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Archivist

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One published when abortion was still illegal.
Here is the definition of "murder from Jacob's Law Dictionary (1783): "by murder at this day, we understand the wilful and felonious killing of any man whatsoever, upon malice aforethought."

I don't see the word "innocent" in there.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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As to my personal opinion, I follow the Jewish view which is that it begins with the first breath. You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.

Does this mean that it is morally acceptable to dismember or poison a perfectly formed unborn baby one minute before he/she takes his/her first breath?
 
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Does this mean that it is morally acceptable to dismember or poison a perfectly formed unborn baby one minute before he/she takes his/her first breath?

Our Supreme Court held that abortions after viability can be banned by states so long as an exception is allowed for the life or health of the pregnant woman. My understanding is that under Jewish law if it is a choice between the life of the pregnant woman or the life of the fetus up until the fetus takes its first breath you save the life of the pregnant woman. Do you have a problem with that?
 
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Nic Samojluk

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The pledge of Allegiance is not law. It is not relevant to Roe v Wade. Your interpretation of the rulership of God is not relevant to Roe v Wade.

You need to consider the religious heritage of our country. Please, watch the following video.

 
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Nic Samojluk

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The Bible is not clear on when the "soul", if such a thing even exists, enters the body.

There is no such thing as an independent from the body soul. According to the Bible Adam, the first human being, became a soul the moment he was created.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [Gensis 2:7]
 
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Nic Samojluk

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What makes you think there is such a thing as the wrong version of the Bible?

The Bible was not written in English, but rather In Hebrew and Greek. What we have are translations, and my preference is to rely on those translations that are closer to the original.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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But if you are ready to jump at the latest interpretation of the Bible does that mean that you are ready to give up the virgin birth myth? New versions have the verse that it was based upon as saying "the young woman will have a child" not "the virgin will have a child"

My belief in the virgin birth of Jesus is not based on the Old Testament, but rather in the Gospels which testify that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit before she had any sexual relations with Joseph.
 
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You need to consider the religious heritage of our country. Please, watch the following video.

Interesting video. However two of the three buildings discussed, the Supreme Court building and the National Archives building, only date to the 1930s. If you come up to Philadelphia to visit independence Hall, Congress Hall or Carpenter's Hall you will not find so many religious decorations in the buildings. BTW the words "under God" we're a relatively recent addition to the pledge. They were added in the 1950s. The original words of the pledge were simply "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
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PapaZoom

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So, since you're stating that the exec said it's up to the doctor and the pregnant woman, it's not a fact that PP has a policy to let the product of a failed abortion die.

And to be clear, everything I'm reading suggests that this is an exceedingly rare event.

A rare event. So a baby is born and deliberately killed and if it's a rare event, no big deal.
 
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redleghunter

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Gen. 2:7 tells us that Adam did not become a "living soul" until he took he first breath. Certainly, the fetus contains all the Potential for life, but it is not breathing on its own yet in the womb...

Adam is the Prototypical pattern for all human life
, and the human bodies of our entire race are based on him and contain the same raw materials [dust to dust]. It is also thru his blood that sin was communicated to all mankind, [Acts 17:25] and as Romans 5:14 tells us below; The second Adam [Jesus Christ] is of the same figure or "type"-[tupos] as the first Adam, so any attempt to separate us from Adam is unwise unless you want to question the perfection of the body of Christ in the same breath.

Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure [tupos] of him that was to come. [Christ]

The Big difference between the First and Second Adams is their blood, Adam's was sinful-Christ's was perfect. The realization of how it is perfect however provides great insight into our redemption. Since Christ was the product of the perfect sperm God created in Mary, his Blood was not stained with Adam's sin, which is a main reason why Christ can qualify as the perfect sacrifice for the sin of Mankind. No other human was ever conceived in this manner, which puts Christ in a class by himself, matching Adam's stature prior to his fall in Eden. We find more of this in Hebrews 2;

14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Jesus] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews tells us all other members of humanity are partakers of flesh and blood, but Jesus only took part of the same! He was a man of the flesh, "made like unto his brethren" but not of Adam's Blood! Evidence from the medical profession supports this because it shows that the blood comes from the male side which was carried in the perfect sperm God created in Mary. If this was not the case then Jesus died for nothing and all mankind remains un-redeemed! But we serve a Perfect Heavenly Father and we can see the perfect wisdom in His plan of redemption for Mankind, embodied in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ!

Since Adam did not become a "living soul" until he took he first breath, and he is the pattern for the physical life of all humanity, then it sets the standard for when life as a "living soul" begins. When God was forming Adam out of the ground he displayed all the "potential for life' that any fetus does, but he was not yet an autonomous life form because he was not breathing under his own power. So it is with the fetus who parasitically breathes off the host mother in the womb, until the newborn takes its first breath at birth.

Why else does the same verse [Gen. 2:7] I'm referencing contain the words "breath of Life"? Because God as the Source of all LIFE, is the One Who breathed it into Adam, which is also acknowledged in [Job 33:4].
This is a perfect link to [Levi 17:11] where the life of the flesh is in the Blood, because the blood carries the oxygen of the breath of life to all the cells of the human body. Anyone familiar with grade school biology knows this, and its just another piece of the puzzle that fits into God's ultimate plan of Redemption. This is not "my version" of the case but a clear depiction of the Scriptural record, with a view of the bigger medical picture included. Don't mess with God's Plan...

In Genesis God refers to each human life beginning at "begat" the fathering of a child. We call that conception in medical terms.

We also see in Leviticus 17 the life is in the blood of all creatures including humans who are made in the Image of God.

There's no dancing around God's design for procreation, which Adam and Eve did not experience.

Each one of these arguments from eisegesis of "it's not human until X time" have been soundly pounded to dust several times.

As a Christian, please stop wresting God's Written Word to fit a post modern rationalization to condone the premeditated murder of human life in the womb.
 
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redleghunter

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Does this mean that it is morally acceptable to dismember or poison a perfectly formed unborn baby one minute before he/she takes his/her first breath?

Good point.
 
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redleghunter

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Our Supreme Court held that abortions after viability can be banned by states so long as an exception is allowed for the life or health of the pregnant woman. My understanding is that under Jewish law if it is a choice between the life of the pregnant woman or the life of the fetus up until the fetus takes its first breath you save the life of the pregnant woman. Do you have a problem with that?

Which Jewish law? Torah? Don't think so.

I guess you could incorporate the interpretations of the same lawyers and scribes who denied our Lord.
 
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redleghunter

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There is no such thing as an independent from the body soul. According to the Bible Adam, the first human being, became a soul the moment he was created.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [Gensis 2:7]

Unfortunately too many in post modern society get their information from Hollywood. For example the pantheistic movie "Avatar."
 
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Subduction Zone

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There is no such thing as an independent from the body soul. According to the Bible Adam, the first human being, became a soul the moment he was created.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [Gensis 2:7]
There may not ever be a soul. Now that is your interpretation, but it is not supported by the Bible nor by tradition.
 
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redleghunter

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There may not ever be a soul. Now that is your interpretation, but it is not supported by the Bible nor by tradition.

He just gave you evidence from the TaNaKh.
 
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Subduction Zone

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My belief in the virgin birth of Jesus is not based on the Old Testament, but rather in the Gospels which testify that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit before she had any sexual relations with Joseph.
Yes, but the Gospels were "fixed" they were written to "fulfill prophecy". An incorrect interpretation of the OT led to false claim being made, and being caught with their pants down. Of course that is not the only evidence that the nativity stories have nothing to do with reality.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, but the Gospels were "fixed" they were written to "fulfill prophecy". An incorrect interpretation of the OT led to false claim being made, and being caught with their pants down. Of course that is not the only evidence that the nativity stories have nothing to do with reality.

Can't wait for your theological dissertation on the above.
 
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