Abortion

[Calliso]

I do understand what you are all saying, but I have to say that I think we are getting into very dangerous territory when we start talking about quality of life being a reason for death. Yes the child may have a horrible life, but we just don't know - only God knows, and at least give that child a life and a chance! They may have a low quality of life (by whose definition I wonder...), but that's better than zero quality of life (death).

I just keep coming back to it is not our place to judge whether another life is worth living.

And Calliso, I have to address what you said about what an abortion is like, generally people are told that it will be 'quick' with 'some discomfort' that it will get 'harder if you wait', 'minimal risks'. I certainly don't think that women considering this choice take it lightly (well I know some that do but most don't), but at the same time I don't think women are counselled effectively and properly about their options.

I don't care if someone is pro-choice, but remember the word 'choice', they don't HAVE to have an abortion either...

Well I was just saying someone might decide for themselves that their life is horrible and say hey I am not going to bring a child into this. Not trying to say though everyone in a bad situation should abort though. But I do think their are some situations where I think most would agree that yeah that situation is a bad one.

Well I think it is true that the earlier you get it the easier it is. But yeah I do think that woman need to be counseled bettered. Or learn Doctors languages better. For instance when a Doctor says discomfort or pressure..that is just another way of saying this will hurt. Or at least in my experience it means that. Maybe more doctors need to stop using the softer words and just tell it how it is.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

Well I was just saying someone might decide for themselves that their life is horrible and say hey I am not going to bring a child into this. Not trying to say though everyone in a bad situation should abort though. But I do think their are some situations where I think most would agree that yeah that situation is a bad one.

I agree, but there are much better (for all involved) ways to not bring a child into a bad situation.

I also think that more information shouldn't be limited to physical explanations, I have had children as well as miscarried one, I know that pregnancy is a very hormonal and emotional experience and certainly not the best time to be making such an important decision hurredly. I think women should be given time to work through their emotions, to have relationship and financial counselling as well as emotional/spiritual counselling - and I think that they really need to explore the truth of other options (adoption, keeping the child) with an open mind - instead of being rushed into the 'easy' option...

But again, I speak out of my own hope and belief that God always has another, Better, way than abortion. And a bad life experience is still an experience - better than denying an existance in my opinion!

Thats just my opinion, and I'll say again that I certainly would not ever judge a woman who has chosen abortion! Such women (as do we all) need love and support - not condemnation.

 

[die2live]

The thing is though..I hear there is alot of people waiting to adopt. But the thing is there are also more then enough kids for all these people waiting to adopt!. I think from what I have heard the problem is..people want the perfect child. So I may be wrong but perhaps it would be more accruate to say..there is only one wanted adoptee for every 15 couples that wants to adopt. :/

I agree completely. But that wasn't my point. My point was that there is no reason to kill a child if the only reason is for that child's benefit. I think in my post I specified "American newborns" as opposed to any orphan of any age or nationality. The point I was trying to make was that virtually any candidate for abortion is a candidate for adoption into a good home.

 

[KristiLee]

Well I was just saying someone might decide for themselves that their life is horrible and say hey I am not going to bring a child into this. Not trying to say though everyone in a bad situation should abort though. But I do think their are some situations where I think most would agree that yeah that situation is a bad one.

But couldn't a bad situation turn quickly into a good one just as easily as a good into a bad? One could have the perfect job, perfect marriage, perfect attitude, perfect everything -and then all of a sudden they lose their job, their marriage is falling apart, and they are depressed and suicidal.... look at Job for instance -it was all rather sudden for him. To say that the situation should determine whether or not to abort a child than I certainly would not be here and I would certainly not have grown from all the bad situations in my life. God has used every single bit of hard, sad, depressing, scary, lonely, awful and desperate times in my life to bring me closer to Him -and desperate now, only to please Him.

Well I think it is true that the earlier you get it the easier it is. But yeah I do think that woman need to be counseled bettered. Or learn Doctors languages better. For instance when a Doctor says discomfort or pressure..that is just another way of saying this will hurt. Or at least in my experience it means that. Maybe more doctors need to stop using the softer words and just tell it how it is.

I definitely think doctors need to provide the opportunity for CHOICE to take place in this society that is geared toward supporting such a thing. I for one (as well as many I know) were not given such an opportunity when advice to use the birth control pill (no debate please, just sharing). I had no clue that it was abortifacient -no doctor ever told me that it was a potential and my parents didn't have a chance to explain it to me because they weren't authorized to know I was using it.

They say they support choice, but really it is support to choose to abort -not support in choosing IMHO. I hear people talking in the world who think people with many children are "wacko's" and that people who have more than 2 kids need to "close their legs" (pardon the nastiness of that please -but those were words that I've heard been used) and so forth. It just all seems a bit backwards to me. Why is aborting a child a choice? Why isn't terminating the life of a 5 year old a choice? Why don't they have clinics legally helping you to do so? Because it's wrong.

With that said -I don't judge; I just can't fully wrap my mind around how people can rationalize this in their minds.

Such women (as do we all) need love and support - not condemnation.

I agree, and I never want any woman to feel condemned for this choice they've made. God is a God of forgiveness and grace and will embrace you no matter what you've done. I can only imagine the torment that would go with making a choice as such... I would definitely need love and support had I done so -as I'd be my greatest enemy during that time.

 

[die2live]

Ok, I know that we're not going to come to an agreement on wether it's right or wrong; but what about the legal aspect of telling a woman that she can't have one?

It's the same as the legal aspect of the law saying we cannot murder.

 

[ciaradawn]

I still don't think that abortion being legal is right - becaues I think it undermines God - however I do understand the argument of providing a safe service (if infact it is regulated properly...) vs 'backyard' abortions - and I think it's a good argument, I don't have the answer to it... In a perfect world we wouldn't need this service at all - I know we don't live in a perfect world but abortion grieves me none the less...

Basically (if I understand your question properly - which I may not ) I don't think that it is my (or anyone's - except the parents in the case of minors) place to tell ANYONE else what to do, it is my place to make sure they have the full information and emotional support to make their choice competently...

You're right though, we are at a bit of a stale-mate here! That's ok!

I enjoyed your response. It seemed well thought out. For me, it's good to see someone who is against abortion take the other side on the legal issue; even though you still disagree.

 

[AgapeBible]

Do any of you here think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? I am pro-choice, I believe abortion might be necessary under only the most drastic of circumstances. What if the mother's life is in danger from having the baby? What if the mother was raped, the baby is caused by rape and the mother has no desire to carry a criminal's child? What if the baby will be severely retarded, handicapped, mentally ill, or a waterhead baby and will not live for more than a few days outside the womb?

I would only have an abortion if I were raped. I have no desire to have children. I am a virgin right now, and I would like to find the right man the Lord has planned for me and marry him. If he wants children we will adopt. The reason for this is mental illness runs in the family. I don't want to pass it on to my children.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

enjoyed your response. It seemed well thought out. For me, it's good to see someone who is against abortion take the other side on the legal issue; even though you still disagree.

thanks ciaradawn! It's always fun to have a friendly debate! The legal aspect is a difficult one to answer for two main reasons:
The secular nature of our society.
The highly personal/intimate and emotional nature of abortion.
What I mean is, it is very difficult and it can seem insensitive to legislate about something so emotive, something that really needs to be dealt with on a personal level...

Do any of you here think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? I am pro-choice, I believe abortion might be necessary under only the most drastic of circumstances. What if the mother's life is in danger from having the baby? What if the mother was raped, the baby is caused by rape and the mother has no desire to carry a criminal's child? What if the baby will be severely retarded, handicapped, mentally ill, or a waterhead baby and will not live for more than a few days outside the womb?

I would only have an abortion if I were raped. I have no desire to have children. I am a virgin right now, and I would like to find the right man the Lord has planned for me and marry him. If he wants children we will adopt. The reason for this is mental illness runs in the family. I don't want to pass it on to my children.

Do I think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? No, I don't think it's a sin. But neither do I think it is the ideal in trusting in God for a Christian. Again I think it's a personal between you and God thing...

To answer all your 'what if's' about abortion (in a nice my opinion only way ) I still come back to all life is in God's hands for His plan and we as humans do not have the authority to take life...

I also think that those are minority reasons that abortion is chosen, and that people experiencing such devastating circumstances need more love, support, understanding, counselling - and much more sensitivity than being used to make a point.

 

[Blank123]

Do any of you here think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? I am pro-choice, I believe abortion might be necessary under only the most drastic of circumstances. What if the mother's life is in danger from having the baby? What if the mother was raped, the baby is caused by rape and the mother has no desire to carry a criminal's child? What if the baby will be severely retarded, handicapped, mentally ill, or a waterhead baby and will not live for more than a few days outside the womb?

its not wrong to use the pill.I've heard arguments to the contrary but i've never found any evidence myself that using the birth control pill is ethically or morally wrong.

for a woman who was raped... i still think its wrong because even though it most definitely wasn't the ideal way to conceive a child there was a reason God created that baby and He does have a plan for that child's life. Whether the mother wants to raise the child - i wouldn't blame her for giving the baby away but IMHO (and i know i'm gonna take flack for this ) two wrongs don't make a right. Dealing with being raped is one thing adding the trauma of an abortion of top of that isn't going to help matters much.

for those babies that are deemed mentally or physcally handicapped... i've heard too many stories where doctors have predicted terrible lives for children only to have those kids born perfectly normal after the parents refused to terminate. I also have seen the kind of happiness a mentally or physically handicapped child can have in a loving environment. so no that wouldn't be an option for me if my doctor tried to tell me its better to abort than to have a handicapped child. And even if it meant i would only have a few days with my baby... so? That would be a few days i could hold my child and bond with him/her before i lost him/her. Abort in the womb and i'd never know what my child looked like, personality, etc... it would always be this faceless blob i threw away without ever getting to know or ever knowing with any real certainty if the doctors were right.

danger to the mother... this is possibly the only argument i've heard that has any real merit. And in this instance i would say it's up to the parents to decide whats best. I've still heard too many stories that turned out the other way and both the mother and baby were fine, so i doubt abortion would be my first instinct.

 

[ciaradawn]

thanks ciaradawn! It's always fun to have a friendly debate! The legal aspect is a difficult one to answer for two main reasons:
The secular nature of our society.
The highly personal/intimate and emotional nature of abortion.
What I mean is, it is very difficult and it can seem insensitive to legislate about something so emotive, something that really needs to be dealt with on a personal level...

I agree totally

Do I think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? No, I don't think it's a sin. But neither do I think it is the ideal in trusting in God for a Christian.

wait... I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying that it's not ideal for a married christian couple to be using the pill?

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

wait... I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying that it's not ideal for a married christian couple to be using the pill?

Well the argument can be made that if you are using the pill to prevent pregnancy then you're not really trusting in God. In my mind, ideally, we should be open and trusting in God no matter what happens, beleiving that a child is a blessing. I italiscised ideally, because I know that this is the sort of issue where it's easy to SAY or WRITE this, but in the situation things are not so black and white - which is why I don't think it's a sin to use birth control.
I hope that made sense! Again, I'd never judge anyone who used birth control at all! Basically it's none of my business, it's between the couple and God!

I also agree with what little_tigress has said.

But again, I speak out of my own hope and belief that God always has another, Better, way than abortion.

 

[ciaradawn]

Friendly disagreement (I edited it just a tad)
I disagree with you Leisamd, that because my husband and I use birth control that we are not trusting God. I kindof see your point, but it seems outdated in a way. We would never want to bring a child into the world before we were ready. If it happened then of course we would not abort it... but why risk it before we're ready; financially and mentally. It could also have the possibility of straining our marriage if we have a child before we're ready. Would you suggest that we not have sex until we're financially stable and ready? I don't think God looks down on a couple and says OK time for you to have a baby! It's our job to be responsible; same as it is for an unmarried young couple that are just having sex just because. They should be responsible.

By that same logic, if two young premarital people have sex and get pregnant you could argue that it was God's will that it happened. I would say that it was a stupid mistake, not God's will. They had sex and had a kid. What if they WERE using birth control and they still had a kid against the odds? God's will?

By that same token, condoms are a form of birth control. Would it be wrong to use them as well? What would be the difference between condoms and the pill?

I know you're not saying it's a sin, but that it's not right. And I know you said you're not judging; so this is just a friendly response with my own friendly opinion

I notice you're married & have 2 kids; I'm assuming you don't use birth control. you don't have to respond to that of course; just an observation.

 

[die2live]

Do any of you here think it's wrong to use the birth control pill? I am pro-choice, I believe abortion might be necessary under only the most drastic of circumstances. What if the mother's life is in danger from having the baby? What if the mother was raped, the baby is caused by rape and the mother has no desire to carry a criminal's child? What if the baby will be severely retarded, handicapped, mentally ill, or a waterhead baby and will not live for more than a few days outside the womb?

I would only have an abortion if I were raped. I have no desire to have children. I am a virgin right now, and I would like to find the right man the Lord has planned for me and marry him. If he wants children we will adopt. The reason for this is mental illness runs in the family. I don't want to pass it on to my children.

If pregnancy termination were performed only for the reasons you listed here, then the total number of abortions would drop by at least 93%. Something to think about.

And I agree with what little_tigress and Leisamd said about the rape and handicap cases. If the mother's life is in serious danger, then abortion becomes a medically necessary procedure. Most of the time, the baby would die anyway if the mother would. Though it is tragic that the life be cut short, even if only by a few months.

About the BC pill, I would never use it, or any kind of hormonal BC, because there is research indicating a possibility that these methods prevent implantation, not just fertilization. In other words, a life is created, and then prevented from continuing. For that reason, I have made a personal decision not to use hormonal BC if I ever get married. However, I do not believe the evidence for this is conclusive enough to declare the pill "morally wrong." If others choose to use it, I am not going to speak out against it, simply because there is not enough evidence for a solid case for or against it. I will share my beliefs on the subject when asked, but I won't argue or debate about it.

 

[AgapeBible]

Well I'm on the pill now, have been for several years even though I"ve never had sex for medical reasons. I agree that handicapped children should not be aborted, I have problems myself, I'm not normal, sometimes they turn out to be little angels in disguise. In case of rape it is a tragedy, it is not the baby's fault what the father did, I don't know what I would do if put in that situation.


What about people getting surgery so that they can't have any more children? After a couple has 2 or 3 kids, or however many they want, and they decide they don't want any more the husband decides to get a vasectomy. Is this a sin? I certainly don't think it is, my father had one. I think it is foolish and irresponsible to have a large number of children in today's society because the world is overpopulated, and we have a problem, especially in third-world countries, of feeding the poor people.

 

[Blank123]

Well I'm on the pill now, have been for several years even though I"ve never had sex for medical reasons. I agree that handicapped children should not be aborted, I have problems myself, I'm not normal, sometimes they turn out to be little angels in disguise. In case of rape it is a tragedy, it is not the baby's fault what the father did, I don't know what I would do if put in that situation.


What about people getting surgery so that they can't have any more children? After a couple has 2 or 3 kids, or however many they want, and they decide they don't want any more the husband decides to get a vasectomy. Is this a sin? I certainly don't think it is, my father had one. I think it is foolish and irresponsible to have a large number of children in today's society because the world is overpopulated, and we have a problem, especially in third-world countries, of feeding the poor people.

nah thats not a sin if you know you don't want kids or you know you're incapable of raising kids for whatever reason then it'd probably be the smart way to go.

the only problem with sterilization though that could come up is today the couple might be adamant they don't want kids but 10 years down the road they might change their mind and find they can't reverse whatever procedure was done. but then i guess adoption is always a choice

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

Friendly disagreement (I edited it just a tad)
I disagree with you Leisamd, that because my husband and I use birth control that we are not trusting God. I kindof see your point, but it seems outdated in a way. We would never want to bring a child into the world before we were ready. If it happened then of course we would not abort it... but why risk it before we're ready; financially and mentally. It could also have the possibility of straining our marriage if we have a child before we're ready. Would you suggest that we not have sex until we're financially stable and ready? I don't think God looks down on a couple and says OK time for you to have a baby! It's our job to be responsible; same as it is for an unmarried young couple that are just having sex just because. They should be responsible.

By that same logic, if two young premarital people have sex and get pregnant you could argue that it was God's will that it happened. I would say that it was a stupid mistake, not God's will. They had sex and had a kid. What if they WERE using birth control and they still had a kid against the odds? God's will?

By that same token, condoms are a form of birth control. Would it be wrong to use them as well? What would be the difference between condoms and the pill?

I know you're not saying it's a sin, but that it's not right. And I know you said you're not judging; so this is just a friendly response with my own friendly opinion

I notice you're married & have 2 kids; I'm assuming you don't use birth control. you don't have to respond to that of course; just an observation.

I'm enjoying our friendly disagreement!
I do see your point ciaradawn, and I do definately think that God expects us to be responsible and serious about having children. I'm glad to see that you are! I still think that even unplanned pregnancies are a part of God's plan - nothing happens outside of God's will (Matthew 10:29) - but I do agree that it isn't the ideal either. This is the grey area I was talking about, trusting God vs personal responsibility -and that is something that no outsider can comment on! My feelings on birth control are my own from my own experience - I'm not trying to push it on anyone!

condoms do fall under birth control too, and sterilisation for that matter... but I personally have some hesitations about the pill, about the mass numbers of women who take hormones to alter their normal body function... again, I'm not saying it's wrong - but it's another personal area in which women need to think it through for themselves...

I don't use birth control no, I have used it in the past though, I was on the pill for about 4 years straight - and it's way off topic but the pill wrecked my hormones making conceiving difficult for me - I know its off topic but I thought it may give you some insight into why I hold the views that I do!

 

[KristiLee]

What about people getting surgery so that they can't have any more children? After a couple has 2 or 3 kids, or however many they want, and they decide they don't want any more the husband decides to get a vasectomy.

I know people who have gotten vasectomies and tubal ligations but it is not as 100% as people assume that it is. Just a few people in my immediate surroundings - my MIL had two tubal pregnancies after her tubes were cut (the babies died). My friend was conceived while his father had a vasectomy. And my sister had my nephew after getting her tubes tied. And several others who were diagnosed as infertile that ... SURPRISE... got pregnant.

I think it's taking control... hence the term "birth control."

Whether that is a sin... I guess would depend on trusting in the Lord. He has said children are a blessing and a reward and those whose quiver is full of them is happy. To love is not to be selfish so one should consider why they want to (try to) terminate their chances of having these blessings and rewards that the Lord offers... is it because they are selfish and don't want to give up this ideal life they desire or because God has called them to do so?

I am not God. I do not judge anothers decision not to have children -I do know it is wrong to kill, wrong to be selfish and wrong to not trust God... so after much prayer my husband and I have a conviction that it is a sin for us to try to control our births. I also know some people who don't think it's wrong to drink, or wrong to have sex as long as you're committed to marry; to put their children in childcare or put them in public school under the authority of the godless... I do not judge those people either although dh and I have personal convictions against doing those things.

Jesus is our example and Jesus did not come to judge but He did stand for what was right and what blessed His Father. God on the other hand is the judge and we all have to take into account our motives for decisions we make... perhaps it's a righteous decision, guided by God (who am I to say to a family to go one way when God has told them to go another??) and perhaps it is completely self-motivated. That is between them and God.

That's my 2 cents.

So... is it a sin? That's between you and God.

 

[ciaradawn]

I'm enjoying our friendly disagreement!
I do see your point ciaradawn, and I do definately think that God expects us to be responsible and serious about having children. I'm glad to see that you are! I still think that even unplanned pregnancies are a part of God's plan - nothing happens outside of God's will (Matthew 10:29) - but I do agree that it isn't the ideal either. This is the grey area I was talking about, trusting God vs personal responsibility -and that is something that no outsider can comment on! My feelings on birth control are my own from my own experience - I'm not trying to push it on anyone!

condoms do fall under birth control too, and sterilisation for that matter... but I personally have some hesitations about the pill, about the mass numbers of women who take hormones to alter their normal body function... again, I'm not saying it's wrong - but it's another personal area in which women need to think it through for themselves...

I don't use birth control no, I have used it in the past though, I was on the pill for about 4 years straight - and it's way off topic but the pill wrecked my hormones making conceiving difficult for me - I know its off topic but I thought it may give you some insight into why I hold the views that I do!

after reading your other post I discussed the pill with someone and there are a lot of things I didn't realize. I knew there were times that were better to get pregnant, but I didn't realize that there are times when you cannot get pregnant. Yeah, i'm about to be 24 and I didn't know that. I don't think I was ever well educated on the subject. hello! My friend was saying "well what about natural family planning"; I think that's what it's called right? See I didn't even consider that. I just figured you HAD to be on birth control to guarantee not getting pregnant; I know it's not 100% but like you said, unplanned pregnancies can be good too. hmmm... now DH and I are going to have to discuss this (we haven't yet b/c we still don't live together...military). Very interesting things for us to think about... He probably knows more about the woman's body than I do!

 

[Phoebe777]

I had my daughter when I was 21 and I was unmarried and I would have never gotten an abortion.

When I was 23 I was in a relationship with my now hubby who is not the father of my daughter and I got pregnant and I was not ready for another child and I was also not serving the Lord at the time and he was not saved and we decided that it was for the best and I had one. It was one of the hardest decision that I EVER had to make. When I woke up from the proceedure I was crying and I felt so horrible. I felt dirty and so ashamed for years.

 

[Phoebe777]

I hope that no one judges me on what I just wrote.