Abortion is wrong

Jonathan Walkerin

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Is your argument that since rape happens the fetus is fair game to be terminated? Would that not be delivering an evil for an evil?

The argument was that some posters in this thread believe that woman always has a choice of not getting pregnant by abstaining from the sex.

This is clearly not the case. There are plenty of places worldwide where women has little or no say in her procreation due to different societal, economic or religious factors and then as seen here there are always cases of just straight rape as a crime.

So the idea that woman have total control of their procreation around the world is laughable.
 
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redleghunter

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So the idea that woman have total control of their procreation around the world is laughable.
Around the world is a broad brush. Most of those countries you might be thinking of abortion is illegal and most women even if it was illegal would not seek an abortion.

Even in the US by the stats I provided earlier, instances of seeking an abortion due to rape is a very low percentage.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Around the world is a broad brush. Most of those countries you might be thinking of abortion is illegal and most women even if it was illegal would not seek an abortion.

Around the world is where most of the people live instead of US. Funny that. Also nobody is saying that majority of the women would seek an abortion in Afgani or Pakistan hinterlands for the simple reason they would have as much freedom to do that as they have for deciding whatever to get pregnant in the first place - which is practically none.
 
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SPF

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Around the world is where most of the people live instead of US. Funny that. Also nobody is saying that majority of the women would seek an abortion in Afgani or Pakistan hinterlands for the simple reason they would have as much freedom to do that as they have for deciding whatever to get pregnant in the first place - which is practically none.
Which of course the reality of anyone's situation anywhere at any time in any culture plays no role at all what-so-ever upon the morality of abortion.

The morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the nature of the life inside the womb. It has absolutely nothing to do with the how in which a new human being comes into existence.
 
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Tab Malfa

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THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ABORTION

The Bible contains no texts about abortion. Most of the so-called “prooftexts” state nothing about personhood at conception, but are a testament to God’s divine foreknowledge. For example: One of the most popular texts to support the anti-abortion movement is Jeremiah 1:5, which states: “Before I formed you in your mother’s womb, I knew you,” (NIV). The operative word in the previously quoted text, and others like it, is “BEFORE.” God knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived, which means God knew him before he even existed. It is impossible for a mortal to know someone before he or she even exists, but God has divine foreknowledge. He can know a nonexistent person because the person must exist as a thought in his mind before he creates him or her. Scriptures like the above are referring to God’s predetermined thought process and indicate nothing as to when life actually begins.

The Bible does not treat a fertilized egg or an unborn fetus as a person. For example, Exodus 21:22-25 states:

When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe (RSV).


The translation of the Revised Standard Version most accurately translates the ancient Hebrew text according to the mindset of the ancient Hebrews. In the case of killing a child, a baby or an adult, there was more than a fine exacted. Capital punishment was required (the taking of an innocent life required the death penalty, (Exodus 21:12). Norman I. Geisler, well known evangelical theologian, has stated, “An unborn baby is not fully human—according to the law of Moses, the killing of an unborn baby is not considered a capital offense” (Norman I. Geisler, Ethics: Alternatives and Issues. Academic Books, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing: 1971 p. 218ff).


About 300 BC, Ancient Hebrew scholars translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek. The translation is called the Septuagint (LXX). It was integral to the understanding of the Hebrew text and it was indispensable in producing the English translations. Almost all of Old Testament Scriptures quoted in the New Testament are quotations from the Septuagint. Exodus 21:22-25 of the Septuagint reads:

And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


This text reveals how the ancient Jews understood the text. The Revised Standard Version expresses it more clearly. A fertilized egg is not a person and there is no such thing as a single cell human being. A person is more than a single cell and the right combination of DNA. By definition, a human being is multicellular; therefore, by definition a single-celled zygote is not a human being. If the anti-abortion movement were consistent, it would have to maintain that a seed is a flower and a chicken egg is a chicken. But a seed is not a flower and a chicken egg is not a chicken, likewise, a single-celled zygote is not a human being. If life is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11), then life does not begin at conception, because an embryo does not begin to develop blood until the end of the third week after fertilization. The heart does not begin to develop until the sixth week. But even if life is in the blood, personhood is not in the blood; otherwise, animals would be considered persons, because they have blood as well. Leviticus 17:11 (cf. Genesis 9:3-6) refers to animal blood, so the life that is in the blood is in animal blood and was considered by the ancient people to be sacred. Remember that the next time you eat a juicy steak, because you will be eating someone’s life according to Fundamentalists.


The ancient Jews believed that an unborn person did not become a person until it took its first breath, based on Genesis 2:7 and Exodus 21:22 (Mishna: Oholot 7, 6). The early Christians, being Jews, obviously held the same beliefs as their Hebrew instructors, who taught them when they were children.


Throughout Christian history, the unanimous view of the Christian Church was pro-choice, NOT pro-life. Early American Christians allowed abortion up until the fifth month. The Christian church was pro-choice until the 1980s when two men embarked on a national campaign to dupe Christians into believing that abortion was a violation of the Christian Scriptures (James C. Mohr. Abortion in America. Oxford University Press, Oxford, London: 1978).


But even if you incorrectly esteem abortion as murder, poverty kills more than abortion. The Biblical priority is social justice and peace not abortion. Republicans only pay lip-service to abortion because they know they can easily gain political support by doing so. To deem a fertilized egg as a person cannot empirically be proven. It is a philosophical or religious opinion. To attempt to use the coercive power of the state to force people to comply with one’s religious opinion is a blatant contradiction to true, biblical Christianity. It is highly immoral and it is in fact religious tyranny. It is a Christianized form of Sharia law.


Abortion laws put the responsibility on those who choose or not choose to have an abortion. The victims of Republican policies have no choice when wars, economic crises, poverty, social injustice and economic oppression are thrust upon them. Republicans are the wolves in sheep’s clothing that Jesus warned us about (Matt. 7:15; Acts 20:30-31, etc.).


Tab Malfa August 31, 2017



https://www.amazon.com/Thy-Kingdom-Come-Religious-Threatens/dp/0465005209

https://www.amazon.com/Abortion-America-Origins-Evolution-National/dp/0195026160

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Fundamentalism-Evangelicalism-George-Marsden/dp/0802805396

The Fetus in Jewish Law | My Jewish Learning



Ohalot, Chapter 7, Mishnah 6



http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu...vTSe17eF4pJ7vlISxck_4uhkq1I-TNVnCGNTpfwI4r_DQ
 
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SPF

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Good morning Tab! Thanks for the post! I was wondering if you could clarify your position on abortion. You said:
The ancient Jews believed that an unborn person did not become a person until it took its first breath,
In all your writing you didn't actually say what your position was. I'm going to assume that your position is that human beings don't receive their soul until they take their first breath. Is that correct? If so, does that mean you don't believe human beings become morally valuable until they take their first breath? If that is also the case, wouldn't that therefore mean there would be nothing morally wrong with abortions up until the babies first breath?

For the rest of my post, I'm going to start by keeping it at the 40,000 foot level. We've brought up the Exodus passage ad nauseam on this forum and your interpretation is actually wrong. Exodus 21 treats the unborn on the same moral level as the born. You need to actually stick with the original language in passages when seeking to do proper interpretation. The word miscarriage is not the word used in the original language.

Secondly, while you are correct that there are no explicit Scriptures in the Bible about abortion, there don't need to be for us to come to a proper theological understanding of the morality of abortion.

Thanks to advancements in science, it is actually settled as to when a new human being comes into existence - it's at fertilization. Again, I've provided references in ad nauseam to support and demonstrate this, I can do so for you if necessary. But the current scientific understanding is that a new human being, with its own unique DNA, it's own unique identity comes into existence at fertilization. Ok, I take the reference comment back, here are just two that refute your claim that
a single-celled zygote is not a human being.
“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.” Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

If you disagree with the current scientific understanding of human development, I welcome you to provide actual references. I'll be honest, nobody is going to take your subjective (I assume uneducated) opinion at face value.

Thus, we know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. But is a human being morally valuable? That's the real question at this point. Are we morally valuable? If so, are we morally valuable from our beginning, or do we somehow grow into our moral worth and value?

Scripture tells us that human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. If we combine this fact with the scientific fact that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization - then the obvious conclusion is that human beings are morally valuable from fertilization.

I notice you avoided acknowledging Luke 1, where we are explicitly told in Scripture that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb!

Luke 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

That's a pretty powerful verse. Would you actually be willing to hold the position that a non-human being was filled with the Holy Spirit? The story goes on to show John the Baptist testifying about Christ by "leaping for joy" while in the womb. Do you think a non-human being was experiencing the emotion of joy?

No, I suspect we can agree that John the Baptist was indeed a morally valuable human being who was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

As far as I know in Scripture there are 0 examples of a living human being without a soul. And this is essentially your position. You're arguing that there are living human beings without souls. I don't see that ever happening in Scripture.
 
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Tab Malfa

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Hi SPF, Thank you for your response; however, it is difficult to believe that you actually read my post in entirety. My specialty area is in the Biblical languages. I have been reading the Bible in its original languages for almost forty years now, and I can tell you that your interpretation is dead wrong. When I was in seminary for six years, I was a Bidington Scholar in which I was paid to assist the language professors in teaching the Biblical languages. You did not even make an attempt to refute my exegetical argument. So, read my post and get back to me with some type of argument so that I can respond adequately. Also read the article on the last link of my post by Thomas F. McDaniel. The newer translations that contradict translations like the RSV have not changed the text because of any advances in archaeological or linguistic discoveries. They changed them for political reasons. I agree with your statement that life begins with a single cell, but that does not mean that the single cell is a human being and it does not mean that it is a person. It is a potential person. Ensoulment does not take place at conception. The oldest version of the OT and the original Bible of the first Christians explicitly indicates that a fetus is not considered a full human being until it is fully formed. This view became the official view of the Christian church until 1869 for Catholics and the 1980s for Protestants. Protestants were duped into believing otherwise by political propagandists. Catholics changed their view, because prohibiting abortion supported their theology regarding the Blessed Mother. The ancient Aramaic translation of the OT, which is about 1000 years older than the corrupt and anti-Christian Masoretic Text, agrees with the RSV. Scholars throughout history even to the present time agree that the Aramaic translation is an accurate translation of the original Pentateuch. The LXX, which predates the Masoretic Text by approximately 1300 years, is in many cases more accurate than the Masoretic Text. The LXX reveals how the ancient Hebrews (and later the ancient Christians) understood Exodus 21:22-25. Almost all the OT quotations in the NT are taken from the LXX, and the LXX was the original Bible of the first Christians and continued to be so for centuries. It is the oldest extant OT. The exegetical fallacy that you are committing is that you are ignoring the historical context of the passage and discarding the perspective of the original author and the original audience of the text. Get back to me when you can, and we will see how well you actually know ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu...vTSe17eF4pJ7vlISxck_4uhkq1I-TNVnCGNTpfwI4r_DQ
 
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SPF

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Hi Tab, you're going to need to use paragraph breaks if we are to continue to dialogue. It's too hard to follow without them. Also, you said a lot, and there is a lot to respond to. Before dealing with the Exodus passage though, I think there are more fundamental issues that need to be addressed.
I agree with your statement that life begins with a single cell, but that does not mean that the single cell is a human being and it does not mean that it is a person. It is a potential person. Ensoulment does not take place at conception.
There are a lot of incorrect assumptions in this that require some unpacking. First, biologically, a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. This is established scientific fact. Here are some citations for you. If you disagree, I'll need you to provide some references.

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.” Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

I could go on, but this post is already going to be too long. The scientific fact of how life works is that a new, unique human being comes into existence at fertilization. The developmental period of a human being is roughly 25 years, beginning at fertilization. Yet at no point during our development are we not an actual human being. That's the science.

You also attempt to make the philosophical distinction between a human being and a human person. This is a tactic of many pro-choice advocates, and it fails. Because the science is clear that a new human being exists at fertilization, often times people will attempt to make a distinction between a human being and a human person, asserting that only human persons possess moral worth and value.

But this argument is entirely subjective and completely arbitrary. There is no way to objectively make a distinction between a human being and a human person. You can see this by the myriad of lines drawn that differ each time someone tries to make the argument. Some draw the line at first trimester, others at, second trimester, third trimester, brain activity, ability to feel pain, heartbeat, blood, birth, breath, etc... The point being that each line is subjective and indefensible.

Either human beings are inherently morally valuable or we are not.

The above discussion points could easily be held with anyone from any religious, or lack or religious background. But your final point about ensoulment is where the discussion becomes more of an "in house" discussion.

I think Luke 1 is a very strong testimony to the reality that ensoulment certainly happens prior to birth, do you not? John the Baptist, while still in his mother's womb was filled with the Holy Spirit. Are you prepared to say that John the Baptist was not a living human being, created in the image of God, and possessing a soul when he was filled with the Holy Spirit?
 
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Tab Malfa

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First of all, you talk as though the entire scientific community agrees with your opinion, which it does not. Your position is not a scientific fact. You are promoting your metaphysical or religious opinion under the guise of science. Just because the single cell has a certain combination of DNA does not mean it is a person. It means it is a human cell with human DNA. A cell that contains the design to become a human being is not yet a human being, but it has the potential to become one. Just because you quote a scientist that holds the same view that you do because of his religious predilections does not mean it is scientific. Science cannot determine when a soul enters a fetus. Once science tries to do such, it has stepped outside the realm of science and into the realm of metaphysics where science has no authority. Your DNA argument is reduced to absurdity when you take into consideration that you could take a cell out of your arm or a piece of dandruff from your head and note that it has all your unique DNA, but it is not you and it is not a human being. Furthermore, you could take either of those items and clone another person from them and that clone would have the same DNA as you but it would be an entirely different person. Is it not a person because it does not have its own unique DNA?

The fact is that genetic uniqueness can be shared by multiple individuals particularly identical twins. The irrefutable fact is that science cannot determine when someone actually becomes a person, which renders all your citations irrelevant.


Neuroscience equates the zygote-embryo-fetus to a sea slug until about 26 to 32 weeks when it begins to emit brainwaves that resemble human brainwaves. Some argue that this does not really prove the fetus is human because they are unconscious brainwaves and do not actually become human until a much later stage of development. Your single cell zygote does not have any of the vital organs including a brain. It cannot think, reason or communicate and this is the natural condition of the zygote. It is not like it suffered some injury to make it like that. Your texts say it "begins life as a single cell" not human and not a person but a cell. A single cell is not a person and it is not a human being--that is just common sense. You can say the same thing about animals. Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on the issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim, so we must give the benefit of the doubt to women, who are indisputable human beings with rights.




“Both the sperm and the egg cells should individually be considered to be units of life in the same respect as any other single or multicellular organism. Thus, neither the union of two gametes nor at any developmental point thereafter should be designated as the beginning of new life.” Scott F. Gilbert’s site on Developmental Biology: Developmental Biology: http://www.devbio.com.


“However, because individuality is not certain until implantation is complete, and because individuality is a necessary condition of personhood, the zygote is not yet a human person. Ford 1988; Shannon & Walter 1990; McCormick 1991.


“Therefore, the moment that a developing fetus first exhibits an EEG pattern consistent with that of a mature brain is indicative of the beginning of human life. It is from this point and onward during development that the fetus is capable of the type of mental activity associated with humanity. Morowitz and Trefil 1992. Also see Gazzaniga, Michael S. THE ETHICAL BRAIN. Harper Perennial 2006.


“Science does not offer a hard and fast answer to the question of when human life begins, and there is no firm consensus among scientists’ opinions. Indeed, the question ‘When does human life begin?’ tends to blur the lines between biology and social mores, since inherit within it is the idea of a “person,” which is both a biological and a social category. Biology might be better able to give information in answer to the question ‘When in the process of conception and gestation does an organism reach enough individualization to be considered a separate organism?’
But even here, there is no clear-cut consensus, and some scientists argue that the process of becoming human is gradual, and there is no specific point at which a nonhuman entity suddenly becomes human.” Gilbert, Scott F.; Tyler, Anna L.; Zackin, Emily J. BIOETHICS: AND THE NEW EMBRYOLOGY. Sinauer Associates Inc. Sunderland, MA 2006, pages 40-41.

Well obviously when John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit, it would have been after the 26-32 week period, and it is noteworthy that that is when he leaped in the womb (approximately 6 months). The court uses the same standard when determining when someone is legally dead and when it is legal to take someone off life-support. Also Elizabeth's pregnancy was a supernatural pregnancy and cannot be compared to an organic pregnancy.

Regarding Exodus 21:22-25, the main verb is וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ . The woman is the direct object of that verb. The clause: וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון obviously refers to the woman, because she is the one who is the direct object of the main verb. The unborn children who are expelled from the womb are an injury suffered by the woman, who is the object of the violence. This view is valid only if we accept the later definition of the word אָסֹ֑ון ;otherwise, the older meaning of the word changes the context. But when reading the text with the definition of the later meaning, the RSV is the accurate translation.


The Bible says that "Life is in the blood." If life is in the blood, then life does not begin at conception, because the embryo does not develop blood until the third week after fertilization.
 
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SPF

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Most attempts to argue against abortion from biblical texts are misdirected. In the absence of specific prohibitions of abortion in the Scripture, Christian pro-lifers quote equivocal passages.

Some citations use personal pronouns to describe the unborn, but many of these are in poetry texts, so the conclusion is not entirely convincing. God's personal acquaintance with the unborn can be explained by His omniscience. After all, some texts make it clear that God "knows" us even before we're conceived.

One text, however, is strong. Exodus 21:22-25 is usually used to argue that the Bible assigns a lower value to the unborn than to other humans. Rabbis and Jewish thinkers I've discussed this point with on the radio have been especially adamant--even irate. I think the evidence shows, though, that Moses taught just the opposite. If I'm right, we have a powerful argument for the value Scripture puts on the life of the unborn.

Dead or Alive?

The New American Standard Bible (NASB) renders Exodus 21:22-25 this way:

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.[1]

This translation suggests that if a miscarriage takes place and the child is lost, the antagonists are simply fined, but if the mother dies in the scuffle, then the penalty is "life for life." In the Torah, it seems, the unborn is not considered fully human.

Theologian Millard Erickson notes that in this view, "the lex talionis [life for life] is applied only if the mother is harmed. On this basis it is concluded that the fetus was not considered a soul or a person, and thus is not to be thought of as fully human."[2]

At issue is the phrase translated "she has a miscarriage." There is an assumption made about this word that is crucial. In English, the word "miscarriage" implies the death of the child. Webster's New World Dictionary defines miscarriage as, "The expulsion of the fetus from the womb before it is sufficiently developed to survive."[3] In the struggle, the child is aborted, and so a fine is levied.

Here's the crux of the issue: Does the Hebrew word carry the same meaning? Is it correct to presume that the miscarriage of Exodus 21:22 produces a dead child, just like an abortion? This is the single most important question that needs to be answered here. If it does, the English word "miscarriage" is the right choice. If it does not, then the picture changes dramatically.

Are we justified in assuming that the child is dead? The answer is in the original language. There's a history of how these words are used in the Hebrew Bible, and that history is important. Let's look at it.

Yeled and Yasa

A word's meaning in any language is determined in two steps. We learn a word's range of meaning--its possible definitions--inductively by examining its general usage. We learn its specific meaning within that range by the immediate context.

The relevant phrase in the passage, "...she has a miscarriage...," reads w?yase û ye ladêhâ in the Hebrew. It's a combination of a Hebrew noun, yeled, and a verb, yasa, and literally means "the child comes forth." The NASB makes note of this literal rendering in the margin.

The Hebrew noun translated "child" in this passage is yeled[4] (yeladim in the plural), and means "child, son, boy, or youth."[5] It comes from the primary root word yalad,[6] meaning "to bear, bring forth, or beget." In the NASB yalad is translated "childbirth" 10 times, some form of "gave birth" over 50 times, and either "bore," "born," or "borne" 180 times.

The verb yasa[7] is a primary, primitive root that means "to go or come out." It is used over a thousand times in the Hebrew Scriptures and has been translated 165 different ways in the NASB--escape, exported, go forth, proceed, take out, to name a few. This gives us a rich source for exegetical comparison. It's translated with some form of "coming out" (e.g., "comes out," "came out," etc.) 103 times, and some form of "going" 445 times.

What's most interesting is to see how frequently yasa refers to the emergence of a living thing:

Genesis 1:24 "Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so."

Genesis 8:17 [to Noah] "Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth...."

Genesis 15:4 "This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body...."

Genesis 25:25-26 "Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau. And afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob."

1 Kings 8:19 "Nevertheless you shall not build the house, but your son who shall be born to you, he shall build the house for My name."

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

2 Kings 20:18 "And some of your sons who shall issue from you, whom you shall beget, shall be taken away; and they shall become officials in the palace of the king of Babylon."

As you can see, it's common for yasa to describe the "coming forth" of something living, frequently a child. There is only one time yasa is clearly used for a dead child. Numbers 12:12 says, "Oh, do not let her be like one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes from his mother's womb!"

Note here, that we don't infer the child's death from the word yasa, but from explicit statements in the context. This is a still-birth, not a miscarriage. The child is dead before the birth ("whose flesh is half eaten away"), and doesn't die as a result of the untimely delivery, as in a miscarriage.

Yasa is used 1,061 times in the Hebrew Bible. It is never translated "miscarriage" in any other case. Why should the Exodus passage be any different?

Clues from the Context

This inductive analysis shows us something important: Nothing about the word yasa implies the death of the child. The context may give us this information, as in Numbers 12:12, but the word itself does not.

This leads us to our next question: What in the context justifies our assumption that the child that "comes forth" is dead? The answer is, nothing does. There is no indication anywhere in the verse that a fine is assessed for a miscarriage and a more severe penalty is assessed for harming the mother.

This becomes immediately clear when the Hebrew words are translated in their normal, conventional way (the word "further" in the NASB is not in the original):

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that the child comes forth, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life...."
The text seems to require a fine for the premature birth, but injury to either of the parties involved incurs a more severe punishment.[8] Millard Erickson notes that "there is no specification as to who must be harmed for the lex talionis [life for life] to come into effect. Whether the mother or the child, the principle applies."[9]

Gleason Archer, Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, concludes:

"There is no ambiguity here, whatever. What is required is that if there should be an injury either to the mother or to her children, the injury shall be avenged by a like injury to the assailant. If it involves the life (nepes) of the premature baby, then the assailant shall pay for it with his life. There is no second-class status attached to the fetus under this rule; he is avenged just as if he were a normally delivered child or an older person: life for life. Or if the injury is less, but not serious enough to involve inflicting a like injury on the offender, then he may offer compensation in monetary damages..."[10]
Two Rejoinders

Two further objections need to be dealt with. First, if this is a premature birth and not a miscarriage, why the fine?

Babies born prematurely require special care. Because their prenatal development has been interrupted, they are especially prone to difficulty. Pre-term babies often can't breast feed, and there can be respiratory problems leading to permanent brain damage. The fine represents reimbursement for the expense of an untimely birth, and punitive damages for the serious trauma.

Anyway, even if the fine was for the miscarriage, this wouldn't prove the child was less than human. A few verses later (v. 32), Moses imposes a fine for the death of a slave, but this doesn't mean the slave is sub-human.

Second, was this the only word that could be used to indicate a miscarriage? No. Two other words were available to convey this particular meaning, if that's what the writer had in mind: nepel and sakal. These are used seven times in the Hebrew text.

The noun nepel[11] means "miscarriage" or "abortion," and is used three times:

Job 3:16 "Or like a miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light."

Eccl. 6:3-4 "If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, 'Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity.'"

Psalms 58:8 "Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along, like the miscarriages of a woman which never see the sun."

The verb sakal[12] means "to be bereaved" and is used four times, including one time when it's actually translated "abort:"

Genesis 31:38 "These twenty years I have been with you; your ewes and your female goats have not miscarried, nor have I eaten the rams of your flocks."

Exodus 23:26 "There shall be no one miscarrying or barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days."

Hosea 9:14 "Give them, O Lord-- what wilt Thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts."

Job 21:10 "His ox mates without fail; his cow calves and does not abort."

Moses had words in his vocabulary that literally meant abortion or miscarriage, but he didn't use them in Exodus 21:22. Instead, he chose the same word he used in many other places to signify a living child being brought forth.

Yasa doesn't mean miscarriage in the sense we think of that word. Instead, the combination of yeled with yasa suggests a living child coming forth from the womb. Nowhere else is this word ever translated "miscarriage." Why? Because the word doesn't mean the baby is still-born. It simply means the child comes out.

Three Questions

When someone raises this issue with you, ask these three questions.

First, why presume the child is dead? Though the English word "miscarriage" entails this notion, nothing in the Hebrew wording suggests it. Yasa doesn't mean miscarriage; it means "to come forth." The word itself never suggests death.[13] In fact, the word generally implies the opposite: live birth. If it's never translated elsewhere as miscarriage, why translate it that way here?

Second, what in the context itself implies the death of the child? There's nothing that does, nothing at all. The fine does not necessarily mean the child is dead, and even if it did this wouldn't indicate that the child wasn't fully human (as in the case of the slave in v. 32).

Third, ancient Hebrew had a specific word for miscarriage. It was used in other passages. Why not here? Because Moses didn't mean miscarriage. When his words are simply taken at face value, there is no confusion at all. The verse is clear and straight-forward. Everything falls into place.

Regardless of the translation, it's clear that killing the child--and the text does refer to the unborn as a child--is a criminal act. There is no justification for abortion-on-demand from the Torah. Instead, we have a reasonable--even powerful--argument that God views the unborn as valuable as any other human being.

What Exodus 21:22 Says about Abortion | Stand to Reason
 
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SPF

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The question of when human life begins has been answered in a variety of ways by different religious and philosophical traditions throughout the ages, leading many to conclude the question cannot be definitively answered. Yet what does science tell us about when life begins?[1] One of the basic insights of modern biology is that life is continuous, with living cells giving rise to new types of cells and, ultimately, to new individuals. Therefore, in considering the question of when a new human life begins, we must first address the more fundamental question of when a new cell, distinct from sperm and egg, comes into existence.

The scientific basis for distinguishing one cell type from another rests on two criteria: differences in what something is made of (its molecular composition) and differences in how the cell behaves. These two criteria are universally agreed upon and employed throughout the scientific enterprise. They are not “religious” beliefs or matters of personal opinion. They are objective, verifiable scientific criteria that determine precisely when a new cell type is formed.

Based on these criteria, the joining (or fusion) of sperm and egg clearly produces a new cell type, the zygote or one-cell embryo. Cell fusion is a well studied and very rapid event, occurring in less than a second. Because the zygote arises from the fusion of two different cells, it contains all the components of both sperm and egg, and therefore this new cell has a unique molecular composition that is distinct from either gamete. Thus the zygote that comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion meets the first scientific criterion for being a new cell type: its molecular make-up is clearly different from that of the cells that gave rise to it.

Subsequent to sperm-egg fusion, events rapidly occur in the zygote that do not normally occur in either sperm or egg. Within minutes, the zygote initiates a change in its internal state that will, over the next 30 minutes, block additional sperm from binding to the cell surface. Thus, the zygote acts immediately to oppose the function of the gametes from which it is derived; while the “goal” of both sperm and egg is to find each other and to fuse, the first act of the zygote is to prevent any further binding of sperm to the cell surface. Clearly, the zygote has entered into a new pattern of behavior, and therefore meets the second scientific criterion for being a new cell type.

What is the nature of the new cell that comes into existence upon sperm-egg fusion? Most importantly, is the zygote merely another human cell (like a liver cell or a skin cell) or is it something else? Just as science distinguishes between different types of cells, it also makes clear distinctions between cells and organisms. Both cells and organisms are alive, yet organisms exhibit unique characteristics that can reliably distinguish them from mere cells.[2]

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.” (Merriam-Webster) This definition stresses the interaction of parts in the context of a coordinated whole as the distinguishing feature of an organism. Organisms are “living beings.” Therefore, another name for a human organism is a “human being”; an entity that is a complete human, rather than a part of a human.

Human beings can be distinguished from human cells using the same kind of criteria scientists use to distinguish different cell types. A human being (i.e., a human organism) is composed of human parts (cells, proteins, RNA, DNA), yet it is different from a mere collection of cells because it has the characteristic molecular composition and behavior of an organism: it acts in an interdependent and coordinated manner to “carry on the activities of life.”

Human embryos from the one-cell (zygote) stage forward show uniquely integrated, organismal behavior that is unlike the behavior of mere human cells. The zygote produces increasingly complex tissues, structures and organs that work together in a coordinated way. Importantly, the cells, tissues and organs produced during development do not somehow “generate” the embryo (as if there were some unseen, mysterious “manufacturer” directing this process), they are produced by the embryo as it directs its own development to more mature stages of human life. This organized, coordinated behavior of the embryo is the defining characteristic of a human organism.

In contrast to human embryos, human cells are alive and, under some circumstances, they can assemble into primitive tissues and structures. Yet under no circumstances do mere human cells produce the kind of coordinated interactions necessary for building a fully integrated human body. They do not produce tissues in a coherent manner and do not organize them so as to sustain the life of the entity as a whole. They produce tumors; i.e., parts of the human body in a chaotic, disorganized manner. They behave like cells, not like organisms.

The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications)."

Dr. Condic is Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Adjunct Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Utah School of Medicine. She is also Director of Human Embryology instruction for the Medical School and of Human Neuroanatomy for the Dental School.
 
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Tab Malfa

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You did not acknowledge, address or refute my scientific argument. My conclusions still stand.

You did not acknowledge, address or refute my exegetical argument. Instead, you provided a lame word study of yasa and lemed that did not even distinguish between the various Hebrew word stems and did not compare the ancient Hebrew sister languages, which is an essential aspect of Old Testament Hebrew word study, although you did mention Numbers 12:12, which uses yasa to describe a dead fetus that “comes out” of a woman’s womb. The reason that yasa is not used more to describe incidents like Exodus 21:22-25 is that Exodus 21:22-25 is an isolated incident. There is no other passage in the Old Testament that is similar to it. All the “miscarriage” passages that you cited do not resemble the context of Exodus 21:22-25 in any way. You did not read the article by Thomas F. McDaniel that I provided, which sheds light on the word ason, which should have been the focus of the word study. The phrase in the Masoretic Text: וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון
is conceptually connected to the woman. It is not grammatically connected to the offspring; however, if we consider McDaniel’s valid conclusions about the word אָסֹ֑ון , the context is changed.


To answer the three questions that you pose:


Why presume the child is dead?


Because the literary context, word usage and historical context mandate that I do. When the older, more reliable and more accurate manuscripts are consulted, the meaning of the text is certain. The ancient Hebrews also understood the text to mean that the fetus came out dead, which is an essential aspect of Biblical exegesis. If you ignore the perspective of the original audience, you will only impose your own twenty-first century view on the text, which is exactly what you have done. You have conducted eisegesis not exegesis.


What in the context itself implies the death of the child?


The language is much more explicit in the more accurate manuscripts. In the Masoretic text (which is the only manuscript that you consulted), the text is a little awkward, but if you adhere to the grammar and the conceptual thread, the meaning is still there as I argued above, which you ignored. Who is the direct object of the violence? Who is the direct object of the main verb? What did the direct object of the violence suffer? Also, many of the laws of Israel’s neighbors in the ancient Near East were very similar to the Mosaic Law, and some required a fine for a dead fetus under the same exact circumstances described in Exodus 21:22-25.

The word miscarriage was not used in Exodus 21:22-25, because it did not fit the context. Yasa was the more graphic word. None of the passages in the Old Testament that use the word for miscarriage resemble the situation described in Exodus 21:22-25. Context is king and you have ignored the context.



Read Thomas F. McDaniel’s article here:


http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu...vTSe17eF4pJ7vlISxck_4uhkq1I-TNVnCGNTpfwI4r_DQ


Read an article on the LXX compared with the Masoretic Text here:

Masoretic Text vs. Original Hebrew · Preachers Institute
 
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SPF

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You did not acknowledge, address or refute my scientific argument. My conclusions still stand.

You did not acknowledge, address or refute my exegetical argument. Instead, you provided a lame word study of yasa and lemed that did not even distinguish between the various Hebrew word stems and did not compare the ancient Hebrew sister languages, which is an essential aspect of Old Testament Hebrew word study, although you did mention Numbers 12:12, which uses yasa to describe a dead fetus that “comes out” of a woman’s womb. The reason that yasa is not used more to describe incidents like Exodus 21:22-25 is that Exodus 21:22-25 is an isolated incident. There is no other passage in the Old Testament that is similar to it. All the “miscarriage” passages that you cited do not resemble the context of Exodus 21:22-25 in any way. You did not read the article by Thomas F. McDaniel that I provided, which sheds light on the word ason, which should have been the focus of the word study. The phrase in the Masoretic Text: וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון
is conceptually connected to the woman. It is not grammatically connected to the offspring; however, if we consider McDaniel’s valid conclusions about the word אָסֹ֑ון , the context is changed.


To answer the three questions that you pose:


Why presume the child is dead?


Because the literary context, word usage and historical context mandate that I do. When the older, more reliable and more accurate manuscripts are consulted, the meaning of the text is certain. The ancient Hebrews also understood the text to mean that the fetus came out dead, which is an essential aspect of Biblical exegesis. If you ignore the perspective of the original audience, you will only impose your own twenty-first century view on the text, which is exactly what you have done. You have conducted eisegesis not exegesis.


What in the context itself implies the death of the child?


The language is much more explicit in the more accurate manuscripts. In the Masoretic text (which is the only manuscript that you consulted), the text is a little awkward, but if you adhere to the grammar and the conceptual thread, the meaning is still there as I argued above, which you ignored. Who is the direct object of the violence? Who is the direct object of the main verb? What did the direct object of the violence suffer? Also, many of the laws of Israel’s neighbors in the ancient Near East were very similar to the Mosaic Law, and some required a fine for a dead fetus under the same exact circumstances described in Exodus 21:22-25.

The word miscarriage was not used in Exodus 21:22-25, because it did not fit the context. Yasa was the more graphic word. None of the passages in the Old Testament that use the word for miscarriage resemble the situation described in Exodus 21:22-25. Context is king and you have ignored the context.



Read Thomas F. McDaniel’s article here:


http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/LXX_EXO_ 21_22-23.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1HW6nHr7hctPvTSe17eF4pJ7vlISxck_4uhkq1I-TNVnCGNTpfwI4r_DQ


Read an article on the LXX compared with the Masoretic Text here:

Masoretic Text vs. Original Hebrew · Preachers Institute
What would you say is the applicable take away from your interpretation of the passage? Would you promote abortion up until first breath? If so, that would mean you would support partial birth abortion, or even full birth abortion so long as the baby hasn't breathed.
 
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SkyWriting

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One case for abortion is that it is healthcare. But I ask you what part of sexual reproduction: fertilization, implantation, embryonic development and labour; is detrimental to the woman's health? In fact this is normal. If there was anything wrong with fertilization, or implantation, then you should seek healthcare. But to claim that a normal process of is detrimental to woman's health is obviously wrong. The second point some make is that pregnancy is a matter of inconvenience, because they didn't intend to get pregnant but only have sex. Regardless, it is a fact that one cannot get pregnant without having sex, and that sex is a means of procreation. It produces life, and this is how humans propagate.

My cousin and her wife have two boys in college who are half brothers.
They used the same reproduction clinics as any other couple uses.
 
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SkyWriting

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Men don't get pregnant and, outside of rapists, they do not force women to become pregnant. The choice lies with the woman whether to risk becoming pregnant or not. AFAIK there has been only one immaculate conception. In saying this I do not resolve men of responsibility for their actions . It is the man's choice to risk becoming a parent by his actions and that man is as responsible as the woman for the creation of the new life. The man, however, outside of a rapist, cannot force a women to allow him entry into her body , cannot insist that the woman have an abortion, cannot refuse to support a child the woman has decided to keep. The man's choices are limited to his participation in sexual congress while the woman has control over a all her choices and all the choices after that. As the one with the most choices, I think it is fair that the woman take the most responsibility for becoming pregnant or refraining from doing so. Unless one were to make the argument that women are somehow less inherently capable of being responsible than men, I cannot see how one could argue that it is not the case that the woman should consider it her responsibility to avoid being pregnant if she does not wish to be.

No protection is 100% effective.
Men do not always cooperate.
 
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grasping the after wind

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No protection is 100% effective.
Men do not always cooperate.

What is your point? How do the things you've mentioned in any way negate what I have posted?

You have mentioned a fact. "No protection is 100%" I assume you are speaking of birth control protections. There is however a way, baring rape, to be 100% protected from becoming pregnant when one has decided that one does not want to have a child. But even if one is determined to have sex while not wanting to have a child one ought at least be responsible enough to use the mostly effective, if not 100% guaranteed, methods of readily available and easily procured methods of birth control. Again baring rape a woman has complete control over whether she engages in sex or not and whether she takes precautions while doing so.


You also said men do not always cooperate and I am at a loss to understand what you mean by that. What does a man's cooperation have to do with a woman's being responsible. As long as we are not speaking of rape, a woman has absolute autonomy over her choice to have sex or not. Again, outside of rape,the only time a man's cooperation would enter into it is if the man decided to say no to having sex with the woman.
 
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Jamesone5

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I have watched the abortion debate ever since Falwell started his Moral Majority in the 1970s. Primarily because, my wife at the time and I had an abortion in the 1979. She died in a car accident in 1987, so I alone can speak up for that foolish decision both of us made 40 years ago.

What the so-called Christian Right have left out in these debates in the man's involvement as if the man is not responsible from conception onward. In fact all States mandate the a father only then becomes financially responsible IF a child is carried to term and is born. This factor [no doubt] creates a lot of need for abortions as it usually is about money and the father gets off the hook in his financial obligations by convincing his girlfriend to have the cheaper alternative of abortion. Then of course, the "evidence" of an adulterous affair is eliminated. Sad, but true.

Even though I was not a Christian Believer at the time of my wife's abortion, I have always felt my involvement in coming to that sad decision and have received Christ's forgiveness.
 
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Daniel C

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My cousin and her wife have two boys in college who are half brothers.
They used the same reproduction clinics as any other couple uses.


Not the greatest example you could have used because your cousin is an abomination to God.

It is a shameful thing to be a sodomite and they have been given over to a reprobate mind rejected by God for their vile affections. The heathen culture has legalized this child abuse of homosexuals raising children through unnatural ungodly methods. Are you going to tell me a child doesn't need a father and a mother? Are you going to tell me sodomites can raise children like a Godly couple can?

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

So how does your cousin and her ''wife'' get round this? Does one of them grow a beard and shave their head?


And yes, I am totally against abortion.
 
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SPF

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Not the greatest example you could have used because your cousin is an abomination to God.

It is a shameful thing to be a sodomite and they have been given over to a reprobate mind rejected by God for their vile affections. The heathen culture has legalized this child abuse of homosexuals raising children through unnatural ungodly methods. Are you going to tell me a child doesn't need a father and a mother? Are you going to tell me sodomites can raise children like a Godly couple can?

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

So how does your cousin and her ''wife'' get round this? Does one of them grow a beard and shave their head?


And yes, I am totally against abortion.
Did he say his cousin was a woman?
 
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