Abortions????

RaymondG

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Thou shalt not Murder

A commandment from God
Agreed. I think it would also be helpful to all if you could supply the verse that you believe states that terminating a pregnancy is murder.. And so if you believe there are any exceptions to this rule.
 
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NW82

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apparently, I was not aware of the prevalence of 9 month term abortions. This have to be the case, or else you are just wasting time. I'll assume the former, and agree, that we should try and stop full term abortions at all cost. And once this has happened, it would seem that this would get rid of at least 90% of the current abortions...since you are the second person to bring up killing a nine month term baby in caparison to the child that has been born....
If you will notice in my post, I said for this example which gives a qualifier to my point. At no time did I state there was a prevalence of anything. Be specific with your words and do not assume. What is the significant different between a baby in the womb at 9 weeks versus 9 months? Development stages, nothing more nothing less. With this in mind at what point does that being become significant enough to qualify for life or not? Both have the potential, given over to their natural processes, to become a baby out of the womb. Given your position, at what point does this confer personhood?

Let's go to scripture shall we?
Psalm 139:13-16
Jeremiah 1:5
Psalm 127:3-5
Job 31:15
Psalm 22:10
 
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John 12:25

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I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I just had a thought. Christians who are against abortions, I'm curious as to why you would rather a child suffer in this life, rather than being sent to heaven before enduring any suffering? As far as I can remember children are granted automatic entry into heaven until they can be held accountable. So why deny a child a chance to have a loving home with your heavenly father instead of being raised in foster care, or worse? I don't get it.

If the murdered baby goes straight to heaven, it is deprived of opportunity. If it doesn’t get a chance to have a life on earth and goes straight to heaven, they won’t be able to earn any rewards or crowns. Maybe the child was meant to have some sort of special gift that would help people? Abortion would deny them of that opportunity, and those who would benefit from their abilities.

Why should anyone be exempt from suffering? The Lord Jesus Christ suffered. My suggestion for people who can’t provide for offspring is that they should avoid putting themselves in the situation where they would have to. Keep everything zipped up, and not have sex. This permissive, anything goes, ‘do what thou wilt’ Aleister Crowley type society creates nothing but problems and sense of entitlement.

I just have this suspicion that if mainstream media wasn’t pure sewage, abortion would be way, way down. There’s endless shows and movies out there brainwashing young people into believing they need to be having premarital sex, and lots of it. Otherwise they’re a loser. The way I see it, the mainstream media and the cesspool known as Hollywood has more blood on their hands than anyone because they encourage this permissive ‘do what thou wilt’ Crowley lifestyle that has led to millions of murdered babies.
 
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FatalHeart

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I know this is going to open a can of worms, but I just had a thought. Christians who are against abortions, I'm curious as to why you would rather a child suffer in this life, rather than being sent to heaven before enduring any suffering? As far as I can remember children are granted automatic entry into heaven until they can be held accountable. So why deny a child a chance to have a loving home with your heavenly father instead of being raised in foster care, or worse? I don't get it.

What scripture says children are automatically saved?

As for life in the womb: "“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

It also says, "We know that no murderer has eternal life." Which, read correctly, doesn't remove the hope of salvation by repentance, but obviously implies that un-repentance in such things is definitely a death sentence as with every sin. However, there is also that: "He who does not know will be beaten with few blows," meaning, although ignorance will still be punished, it is far less severe to be wrong because you are uncertain than to be wrong because you are stubborn.

I think in everything it is just best to go to God and let Him speak, then, when He comes back and causes distress for distress, you'll have escaped such a punishment by your honest obedience to what He has revealed. However, if anyone is self deluded in such things as important as someone's life, I imagine it will not end well. That's why it is so important to be sensitive to what God is saying.
 
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RaymondG

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If you will notice in my post, I said for this example which gives a qualifier to my point. At no time did I state there was a prevalence of anything. Be specific with your words and do not assume. What is the significant different between a baby in the womb at 9 weeks versus 9 months? Development stages, nothing more nothing less. With this in mind at what point does that being become significant enough to qualify for life or not? Both have the potential, given over to their natural processes, to become a baby out of the womb. Given your position, at what point does this confer personhood?
Very good discussion points. I personally do not place more importance on 9 weeks over 9 months, or 9 day terms. abortion is abortion period. I personal respect and opinions on all side....and choose not to judge them. For me, however, I am more concerned with the soul/spirit. The main question I have is if Gods plan is affect by these decisions made by man? E.G. does God send a soul to a person, just to have the parent make a decide, unknown by Him before hand, that somehow leaves this spirit in limbo..... now with no body and destined for a heaven or hell. I dont believe this happens. For example, I believe it possible, that I could have been aborted many times before being delivered to a mother that wanted to keep me.........so even though a few temporary homes were discarded, I Am still here, (assuming that we are waiting in a line of sorts for a body....which would have to imply that God doesnt know all).

Therefore this become more of a moral issue over spiritual/religious..... And morally, I dont like it....but im less likely to kill those that do support it because of what i mentioned above....
 
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Lost4words

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Agreed. I think it would also be helpful to all if you could supply the verse that you believe states that terminating a pregnancy is murder.. And so if you believe there are any exceptions to this rule.

Any life cut short deliberately is murder.
 
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Lost4words

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So self defense resulting in death is also murder in your eyes?

I was referring to scriptures that imply that life begins before you are born..

At conception, life begins.
 
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redleghunter

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I never said anything about abusive families, I was talking about people who can’t supply for a child. For instance the poor mother on the street corner just to get by, or the 13 year old child who had been raped and left. We live in America this stuff happens a lot and I live in the capital for human trafficking. Do you think they should be responsible for a live that they don’t want.
What about the human being in the womb?
 
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redleghunter

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Deuteronomy 1:39
“And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.”
Looks like YHWH is Pro Life right there.
 
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RaymondG

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At conception, life begins.
So you have no scripture for it....only science books? I have no problems with that. Your argument stands and is respected......as long as you respect others who also choose to use science to prove or disprove commandments in the bible...
 
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redleghunter

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Do you really feel that killing one who have known and experienced life is comparable to killing one who has never breathe before?
Given both are made in the image and according to the likeness of God, both options are immoral and the taking of a human being life.
 
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redleghunter

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Would you tell this to a young girl, knowing that going through with the pregnancy will kill her......or would you make exceptions for this wrong, evil killing for this and/or other reasons?
Both the pregnant woman and the child she is carrying are of equal moral worth as being made in the image of God. Every medical means should be used to save both lives. In our fallen world we know in some cases it is only feasible to save one or the other.

Before Roe v Wade decision every state to include Texas (which is the state Roe took to court) had provisions for the life of the pregnant woman.

Roe was about abortion on demand.

I will also note “Roe” Norma Leah McCorvey gave birth to her child and became a staunch Pro Life supporter later in life as a Roman Catholic.
 
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RaymondG

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Given both are made in the image and according to the likeness of God, both options are immoral and the taking of a human being life.
So you honestly would feel the same allowing your child to be in the presence of one who has had an abortion that you would feel allowing them in the presence of one who has murdered a random child at the park? the actions of both these people invoke the same level of fear or concern for the safety of yourself or a living child?

This is not about the morality of ask...this is about realistic feelings and reactions. We can talk about the morality of abortion, without claiming that it is the same and murdering men women and children in the streets.
 
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redleghunter

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So is it different degrees of experience or the number of times one's lungs fill with air that determine when we can kill humans? If one has less than X experiences, then it's ok to kill them. Or if one's lungs haven't yet inflated it's ok to kill them.
Indeed. The arguments are always subjective in nature and assume a sub human status for human beings based on location.
 
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RaymondG

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Both the pregnant woman and the child she is carrying are of equal moral worth as being made in the image of God. Every medical means should be used to save both lives. In our fallen world we know in some cases it is only feasible to save one or the other.

Before Roe v Wade decision every state to include Texas (which is the state Roe took to court) had provisions for the life of the pregnant woman.

Roe was about abortion on demand.

I will also note “Roe” Norma Leah McCorvey gave birth to her child and became a staunch Pro Life supporter later in life as a Roman Catholic.
even if it is feasible to only save one.....shouldnt those against choice only be for procedures to save the mother only if they have no effect on the child whatsoever. Im talking about situations where the mother would need treatment to save her life....but the same treatment would kill the baby. If we want to get rid of choice.....shouldnt this be out of the question as well?
 
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Not David

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So self defense resulting in death is also murder in your eyes?

I was referring to scriptures that imply that life begins before you are born..
I suppose you hold the heretical view that Jesus became God after being born?
 
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I think you would have a better chance persuading people to agree with abortion, than you would persuading them that God still does miracles today....
My post was directed to the specific person and so it is not up for discussion or debate.
 
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Lost4words

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So you have no scripture for it....only science books? I have no problems with that. Your argument stands and is respected......as long as you respect others who also choose to use science to prove or disprove commandments in the bible...

Life is life. If God wanted to explain everything in the world in the Bible it would be trillions of pages in size!
 
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redleghunter

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Are you now going to compare the killing of living beings on the earth to killing babies? I believe a child to be more important and should not be compared to other living beings.
Meaning they are not human? Please explain
 
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