Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?
You have not demonstrated anything...
holdon said:Where does it say Christ's righteousness is imputed to us?
nobdysfool said:I hope for your sake that this was a rhetorical question, because if it's not, you are questioning one of the bedrock doctrines of the faith. Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to Believers is a core doctrine of the Church. If you deny that, you can rightly be charged with heresy.
Please clear this up for us.
holdon said:I am questioning it. Please answer the question.
JustinWindsor said:...shows just some of the Scriptural basis for the imputation of Christ's righteousness upon believers. If you don't believe this basic Christian Doctrine, what on earth are you doing wasting our time in a Christian forum? If you aren't clothed in the righteousness of Christ, what is the basis of your salvation? Your own righteousness?
JustinWindsor said:Christ's righteousness credited;
Romans 4:3-5,13 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Phil 3:8,9 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "A[size=-2]ND[/size] A[size=-2]BRAHAM BELIEVED[/size] G[size=-2]OD[/size], [size=-2]AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS[/size]," and he was called the friend of God.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Hope this helps.
JustinWindsor said:Here it is again, for your convenience;
Perhaps you should have added;JustinWindsor said:Here it is again, for your convenience;
holdon said:Why don't you answer the question? Maybe you can't find a verse that says that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us? I can't either.
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