Abortions????

redleghunter

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Oh dear, I still haven't got the hang of replying to multiple points :doh:
Highlight each paragraph or sentence you want to quote and the “reply” and “quote” option show. Then hit the quote portion and it adds to multiquote. Then when you are finished go to the bottom reply dialogue box and hit “insert quotes”
 
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redleghunter

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Another extreme emotional attempt to get the reader to feel bad if they dont agree with you.
What do you think the OP was? And as such why do you belay the responses to such absurdity as put forth in the OP?

Do you also liken the murder of a healthy Mother to the removal of one who is on life support who is expected to never get off? both are human beings and, although rare, people have gotten off life support who were told they wouldnt.
A nice non-sequitur. But in which paints you in a corner. For someone to argue we should wait and see if someone comes off life support means one should do no harm with life in the womb.

And once this has happened, it would seem that this would get rid of at least 90% of the current abortions...since you are the second person to bring up killing a nine month term baby in caparison to the child that has been born....
No. Over 97% of all abortions procured in the US are on demand when both the woman and child are healthy.

Are you able to use examples that arent extreme?
Again consider the OP which is extreme.

Can you think of everyday examples
Which just exacerbates the false equivalencies and false dichotomies.

I think it would also be helpful to all if you could supply the verse that you believe states that terminating a pregnancy is murder..
Healthy mother and healthy child are the vast majorities of abortions. What do you call a premeditated termination of a human life against their will? Exodus 20:13 covers this.

So self defense resulting in death is also murder in your eyes?
Another false equivalency as you are trying to introduce abortion as a means of self defense.

I was referring to scriptures that imply that life begins before you are born..
It begs the question to you to determine when life begins as observable science puts human life beginning distinct from the human parents at conception. Which is abundantly evidenced:

Here

Here

And the Holy Scriptures provide evidence that YHWH is involved with our human development in the womb as evidenced here:

Psalm 139:13-16 - For you created my inmost being; you knit me to...

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, be...

Psalm 127:3-5 - Children are a heritage from the LORD, offsprin...

Genesis 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the...

Psalm 8:5-7 - You have made them a little lower than the ange...

Job 31:15 - Did not he who made me in the womb make them? D...

Psalm 22:10 - From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s ...

Isaiah 49:15 - “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and...

Isaiah 49:15 - “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and...

So you have no scripture for it....only science books? I have no problems with that. Your argument stands and is respected......as long as you respect others who also choose to use science to prove or disprove commandments in the bible...
The science confirms the Scripture in this case quite nicely. See above links.

So you honestly would feel the same allowing your child to be in the presence of one who has had an abortion that you would feel allowing them in the presence of one who has murdered a random child at the park? the actions of both these people invoke the same level of fear or concern for the safety of yourself or a living child?
Another non-sequitur. First how would I know and second why would One not think in pastoral terms?


This is not about the morality of ask...this is about realistic feelings and reactions.
It’s completely about morality. The abortion debate comes down to whether or not one sees the human being in the womb is of equal moral worth to humans of every developmental stage. As created in the Image of God, Imago Dei, all human beings have moral worth. Their stage of development and location has no bearing on their moral worth.

Those who consider human life in the womb as sub human usually create subjective standards based on a false premise to justify abortion on demand.

We can talk about the morality of abortion, without claiming that it is the same and murdering men women and children in the streets.
Again what do you call the premeditated termination of human life against their will?


even if it is feasible to only save one.....shouldnt those against choice only be for procedures to save the mother only if they have no effect on the child whatsoever.
Again in this situation there are two equally moral lives involved where the health of one is dependent on the other.

This is not the issue of abortion the OP is discussing as some type of mercy killing to avoid abuse and suffering. Nor is this the situation where a healthy mother and healthy human fetus are the vast majority of abortions on demand.

Im talking about situations where the mother would need treatment to save her life....but the same treatment would kill the baby. If we want to get rid of choice.....shouldnt this be out of the question as well?
Getting rid of medical necessity to save a life has never been the debate. Even before Roe the life of the woman was protected by law. So another false dichotomy you present.

Yet in the case of cancer and advised by an oncologist that treatments should begin immediately, the very seriousness of the condition would certainly endanger both the mother and the child in the womb. If she does not take the treatments the child will most likely die with her. If she takes them then the child may die or survive with her.

A pastor friend had a daughter who decided to delay treatments to have her child. The decision she made post Roe was the same available pre Roe.

And which does not address the above 97% of all abortions procured where the mother and child are healthy.
 
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redleghunter

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I suppose you hold the heretical view that Jesus became God after being born?
Yes I’m glad I did not have to drop the MOAB (mother of all bombs) in this thread. Those who deny the “personhood” or humanity of a child in the womb have serious Christological issues to discuss starting with the Incarnation.
 
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RaymondG

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I suppose you hold the heretical view that Jesus became God after being born?
I suppose comments like these get you "likes" from some religious, and make yet others feel emotional? From me you get neither.
 
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RaymondG

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Life is life. If God wanted to explain everything in the world in the Bible it would be trillions of pages in size!
I understand. Just thought you may of had scripture, since this is a religion site. Im fine with opinions, and scientific views as well.
 
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RaymondG

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Yes I’m glad I did not have to drop the MOAB (mother of all bombs) in this thread. Those who deny the “personhood” or humanity of a child in the womb have serious Christological issues to discuss starting with the Incarnation.
Can you show me the post of one who denied the humanity of a child? Or are you just inserting what you want to see just to have something to debate?....as agreement and civil discussion are few so we must sow discord to try an reap the harvest thereof.
 
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Not David

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I suppose comments like these get you "likes" from some religious, and make yet others feel emotional? From me you get neither.
Well, if you believe all pre-born children aren't human then you wouldn't put an exception to Christ.
 
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RaymondG

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What do you think the OP was? And as such why do you belay the responses to such absurdity as put forth in the OP?


A nice non-sequitur. But in which paints you in a corner. For someone to argue we should wait and see if someone comes off life support means one should do no harm with life in the womb.


No. Over 97% of all abortions procured in the US are on demand when both the woman and child are healthy.


Again consider the OP which is extreme.


Which just exacerbates the false equivalencies and false dichotomies.


Healthy mother and healthy child are the vast majorities of abortions. What do you call a premeditated termination of a human life against their will? Exodus 20:13 covers this.


Another false equivalency as you are trying to introduce abortion as a means of self defense.


It begs the question to you to determine when life begins as observable science puts human life beginning distinct from the human parents at conception. Which is abundantly evidenced:

Here

Here

And the Holy Scriptures provide evidence that YHWH is involved with our human development in the womb as evidenced here:

Psalm 139:13-16 - For you created my inmost being; you knit me to...

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, be...

Psalm 127:3-5 - Children are a heritage from the LORD, offsprin...

Genesis 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the...

Psalm 8:5-7 - You have made them a little lower than the ange...

Job 31:15 - Did not he who made me in the womb make them? D...

Psalm 22:10 - From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s ...

Isaiah 49:15 - “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and...

Isaiah 49:15 - “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and...


The science confirms the Scripture in this case quite nicely. See above links.


Another non-sequitur. First how would I know and second why would One not think in pastoral terms?



It’s completely about morality. The abortion debate comes down to whether or not one sees the human being in the womb is of equal moral worth to humans of every developmental stage. As created in the Image of God, Imago Dei, all human beings have moral worth. Their stage of development and location has no bearing on their moral worth.

Those who consider human life in the womb as sub human usually create subjective standards based on a false premise to justify abortion on demand.


Again what do you call the premeditated termination of human life against their will?



Again in this situation there are two equally moral lives involved where the health of one is dependent on the other.

This is not the issue of abortion the OP is discussing as some type of mercy killing to avoid abuse and suffering. Nor is this the situation where a healthy mother and healthy human fetus are the vast majority of abortions on demand.


Getting rid of medical necessity to save a life has never been the debate. Even before Roe the life of the woman was protected by law. So another false dichotomy you present.

Yet in the case of cancer and advised by an oncologist that treatments should begin immediately, the very seriousness of the condition would certainly endanger both the mother and the child in the womb. If she does not take the treatments the child will most likely die with her. If she takes them then the child may die or survive with her.

A pastor friend had a daughter who decided to delay treatments to have her child. The decision she made post Roe was the same available pre Roe.

And which does not address the above 97% of all abortions procured where the mother and child are healthy.
You are a master debater, so your time would be better spent with one of similar debate skills who understand your debate terms. Im looking to reason only with those of reasonable spirits....
 
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RaymondG

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Well, if you believe all pre-born children aren't human then you wouldn't put an exception to Christ.
Do you have a quote of me saying these words, or giving this idea, or do you only aim to sow discord?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Miracle healing is not up for debate in this thread as well. Try to stick to the topic at hand....Abortion.
I will let the silent majority decide whether my post was appropriate for that person who is disabled and suffering pain and may be having suicidal thoughts. I think that my post was a lot more compassionate and representative of Jesus than yours.
 
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redleghunter

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Just to shed some light on statistics.

by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 18 January 2016

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies
.

Abortion statistics

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States
 
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marineimaging

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I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I just had a thought. Christians who are against abortions, I'm curious as to why you would rather a child suffer in this life, rather than being sent to heaven before enduring any suffering? As far as I can remember children are granted automatic entry into heaven until they can be held accountable. So why deny a child a chance to have a loving home with your heavenly father instead of being raised in foster care, or worse? I don't get it.
Because GOD considers life valuable. End of comment.
 
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redleghunter

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Can you show me the post of one who denied the humanity of a child? Or are you just inserting what you want to see just to have something to debate?....as agreement and civil discussion are few so we must sow discord to try an reap the harvest thereof.
You are now not taking a position abortion is not the premeditated termination of human life against such life’s will (murder)?

As such the Christological implications on the “personhood” of Christ from conception?
 
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RaymondG

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You are now not taking a position abortion is not the premeditated termination of human life against such life’s will (murder)?

As such the Christological implications on the “personhood” of Christ from conception?
You speak with enticing words of mans wisdom....I would rather speak 5 words that everyone understands than a thousand debate and religious terms that are all understandable by only a few. This is one of the reasons I do not discuss anything with you.....it seems you feel using layman terms makes one less knowledgeable. But remember the Disciples were considered ignorant and unlearned.....

The truth is, I took no position on abortion in this thread. But you and others seem to liken, anything other than your side as the wrong side...and treat me accordingly.....even going a far and outright proclaim what side Im on for me. What gain can be had from conversing in this manner?
 
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RaymondG

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I will let the silent majority decide whether my post was appropriate for that person who is disabled and suffering pain and may be having suicidal thoughts. I think that my post was a lot more compassionate and representative of Jesus than yours.
Every conversation i have with you, leaves me utterly confused and flabbergasted. I Never know when to agree or disagree or when to think i even understand what is being said and why. Oh that note, have a nice night.
 
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Miles

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I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I just had a thought. Christians who are against abortions, I'm curious as to why you would rather a child suffer in this life, rather than being sent to heaven before enduring any suffering? As far as I can remember children are granted automatic entry into heaven until they can be held accountable. So why deny a child a chance to have a loving home with your heavenly father instead of being raised in foster care, or worse? I don't get it.
You assume that the child would suffer, and you assume that the child would rather die than live. Why not give them a chance by putting them up for adoption instead?
 
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I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I just had a thought. Christians who are against abortions, I'm curious as to why you would rather a child suffer in this life, rather than being sent to heaven before enduring any suffering? As far as I can remember children are granted automatic entry into heaven until they can be held accountable. So why deny a child a chance to have a loving home with your heavenly father instead of being raised in foster care, or worse? I don't get it.
Well obviously "abortion " is murder .
No can of "worms" friend .
And , why do you presume to know what others think?
 
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