Abraham was justified in Genesis TWELVE.

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
I understand that subjectively, you can't; it doesn't fit the mold of Catholicism or many of the reform positions that denounce the pentecostal experience in meaning anything other than for salvation, i.e., coming upon and indwelling to be the same in meaning.

I dont follow. Are you saying a "real Christian" has to undergo what the Apostles underwent at Pentecost (speaking in tongues?)? Paul is very clear in, I think 1 Cor 12, that not everyone receives the same gifts by the Spirit. The concept of the Holy Spirit Indwelling however is a truth all Christians partake in (Rom 5:5; 1 Cor 3:16f).

A "real Christian" should seek after it by seeking the Baptiser.. Paul says as much. "Desire more earnestly the best gifts".

It is elective as compared to the compulsory fruit of the spirit. Look at Pentecost as the unction to function.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Since my last thread went so off track without really discussing the main issue I decided to repost my main argument again and hopefully people will stay on topic.


The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Gospel, had faith, and was justified as early as Genesis 12. Reading Gn 12 alone is sufficient proof Abraham was a believer in God and obeyed him, though further evidence like Gal 3:8 and Heb 11:8 drive the point home (those verses reference Gen 12).

Given that Protestants believe that Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4:3), and that they believe justification is by imputation as a one time legal decree means there is a problem here. Abraham cannot have been justified at two different times if the above definition/understanding holds. This is precisely why Protestants say James 2:21 (Gen 22) cannot be using "justification" in the same sense as St Paul in Rom 4:3.

The only way around this "problem" is to realize that the Protestant understanding of justification is incorrect, while the Catholic understanding is orthodox.

I believe the Catholic argument here is so strong that it is the decisive "silver bullet" on the issue of Justification by Faith Alone. Faith Alone was the doctrine by which the Reformation stood or fell, if it was wrong the Reformation was wrong.


A lot of this debate hinges on what Gen 15:6 means, especially the phrase "credited as righteousness". This phrase is unique and only appears one other time, Ps 106:30-31.

Very good point. I have known about this for quite a while, but didn't have the gumption to type it all out. We can agree that Romans 4:3 demonstrates Abraham to have been justified through the gift of faith he received from God. The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," referencing Genesis 15:6.

There is more to this text, however, than many of our non-Catholic friends know. While the Catholic Church agrees that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said, we also note that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well, indicating justification to have another aspect to it. Again, there is a sense in which justification is a past action in the life of believers, but there is another sense in which justification is revealed to be a process as well.

Abraham was depicted as having saving faith in God long before Genesis 15:6. Abraham had already responded to God’s call in Genesis 12 with what is revealed to be saving faith, years before his encounter with the Lord in Genesis 15. In addition, Abraham is revealed to have been justified again in Genesis 22, years after Genesis 15, when he offered his son Isaac in sacrifice in obedience to the Lord.

Genesis 12:14: Now the Lord said to Abraham, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you…" So Abram went, as the Lord had told him. Compare Hebrews 11:6,8: And without faith it is impossible to please God… By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called… and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Genesis 15:4,6: "This man [a slave] shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." And [Abram] believed the Lord: and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. Compare Romans 4:3: For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Genesis 22:15-17: And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendents as the stars of heaven… because you have obeyed my voice." Compare James 2:21-22,24: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?… faith was completed by works… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Bible tells us Abraham had faith way back in Genesis 12. And according to Hebrews 11:6-8, this was not a natural faith analogous to the faith the demons have (see James 2:19), but rather a supernatural and saving faith given as a gift from God. If Abraham was not justified until Genesis 15:6, how could he already have saving faith in Genesis 12? In addition, if Abraham was justified once and for all in Genesis 15:6, why did he need to be justified again in Genesis 22 according to James 2:21? The reason is simple: According to these texts, justification is revealed in Scripture to be a process rather than a mere one-time event.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

You mean one has to make up for what you lack?

God give all spiritual blessing that a human lacks in their position in Christ

do you know how to recieve that grace?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

You mean one has to make up for what you lack?

A "real Christian" should seek after it by seeking the Baptiser.. Paul says as much. "Desire more earnestly the best gifts".

It is elective as compared to the compulsory fruit of the spirit. Look at Pentecost as the unction to function.

their is 12 gifts given to the church ... desire your gift

each christian recieves one gift thus the reason for christians to have unity of spirit so that they can love one another

 

[Catholic Dude]

Very good point. I have known about this for quite a while, but didn't have the gumption to type it all out. We can agree that Romans 4:3 demonstrates Abraham to have been justified through the gift of faith he received from God. The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," referencing Genesis 15:6.

There is more to this text, however, than many of our non-Catholic friends know. While the Catholic Church agrees that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said, we also note that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well, indicating justification to have another aspect to it. Again, there is a sense in which justification is a past action in the life of believers, but there is another sense in which justification is revealed to be a process as well.

Abraham was depicted as having saving faith in God long before Genesis 15:6. Abraham had already responded to God’s call in Genesis 12 with what is revealed to be saving faith, years before his encounter with the Lord in Genesis 15. In addition, Abraham is revealed to have been justified again in Genesis 22, years after Genesis 15, when he offered his son Isaac in sacrifice in obedience to the Lord.

Genesis 12:14: Now the Lord said to Abraham, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you…" So Abram went, as the Lord had told him. Compare Hebrews 11:6,8: And without faith it is impossible to please God… By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called… and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Genesis 15:4,6: "This man [a slave] shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." And [Abram] believed the Lord: and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. Compare Romans 4:3: For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Genesis 22:15-17: And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendents as the stars of heaven… because you have obeyed my voice." Compare James 2:21-22,24: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?… faith was completed by works… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Bible tells us Abraham had faith way back in Genesis 12. And according to Hebrews 11:6-8, this was not a natural faith analogous to the faith the demons have (see James 2:19), but rather a supernatural and saving faith given as a gift from God. If Abraham was not justified until Genesis 15:6, how could he already have saving faith in Genesis 12? In addition, if Abraham was justified once and for all in Genesis 15:6, why did he need to be justified again in Genesis 22 according to James 2:21? The reason is simple: According to these texts, justification is revealed in Scripture to be a process rather than a mere one-time event.

As the Southern Baptists would say, "PREACH IT, Brother!"

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Very good point. I have known about this for quite a while, but didn't have the gumption to type it all out. We can agree that Romans 4:3 demonstrates Abraham to have been justified through the gift of faith he received from God. The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," referencing Genesis 15:6.

There is more to this text, however, than many of our non-Catholic friends know. While the Catholic Church agrees that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said, we also note that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well, indicating justification to have another aspect to it. Again, there is a sense in which justification is a past action in the life of believers, but there is another sense in which justification is revealed to be a process as well.

Abraham was depicted as having saving faith in God long before Genesis 15:6. Abraham had already responded to God’s call in Genesis 12 with what is revealed to be saving faith, years before his encounter with the Lord in Genesis 15. In addition, Abraham is revealed to have been justified again in Genesis 22, years after Genesis 15, when he offered his son Isaac in sacrifice in obedience to the Lord.

Genesis 12:14: Now the Lord said to Abraham, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you…" So Abram went, as the Lord had told him. Compare Hebrews 11:6,8: And without faith it is impossible to please God… By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called… and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Genesis 15:4,6: "This man [a slave] shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." And [Abram] believed the Lord: and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. Compare Romans 4:3: For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Genesis 22:15-17: And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendents as the stars of heaven… because you have obeyed my voice." Compare James 2:21-22,24: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?… faith was completed by works… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Bible tells us Abraham had faith way back in Genesis 12. And according to Hebrews 11:6-8, this was not a natural faith analogous to the faith the demons have (see James 2:19), but rather a supernatural and saving faith given as a gift from God. If Abraham was not justified until Genesis 15:6, how could he already have saving faith in Genesis 12? In addition, if Abraham was justified once and for all in Genesis 15:6, why did he need to be justified again in Genesis 22 according to James 2:21? The reason is simple: According to these texts, justification is revealed in Scripture to be a process rather than a mere one-time event.

If so Abraham were justified by works he hath where of to glory; but not before God.... romans 4:2

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it counted unto him for righteousness.... romans 4:3

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. ... romans 4:4

But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness .. romans 4:5

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not count sin..... romans 4:8


And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin... hebrews 10:17-18

 

[Catholic Christian]

If so Abraham were justified by works he hath where of to glory; but not before God.... romans 4:2

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it counted unto him for righteousness.... romans 4:3

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. ... romans 4:4

But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness .. romans 4:5

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not count sin..... romans 4:8


And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin... hebrews 10:17-18

You're slinging scriptures like mudballs, hoping a few will stick. Face it: We have demonstrated, using Abraham, that Justification is an ongoing process.

Justification can be summed up in two words: Divine Sonship.

We are adopted sons in the Father, and the Father is fathering children. If I were two years old and still loading my diapers that would be OK. However, if I were 20 years old and still loading my diapers that would be bad. We are expected to grow. Justification is not a one time juridical event, but rather it is an ongoing dynamic process. This is a key difference between the Catholic and protestant understanding of justification. But, this IS by Grace Alone.

When Paul speaks of works of the law he means works of the Torah. (As you know, the Hebrew word for "Law" is "Torah".) If you read "Torah" whenever you see "Law", things will look a whole lot different and become a much clearer. We agree, we are not saved by works of the Torah. However, we are required to do what ever works Christ commanded us to do.

Authentic Faith is, as Paul says, "Faith working through love". (Galatians 5:6 )

 

[Ormly]

their is 12 gifts given to the church ... desire your gift

each christian recieves one gift thus the reason for christians to have unity of spirit so that they can love one another

Non supportable assertions.

 

[Ormly]

You're slinging scriptures like mudballs, hoping a few will stick. Face it: We have demonstrated, using Abraham, that Justification is an ongoing process.

Justification can be summed up in two words: Divine Sonship.

We are adopted sons in the Father, and the Father is fathering children. If I were two years old and still loading my diapers that would be OK. However, if I were 20 years old and still loading my diapers that would be bad. We are expected to grow. Justification is not a one time juridical event, but rather it is an ongoing dynamic process. This is a key difference between the Catholic and protestant understanding of justification. But, this IS by Grace Alone.

When Paul speaks of works of the law he means works of the Torah. (As you know, the Hebrew word for "Law" is "Torah".) If you read "Torah" whenever you see "Law", things will look a whole lot different and become a much clearer. We agree, we are not saved by works of the Torah. However, we are required to do what ever works Christ commanded us to do.

Authentic Faith is, as Paul says, "Faith working through love". (Galatians 5:6 )

Nah. You are confusing it with sanctification; becoming Holy as the Father is Holy unto Son-ship in Him.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

their is 12 gifts given to the church ... desire your gift

each christian recieves one gift thus the reason for christians to have unity of spirit so that they can love one another

Non supportable assertions.

one gift.. 1 peter 4:10 ...recieve a gift... sigular

eph 2:15-16; 3:16-20; 4:1-16, 5:17-21 ;
john 13:34-35
1 john 3:16-19; 4:7-1 john 5:14

here is were you can start a study ....


ditto to your statements

 

[A Brother In Christ]

You're slinging scriptures like mudballs, hoping a few will stick. Face it: We have demonstrated, using Abraham, that Justification is an ongoing process.

Justification can be summed up in two words: Divine Sonship.

We are adopted sons in the Father, and the Father is fathering children. If I were two years old and still loading my diapers that would be OK. However, if I were 20 years old and still loading my diapers that would be bad. We are expected to grow. Justification is not a one time juridical event, but rather it is an ongoing dynamic process. This is a key difference between the Catholic and protestant understanding of justification. But, this IS by Grace Alone.

When Paul speaks of works of the law he means works of the Torah. (As you know, the Hebrew word for "Law" is "Torah".) If you read "Torah" whenever you see "Law", things will look a whole lot different and become a much clearer. We agree, we are not saved by works of the Torah. However, we are required to do what ever works Christ commanded us to do.

Authentic Faith is, as Paul says, "Faith working through love". (Galatians 5:6 )

gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

romans 4:14-16

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work work is no more work.

 

[Ormly]

one gift.. 1 peter 4:10 ...recieve a gift... sigular

eph 2:15-16; 3:16-20; 4:1-16, 5:17-21 ;
john 13:34-35
1 john 3:16-19; 4:7-1 john 5:14

here is were you can start a study ....


ditto to your statements

Who is Peter speaking to that he can assume all had received anything of God that he calls, [SIZE=+0]the gift? [/SIZE]
What is, 'The gift' in this?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

elect according to the forknowledge of God.. 1 peter 1:2

 

[Catholic Christian]

gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

romans 4:14-16

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work work is no more work.

You have engaged in Isogesis. That Romans verse is in the context of works of the law. As I already stated, when Paul speaks of works of the law he means works of the Torah. (As you know, the Hebrew word for "Law" is "Torah".) If you read "Torah" whenever you see "Law", things will look a whole lot different and become a much clearer. We agree, we are not saved by works of the Torah. However, we are required to do what ever works Christ commanded us to do.

Again, as I said, authentic Faith is, as Paul says, "Faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 ). When you take your Galations quote in context with this, you will see that I am correct.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

romans 4:14-16

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work work is no more work.

yet gal 2:21.. in galation or speak clearly

 

[beloved57]

terry says

You have engaged in Isogesis. That Romans verse is in the context of works of the law. As I already stated, when Paul speaks of works of the law he means works of the Torah. (As you know, the Hebrew word for "Law" is "Torah".) If you read "Torah" whenever you see "Law", things will look a whole lot different and become a much clearer. We agree, we are not saved by works of the Torah. However, we are required to do what ever works Christ commanded us to do.

It does not matter if its the torah or mount rushmore , all works period, are excluded in the matter of salvation, the very concept or principle of works is also meant, anything giving sembalence of a reward concept , that is, if you do this ,then I do that, that whole concept is false..

rom 11:

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

rom 3

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Faith is not something Man does , it is evidence of what God has done..

heb 11:

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Thats the law of Faith, not something an action, Man does, its the communication of God to a person regarding a spiritual reality and Him giving assurance of accomplished purposes or promises..

 

[Ormly]

elect according to the forknowledge of God.. 1 peter 1:2

How about the rest of my question?

 

[Catholic Christian]

all works period, are excluded in the matter of salvation

Is that so? Perhaps you can explain Matthew 16: 14-15: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Here, Jesus himself commands that you must DO something in order to be forgiven. DOING something is a work, not of the Torah, but of the NEW law of Christ.

You have been irrevocably refuted.

 

[beloved57]

Is that so? Perhaps you can explain Matthew 16: 14-15: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Here, Jesus himself commands that you must DO something in order to be forgiven. DOING something is a work, not of the Torah, but of the NEW law of Christ.

You have been irrevocably refuted.

You have only quoted a verse which is true but does not disprove what I have posted..sorry..

 

[Ormly]

Is that so? Perhaps you can explain Matthew 16: 14-15: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Here, Jesus himself commands that you must DO something in order to be forgiven. DOING something is a work, not of the Torah, but of the NEW law of Christ.

You have been irrevocably refuted.

In the matter of salvation, he is correct. However, in the matter of sanctification, once one has been born again, he is not. Salvation is, as spoken of by Jesus and Paul and Peter, is to be understood that it embraces both justification and sanctification, the one being imputed while the other imparted, Grace of God.