Abortion 100% legal in Oregon, and 100% FREE for everyone!!!!

[Belk]

I added two more citations and can add as many as you want. How many do you need?

As I said, several thousand if you wish to establish that this is a standard practice by Canadian healthcare. I would also accept any sort of detailed studies where the results are published so they can be checked.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Saddens me beyond belief. Praying that hearts will be changed and no one will take advantage of this "opportunity" to kill their child.

People have been killing their um- born fetus. Before abortions ever were even legal. Why would they stop now.

 

[“Paisios”]

People have been killing their um- born fetus. Before abortions ever were even legal. Why wou!d they stop now.

They won't, but it still saddens me to see these babies killed.

 

[blackribbon]

Not this again. How many times is this misleading statistic going to be plastered on this board? about 10x more Americans go abroad for healthcare than visa versa

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Americans-travel-to-Canada-for-healthcare-and-vice-versa

Did you even read your reference? Americans buy prescriptions meds in Canada, not medical treatment in most cases. Most Canadian doctors won't treat Americans because their malpractice insurance won't cover non-Canadians.

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand about single payer medicine. It is in fact great...that is until you actually need significant medical treatment. Then it becomes rationed care. There is a reason why US is usually the place to go to get unusual treatments for rare diseases and that is because we still offer them. There will be no money available for orphan disease research when the government gets to decide if a disease is worth budgeting research money for to research. The money will go to the things that affect the most people...and no one will even hear of the expensive treatments (even if they work) because they will not be on the approved treatment lists.

 

[blackribbon]

As I said, several thousand if you wish to establish that this is a standard practice by Canadian healthcare. I would also accept any sort of detailed studies where the results are published so they can be checked.

So in other words, you are already convinced and have no interest in reality or facts. You are the one who asked for me to cite...I did. I am a nurse and I hope that single payer healthcare doesn't come in to affect in the US. All I can see is that quality hospital care will go down and we will have higher patient loads under any system like this. It is already bad enough. However, this thread is about abortions so I am done.

 

[Belk]

So in other words, you are already convinced and have no interest in reality or facts. You are the one who asked for me to cite...I did. I am a nurse and I hope that single payer healthcare doesn't come in to affect in the US. All I can see is that quality hospital care will go down and we will have higher patient loads under any system like this. It is already bad enough. However, this thread is about abortions so I am done.

Reality and facts are things that are demonstrable. If you are unable to demonstrate your claims they are not facts, they are opinions.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

They won't, but it still saddens me to see these babies killed.

Why would it make you sad. Less money you to pay on their food stamp, welfare and healthcare. It sounds like a fake sadness to me.

 

[Tanj]

Did you even read your reference?

I did. You, apparently, did not.

The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists travelled from the United States to other countries

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand about single payer medicine.

I have lived in 4 countries, including yours. I am not the one with head stuck in sand.

It is in fact great...that is until you actually need significant medical treatment.

I had surgery to remove kidney cancer, is that significant enough for you? My Mother needed a hip replacement, then it got infected so they had to repoerate and put an antiseptic pad in, then reoperate and put the replacement back in.

Total out of pocket expenses for her hip and my kidney operations: $1000.

There is a reason why US is usually the place to go to get unusual treatments for rare diseases and that is because we still offer them.

Except noone does that.

There will be no money available for orphan disease research

Medical research, the area I happen to work in is funded academically by groups such as the NIH in the US and the NH&MRC in Australia.

Neither have anything whatsoever to do with the healthcare system.

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


There have been some emotionally charged posts from both sides. If you cannot keep the discussion on an even keel, I'll just close the thread.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[“Paisios”]

Why would it make you sad. Less money you to pay on their food stamp, welfare and healthcare. It sounds like a fake sadness to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've seen too many babies die in miscarriages to think of the unborn as "just a fetus", and it does sadden me. Whether the child is wanted or unwanted does not determine its worth, and neither does the financial cost to society. I believe that every human life has intrinsic value. We clearly won't agree on this issue, so I will bow out of this conversation.

 

[blackribbon]

I did. You, apparently, did not.

Your reference admitted that most US "medical tourist" are going to Canada to buy prescription medications, not receive treatment...in fact, one of the answers on your reference said he TRIED to get surgery in Canada and was willing to pay out of pocket but was turned down because the doctor's malpractice insurance wouldn't cover him operating on a non-citizen.

I had surgery to remove kidney cancer, is that significant enough for you? My Mother needed a hip replacement, then it got infected so they had to repoerate and put an antiseptic pad in, then reoperate and put the replacement back in.

Total out of pocket expenses for her hip and my kidney operations: $1000.

Sounds similar to what I pay out-of-pocket with insurance. Why on earth did your mother get an infection that bad for something as simple as hip replacement? That sounds like questionable medical care. My mother was kept overnight and walked up and down her house stairs after that. I am not talking about routine issues but rather specialized and unique diagnoses that are not treated in every decent sized hospital.

Surgery only means you were relatively early staged cancer.

Except noone does that.

I don't know what you mean. Our university run hospitals study quite a few rare diseases and offer up unique treatments. The disease would dictate where you go for treatment of rare conditions like my friends son who has a glycogen storage disease ... or the preemies flown in from all across the nation to get a specific eye surgery at our facility before being flown back to their home NICUs.

Medical research, the area I happen to work in is funded academically by groups such as the NIH in the US and the NH&MRC in Australia.

Neither have anything whatsoever to do with the healthcare system.

And do you really believe the US government is going to continue to fund this research to the level it does if we aren't going to have the money to offer the treatments to our citizens because a government healthcare system isn't funded that deep?

Again, this is not the thread to discuss this. You can continue to believe what you want and maybe universal care does work where you live. I just have my doubts that a country as large in population as the US can do it. We can't even manage the veteran's healthcare system well.

 

[blackribbon]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've seen too many babies die in miscarriages to think of the unborn as "just a fetus", and it does sadden me. Whether the child is wanted or unwanted does not determine its worth, and neither does the financial cost to society. I believe that every human life has intrinsic value. We clearly won't agree on this issue, so I will bow out of this conversation.

and even sadder, there are people who DO want these "unwanted" babies... All babies have value.

 

[KCfromNC]

As I said, several thousand if you wish to establish that this is a standard practice by Canadian healthcare. I would also accept any sort of detailed studies where the results are published so they can be checked.

They'd also need to be compared against the rates in non-single-payer health care systems to see if there's any sort of correlation.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

Good for Oregon. This should be treated as healthcare for a woman and nothing else

I live in the here and now and reality is that more conceptions occur than births- and that appears to be by design. Anywhere between 10-25% of confirmed pregnancies end in miscarriage. Many doctors believe the numbers could be higher because so many miscarriages occur so early as to be unremarkable to the woman. Less than 700k abortions are performed annually in the US. It stands to reason that at least some of those abortions would have been miscarriages or stillbirths. It does not fret me that such a small number of conceptions (relative to the population) are voluntarily ended.

Our society, at least in the US, is lopsided. As long as someone isn't prepared to pretty much go it alone and raise a child with little to no social support- abortion is a reasonable alternative. There are not enough adoptive and foster families to cover the existing children as well as all those who will be aborted. There are not enough social programs to aid in the raising of children.

I cannot vilify people who make the best choice they can for their situation.

 

[blackribbon]

Good for Oregon. This should be treated as healthcare for a woman and nothing else

I live in the here and now and reality is that more conceptions occur than births- and that appears to be by design. Anywhere between 10-25% of confirmed pregnancies end in miscarriage. Many doctors believe the numbers could be higher because so many miscarriages occur so early as to be unremarkable to the woman. Less than 700k abortions are performed annually in the US. It stands to reason that at least some of those abortions would have been miscarriages or stillbirths. It does not fret me that such a small number of conceptions (relative to the population) are voluntarily ended.

Our society, at least in the US, is lopsided. As long as someone isn't prepared to pretty much go it alone and raise a child with little to no social support- abortion is a reasonable alternative. There are not enough adoptive and foster families to cover the existing children as well as all those who will be aborted. There are not enough social programs to aid in the raising of children.

I cannot vilify people who make the best choice they can for their situation.

There are not enough healthy babies to meet the need for wanting to adopt a baby. Not all adoptive parents are prepared to raise an older child. To make the assumption that you make, must mean that you are okay with infants that are killed from abuse because what difference does a few more months make between a miscarriage and a live birth....and because some babies actually die of natural causes and maybe they would have died of a natural cause if just allowed to live a month longer.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

<sarcasm>Yes, "this is awful"...we should really be forcing girls to raise a child they don't want in sub-par conditions...that'll be so much better for everyone involved.</sarcasm>

Gripe about paying for abortions...yet, when these same girls/women don't get abortions and need public assistance to cover the costs of raising the child (since they were shamed out of getting the abortion), then they gripe about that too.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

and even sadder, there are people who DO want these "unwanted" babies... All babies have value.

If people truly want babies. There's many starving orphans they could adopt.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

There are not enough healthy babies to meet the need for wanting to adopt a baby. Not all adoptive parents are prepared to raise an older child. To make the assumption that you make, must mean that you are okay with infants that are killed from abuse because what difference does a few more months make between a miscarriage and a live birth....and because some babies actually die of natural causes and maybe they would have died of a natural cause if just allowed to live a month longer.

What do you really expect in response to this?

Not all aborted fetuses would be healthy children, so what would you do with them? Adoptive parents not prepared to take an older child (like a toddler) probably want to avoid "damage" and while that is understandable, no one should have a give birth to an unwanted child just in hopes someone who is afraid of problems might adopt it.

As to your last point- actually, I am ok with abortion on demand, to be determined by doctor and patient. Abortion is self care. Infanticide is murder. I don't need "reasons" for abortion, I toss them out for others who need them.

 

[Tallguy88]

Whats the view on the "morning after pill"

There's differing opinions within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. It is universally condemned to use any method that stops the implantation of a fertilized egg (no different from abortion morally). But the debate comes over whether it actually does that or whether it stops fertilization from occurring. The former is never allowed, the latter can be allowed in extreme cases like rape.

In ordinary circumstances, it is a form of artificial contraception and isn't allowed any more than other forms because it perverts sex from it's intended purpose. But rape is already perverted so it's not a sin to try to defend yourself from the consequences of it, such as by using plan B or such. But once conception has occurred, the the unborn child has a right to life and it can't knowingly be terminated.

Here's some sources:

"Consequently, from the ethical standpoint the same absolute unlawfulness of abortifacient procedures also applies to distributing, prescribing and taking the morning-after pill. All who, whether sharing the intention or not, directly co-operate with this procedure are also morally responsible for it."

Statement on the "morning-after pill'

"“A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault. If after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medications that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum”."

The “Morning-After Pill”, Rape Victims and Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services :: Catholic News Agency

"Germany’s Roman Catholic bishops have approved the use of the morning-after pill, but only under extreme circumstances. Church leaders made the decision after two rape victims were refused the pill at a Cologne hospital.

The bishops, meeting in the German city of Trier, agreed that Catholic hospitals in Germany should be allowed to prescribe the morning-after pill for women who had been the victims of rape.

However, Germany’s Catholic clergy stipulated that medicines may only be used that prevent conception and not as a means to induce abortion. The use of drugs that cause the death of an embryo or fetus would continue to be banned, even for rape victims, they said."

Catholic bishops give cautious nod to morning-after pill | News | DW | 21.02.2013

 

[Tallguy88]

I think it is more recognizing an ironic side effect of not having the government make some types of medical care illegal.

Killing someone is not valid medical care.