Abraham was justified in Genesis TWELVE.

[Catholic Christian]

I just stumbled upon an excellent website with resources that present the Catholic view on justification. Here is an exerpt:

Essential Catholic Teaching on Justification

Without God, you're dead (Eph. 2:5), and there's absolutely nothing - not works, not faith, not anything - a dead person can do to make himself alive (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification chapter 8). A dead person cannot be a cause in his own regeneration (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification chapter 7). Unfortunately for us, this is the state into which we were born, in Adam, deprived of grace and spiritual life (Council of Trent, Decree on Original Sin, Decree on Justification chapter 1).

However, when the Father gratuitously recreates you in Christ (2Cor. 5:17-18), gives you supernatural life by "the Spirit of sonship" (Rom. 8:15-17), and gives you faith, hope, and charity (the virtues of 1Cor. 13:13), He can empower you with His grace to do anything (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification). After all, "all things are possible with God" (Mk. 10:27) and "nothing will be impossible to you" (Mt. 17:20). Jesus promised "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). To what purpose? "We have received grace... to bring about the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; also known as "faith working in love" in Gal. 5:6, which Paul calls "good works" in Eph. 2:10). The Lord says "My grace is sufficient for you" (2Cor. 12:9), and we answer "by the grace of God I am what I am" (1Cor 15:10), a child of God the Father (1Jn. 3:1).

Our Father really does have both the love and the power to completely transform men, in Christ and by the Holy Spirit, into beloved sons.
If you can understand and remember this, you can understand Catholic teaching about justification.
(END)



Here is the link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/just-resource.html

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Is that so? Perhaps you can explain Matthew 16: 14-15: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Here, Jesus himself commands that you must DO something in order to be forgiven. DOING something is a work, not of the Torah, but of the NEW law of Christ.

You have been irrevocably refuted.

what is the New Law... do you now what it is?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I just stumbled upon an excellent website with resources that present the Catholic view on justification. Here is an exerpt:

Essential Catholic Teaching on Justification

Without God, you're dead (Eph. 2:5), and there's absolutely nothing - not works, not faith, not anything - a dead person can do to make himself alive (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification chapter 8). A dead person cannot be a cause in his own regeneration (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification chapter 7). Unfortunately for us, this is the state into which we were born, in Adam, deprived of grace and spiritual life (Council of Trent, Decree on Original Sin, Decree on Justification chapter 1).

However, when the Father gratuitously recreates you in Christ (2Cor. 5:17-18), gives you supernatural life by "the Spirit of sonship" (Rom. 8:15-17), and gives you faith, hope, and charity (the virtues of 1Cor. 13:13), He can empower you with His grace to do anything (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification). After all, "all things are possible with God" (Mk. 10:27) and "nothing will be impossible to you" (Mt. 17:20). Jesus promised "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). To what purpose? "We have received grace... to bring about the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; also known as "faith working in love" in Gal. 5:6, which Paul calls "good works" in Eph. 2:10). The Lord says "My grace is sufficient for you" (2Cor. 12:9), and we answer "by the grace of God I am what I am" (1Cor 15:10), a child of God the Father (1Jn. 3:1).

Our Father really does have both the love and the power to completely transform men, in Christ and by the Holy Spirit, into beloved sons.
If you can understand and remember this, you can understand Catholic teaching about justification.
(END)



Here is the link:
[URL="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/just-resource.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/just-resource.html[/URL]

how goes one get the grace.... salavtion?, present tense life ?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

one gift.. 1 peter 4:10 ...recieve a gift... sigular

eph 2:15-16; 3:16-20; 4:1-16, 5:17-21 ;
john 13:34-35
1 john 3:16-19; 4:7-1 john 5:14

here is were you can start a study ....


ditto to your statements

Who is Peter speaking to that he can assume all had received anything of God that he calls, [SIZE=+0]the gift? [/SIZE]
What is, 'The gift' in this?

elect according to the forknowledge of God.. 1 peter 1:2

How about the rest of my question?

it a general question that every believer get one so use it

 

[Catholic Christian]

what is the New Law... do you now what it is?

Yep: Anything Christ says you must DO, and there's a lot of them

 

[A Brother In Christ]

it a general question that every believer get one so use it

Yep: Anything Christ says you must DO, and there's a lot of them

what is the new law that God gave....

I see you do not know since you answer
without and answer very gernerally

John 13:34-35 is the New commandment
do you know how to love? with scripture references ?

 

[Catholic Christian]

what is the new law that God gave....
I see you do not know since you answer without and answer very gernerally
John 13:34-35 is the New commandment do you know how to love? with scripture references ?

I will give you four examples of things you must DO, you can look for more on your own:

John 6: 53-54:"...I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day"

John 3:5 "...I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"

Matt 25: 41-42 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink.."

Luje 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

 

[Catholic Christian]

how goes one get the grace.... salavtion?, present tense life ?

huh?

 

[beloved57]

terr says

Is that so? Perhaps you can explain Matthew 16: 14-15: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Here, Jesus himself commands that you must DO something in order to be forgiven. DOING something is a work, not of the Torah, but of the NEW law of Christ.

You have been irrevocably refuted

This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved by the grace of God. Jesus calls them their heavenly Father denoting that these folks are saved..But as saved children of God we at times hold grudges against our spiritual brethern..

He is basically saying the same as paul in eph 4:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We will experience Gods chastening hand when we harbor ill feelings towards our brethern in christ and God will condemned our hearts as in 1 jn 3

19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

So this is what Jesus is speaking of when e says our heavenly father will not forgive us if we dont forgive our brethern He condems our heart..

So this terry guy has not one whit proven anything but only continues to show that he does not understand the God or the bible..

 

[Catholic Christian]

This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved by the grace of God. Jesus calls them their heavenly Father denoting that these folks are saved..But as saved children of God we at times hold grudges against our spiritual brethern..

He is basically saying the same as paul in eph 4....

Are you saying that you do not have to forgive others in order to be forgiven? I beg to differ.

 

[Catholic Dude]

terr says



This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved by the grace of God. Jesus calls them their heavenly Father denoting that these folks are saved..But as saved children of God we at times hold grudges against our spiritual brethern..

He is basically saying the same as paul in eph 4:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We will experience Gods chastening hand when we harbor ill feelings towards our brethern in christ and God will condemned our hearts as in 1 jn 3

19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

So this is what Jesus is speaking of when e says our heavenly father will not forgive us if we dont forgive our brethern He condems our heart..

So this terry guy has not one whit proven anything but only continues to show that he does not understand the God or the bible..

Your interpretation of "forgive or else you wont be forgiven is wrong". The same teaching is given in Mat 18:25-32 and it clearly involves grace, salvation, sin and condemnation.

 

[beloved57]

Your interpretation of "forgive or else you wont be forgiven is wrong". The same teaching is given in Mat 18:25-32 and it clearly involves grace, salvation, sin and condemnation.

believe what you wanna believe my position stands and has not been disproved yet..

I have ably dealt with you guys scriptures and yall continue to run from mine showing me your inability to cope with my scripture references as I do yours you have not the ability to debate me scripturally..so I will ignore you guys until I get a real hallenge to what I have posted..

 

[Catholic Dude]

believe what you wanna believe my position stands and has not been disproved yet..

I have ably dealt with you guys scriptures and yall continue to run from mine showing me your inability to cope with my scripture references as I do yours you have not the ability to debate me scripturally..so I will ignore you guys until I get a real hallenge to what I have posted..

You didnt address my passage at all, and I guarantee my passage turns what you have been saying on its head.

Anyway...WHAT passages have I ignored that you put forward?...arent you forgetting this is MY THREAD where I originally posted passages that I was interested in having people like you address...I dont remember you addressing my original comments so you have no room to say Im avoiding anything.

 

[Catholic Christian]

believe what you wanna believe my position stands and has not been disproved yet....

How can you say that with a straight face? Jesus SPECIFICALLY says that IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE OTHERS, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. It doesn't get much plainer than that.

This is a WORK: Something you MUST DO. PERIOD.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

How can you say that with a straight face? Jesus SPECIFICALLY says that IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE OTHERS, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. It doesn't get much plainer than that.

This is a WORK: Something you MUST DO. PERIOD.

if one understand romans 4:5 that they need a savior do to them being a sinner .... they will understand that other people need a saviour also

John 1:13, john 6:28-29 god's work not our own

 

[Ormly]

I will give you four examples of things you must DO, you can look for more on your own:

John 6: 53-54:"...I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day"

John 3:5 "...I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"

Matt 25: 41-42 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink.."

Luje 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Thats terrible!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Yep: Anything Christ says you must DO, and there's a lot of them

what is the new law that God gave....

I see you do not know since you answer
without and answer very gernerally

John 13:34-35 is the New commandment
do you know how to love? with scripture references ?

I will give you four examples of things you must DO, you can look for more on your own:

John 6: 53-54:"...I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day"

yes ... a relationship

who starts it... John 6:44,65
john 15:16

example mt 16:17

we are ungodly believers ... romans 4:5

John 3:5 "...I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"

luke 17:20-21 Kingdom of God is within you ..

acts 1:5 For John truly batized with water; but you shall be baptized by the Holy Spirit in a few days.

Matt 25: 41-42 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink.."

1 john 3:16-18, called love... yes

but this a tribulational verse for those who get saved during this time.... when bringing food and water to the 144,000 while some are in prison they become a marter

Luje 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Holy Spirit put us in the body 1 cor 12:12-13

how goes one get the grace.... salavtion?, present tense life ?

huh?

salvation .... ears to hear ... mk 4:9-12
words from a believer giving the gospel romans 10:17

present tense life ... col 3:1-4, 2 tim 2:1, eph 3:16-20

 

[Ormly]

How can you say that with a straight face? Jesus SPECIFICALLY says that IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE OTHERS, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. It doesn't get much plainer than that.

This is a WORK: Something you MUST DO. PERIOD.

But for salvation or the working out of ones salvation, Terry?

 

[beloved57]

How can you say that with a straight face? Jesus SPECIFICALLY says that IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE OTHERS, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. It doesn't get much plainer than that.

This is a WORK: Something you MUST DO. PERIOD.

Salvation is not based on wether or not you forgive someone..lol..Thats a false teaching..

 

[Catholic Christian]

But for salvation or the working out of ones salvation, Terry?

I'm not quite sure what your question is....