Abortion to prevent increased suffering

[Tropical Wilds]

So, just to be sure, every single time your religious faith and science contradict, you go with science, and not Christianity?

I mean, every time so far… As far as I am aware, anyway.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Uhhhh… I’m vaccinated…?

I mean, I don’t know how to prove that to your satisfaction without you asking questions that would yield answers that help you to reach that conclusion.

You know, like science does.

Are you a Christian that believes in miracles?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Are you a Christian that believes in miracles?

Yes. But I also believe what constitutes a miracle is both subjective and can be proven by science.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. But I also believe what constitutes a miracle is both subjective and can be proven by science.

Are you familiar with the definition of the word “miracle”?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Are you familiar with the definition of the word “miracle”?

Obviously.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Obviously.

Apparently not my friend.

Miracle-a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Apparently not my friend.

Miracle-a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Again, miracles are subjective and broadly defined and often have numerous layers to them.

For example, I’ve had numerous miscarriages with undefined causes and infertility that spanned the better part of a decade. Then, when I wasn’t trying, I got pregnant and carried to term which I define as a miracle. Scientifically this is explained by saying that my body did what it’s supposed to do when you are pregnant. Scientifically, everything went as it should. However, what caused everything to go as it should after numerous failures? Why did my anemia not affect the pregnancy? Why were my hormone levels stable the whole time? Why did implantation work that time but no other time before or after? Science says “that’s how it’s supposed to work.” Faith says “I understand the science and statistics, but there’s a reason why all that worked out this time when it never did before.”

The COVID vaccine… Developing and having it available so quickly was a miracle. Science says that the best minds in the world worked tirelessly to develop it based off of information learned from related diseases that we have fought and studied for years. That early knowledge paired with the combined energy and focus of the smartest people around the world working to solve the crisis is what led to the development of the vaccine. But it’s nothing short of a miracle that the people with the knowledge to create the vaccine were led to their careers, able to complete their education, were in the right place at the right time to research it, and issues like fatigue, stress, etc. did not impact their ability to discern what they needed to in order to advance the progress of the treatments.

Hurricane headed to the states, strongest on record, but at the last moment it shifts and doesn’t make landfall. Science says they didn’t properly predict the hurricanes behavior or the weather around it changed in a way that made sense in hindsight or maybe they did see this outcome but stated it had a 1 out of 10 chance of happening and the last minute shift beat the odds. But beyond that, why did the weather change? Why did the statistically unlikely result occur? That’s faith. That’s the miracle.

The existence of a scientific answer does not preclude the miracle and a miracle does not preclude the existence of a scientific explanation. Both can occur together, and often do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, miracles are subjective and broadly defined and often have numerous layers to them.

For example, I’ve had numerous miscarriages with undefined causes and infertility that spanned the better part of a decade. Then, when I wasn’t trying, I got pregnant and carried to term which I define as a miracle. Scientifically this is explained by saying that my body did what it’s supposed to do when you are pregnant. Scientifically, everything went as it should. However, what caused everything to go as it should after numerous failures? Why did my anemia not affect the pregnancy? Why were my hormone levels stable the whole time? Why did implantation work that time but no other time before or after? Science says “that’s how it’s supposed to work.” Faith says “I understand the science and statistics, but there’s a reason why all that worked out this time when it never did before.”

The COVID vaccine… Developing and having it available so quickly was a miracle. Science says that the best minds in the world worked tirelessly to develop it based off of information learned from related diseases that we have fought and studied for years. That early knowledge paired with the combined energy and focus of the smartest people around the world working to solve the crisis is what led to the development of the vaccine. But it’s nothing short of a miracle that the people with the knowledge to create the vaccine were led to their careers, able to complete their education, were in the right place at the right time to research it, and issues like fatigue, stress, etc. did not impact their ability to discern what they needed to in order to advance the progress of the treatments.

Hurricane headed to the states, strongest on record, but at the last moment it shifts and doesn’t make landfall. Science says they didn’t properly predict the hurricanes behavior or the weather around it changed in a way that made sense in hindsight or maybe they did see this outcome but stated it had a 1 out of 10 chance of happening and the last minute shift beat the odds. But beyond that, why did the weather change? Why did the statistically unlikely result occur? That’s faith. That’s the miracle.

The existence of a scientific answer does not preclude the miracle and a miracle does not preclude the existence of a scientific explanation. Both can occur together, and often do.

What your describing seems more like divine intervention not necessarily a miracle. A miracle can’t be explained by scientific logic, it defies the laws of science as the definition I provided indicates. I was referring to miracles that took place in the Bible like people walking on water, the blind being healed, paralyzed able to walk, or the dead being brought back to life 3 days later with no medical treatment or procedures. Those are actual miracles that can’t be explained by science and contradict the laws of science. The whole point of a miracle was to perform an impossible feat or task in order to show God’s glory and power, not just His cleverness and knowledge of science.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

What your describing seems more like divine intervention not necessarily a miracle. A miracle can’t be explained by scientific logic, it defies the laws of science as the definition I provided indicates. I was referring to miracles that took place in the Bible like people walking on water, the blind being healed, paralyzed able to walk, or the dead being brought back to life 3 days later with no medical treatment or procedures. Those are actual miracles that can’t be explained by science and contradict the laws of science. The whole point of a miracle was to perform an impossible feat or task in order to show God’s glory and power, not just His cleverness and knowledge of science.

And here is where I say again that because one’s definition of a miracle varies and is entirely subjective, one person’s “divine intervention non-miracle” is another person’s miracle.

Regardless, blind people seeing again, paralyzed walking again, or even the dead coming back to life are all easily explained by science. Head injuries, illnesses, even some neurological challenges result in blindness that, when they resolve, resolve the blindness. Same with paralysis, some of which can be self-correcting after an associated injury or illness has been healed. Even correction of malnutrition or inadequate water can help alleviate symptoms. Coming back seemingly from the dead happens even now… A coma, a vegetative state, even cardiac but not brain death has led to people being declared dead only for them to “come back to life” at a funeral, a mortician, etc. It’s not impossible to think that in a culture where the nuances of brain vs cardiac death, comas, and vegetative states would assume somebody dead when they weren’t. A lack of scientific understanding, medical knowledge, added to the statistical improbability of such occurring made it appear like a miracle when it happened, but that doesn’t erase that those all have scientific solutions to them.

The fact that the occurrences exist and they occurred despite their rarity and statistical improbability is what the miracle is, not the act itself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And here is where I say again that because one’s definition of a miracle varies and is entirely subjective, one person’s “divine intervention non-miracle” is another person’s miracle.

Regardless, blind people seeing again, paralyzed walking again, or even the dead coming back to life are all easily explained by science. Head injuries, illnesses, even some neurological challenges result in blindness that, when they resolve, resolve the blindness. Same with paralysis, some of which can be self-correcting after an associated injury or illness has been healed. Even correction of malnutrition or inadequate water can help alleviate symptoms. Coming back seemingly from the dead happens even now… A coma, a vegetative state, even cardiac but not brain death has led to people being declared dead only for them to “come back to life” at a funeral, a mortician, etc. It’s not impossible to think that in a culture where the nuances of brain vs cardiac death, comas, and vegetative states would assume somebody dead when they weren’t. A lack of scientific understanding, medical knowledge, added to the statistical improbability of such occurring made it appear like a miracle when it happened, but that doesn’t erase that those all have scientific solutions to them.

The fact that the occurrences exist and they occurred despite their rarity and statistical improbability is what the miracle is, not the act itself.

So Lazarus wasn’t dead? Your saying he didn’t die and was not brought back to life 3 days later by Jesus. What about Jesus? He didn’t really die on the cross for our sins He went into a coma for our sins and He wasn’t really resurrected? And those people who were claimed to be healed by Jesus and the apostles weren’t really healed by them their illnesses just coincidentally vanished precisely when they made an attempt to heal them? This doesn’t sound like a person who actually believes in miracles.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So Lazarus wasn’t dead? Your saying he didn’t die and was not brought back to life 3 days later by Jesus. What about Jesus? He didn’t really die on the cross for our sins He went into a coma for our sins and He wasn’t really resurrected? And those people who were claimed to be healed by Jesus and the apostles weren’t really healed by them their illnesses just coincidentally vanished precisely when they made an attempt to heal them? This doesn’t sound like a person who actually believes in miracles.

While I appreciate the claim to know what I believe better than I do, I’m stating that there are scientific explanations for miracle and one doesn’t preclude the other. Jesus died and was resurrected, but a scientific perspective there is an explanation for how it could have happened.

 

[BNR32FAN]

While I appreciate the claim to know what I believe better than I do, I’m stating that there are scientific explanations for miracle and one doesn’t preclude the other. Jesus died and was resurrected, but a scientific perspective there is an explanation for how it could have happened.

Bless you friend, may I ask why you believe there must or should be a scientific explanation for Christ’s resurrection?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Bless you friend, may I ask why you believe there must or should be a scientific explanation for Christ’s resurrection?

I don’t think there must be. I think there can be.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don’t think there must be. I think there can be.

So your saying there might be or there might not be? Either choice is possible?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So your saying there might be or there might not be? Either choice is possible?

I’m saying that both miracles and science can co-exist together.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m saying that both miracles and science can co-exist together.

By definition that’s a contradiction in terms. Those two words are complete polar opposites.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

By definition that’s a contradiction in terms. Those two words are complete polar opposites.

According to you, maybe, but not according to either faith or science. And you believe in a faith that says that science and faith are incompatible, you may want to ask a few questions of your faith since anybody who asks you deny provable fact or risk harming your faithfulness is a big ol’ red flag.

 

[BNR32FAN]

According to you, maybe, but not according to either faith or science. And you believe in a faith that says that science and faith are incompatible, you may want to ask a few questions of your faith since anybody who asks you deny provable fact or risk harming your faithfulness is a big ol’ red flag.

Not according to me according to the definition of the word miracle. We can’t just make up whatever definition that suits us for the word miracle, it’s already been established. Can you name one miracle that’s a proven fact? Proof isn’t necessary to have faith. The Bible is a supernatural, spiritual book that’s filled with unexplainable miracles that can’t be explained by science and they’re not supposed to be. If they were explainable by science then they wouldn’t have the intended effect they were intended to have.

 

[Kylie]

Yes. Do you?

It doesn't seem like it. Because if you did, I doubt you would claim that an unfalsifiable claim means that one has to recant some claim because it doesn't contradict a particular viewpoint. That's the whole point of being unfalsifiable - if it contradicted some claim, then it would be falsifiable!

No, we were not having a discussion about Catholic beliefs. You brought up the notion that Christians are not scientific. I think you resorted to the 2nd rule in the "Atheist's Handbook" when losing in a debate with Christians. "Call them Christians!".

Yes, we were having a discussion about Catholic beliefs, since you brought them up in post 147 when you asked me if I could cite a Catholic Article of Faith that is contradicted by science. Prior to that I had not mentioned Catholicism at all in this thread.

Look up "mortis". You'll see it presumes the condition noted is one "of death".

So you are saying that we should not assume that a person is dead until the rich the fifth stage, despite the fact that you also admit that the stages BEFORE that also indicate death.

Did you play the "Black Knight in the Monty Python skit of the same name?

Yes, you may exit the discussion with your remaining body parts.View attachment 318135

Very well, please tell me where I claimed that a embryo/fetus is a disease.

 

[Kylie]

Yes. But I also believe what constitutes a miracle is both subjective and can be proven by science.

First of all, I'd say that the two ideas contradict each other. If it can be shown by science, then it must be objective.

Secondly, if it can be explained by science, then it doesn't require the intervention of God to make it happen - and in that case, why call it a miracle?