A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[d taylor]

I'm thinking of the prodigal son.
He was pretty far away.
And yet his father was waiting for his return...

Yes that is a good example. The prodigal son never lost his sonship, even though they considered him dead. The dead is the comparison, to a person who is dead in their faith. Some may repent and come back to the faith. While others, like what Hebrews 6 is speaking of may never come back to the faith, and may die in a state of unbelief. But there are no examples in The Bible of a believer who has fallen away and does not return to the faith losing their eternal life, they received when they trusted in The Messiah.

 

[d taylor]

Acts 13 48 is a toughie. But we never go by only one verse, and it is the only one.

John 6,65,,,no problem.
John 1,12-13,, no problem.

But I need my computer.
Will send my rendition after dinner.

Nothing new for you, I'm sure.

This may help.

A New View on Acts 13:48 “As Many as Were Prepared for Eternal Life Believed” – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[d taylor]

Apostasy means that you are no longer a Christian.

So show (in The Bible) me where an apostate believer loses their Eternal Life. An easy to see example, not a verse or verses that can be interpreted multiple ways.

 

[All Becomes New]

So show (in The Bible) me where an apostate believer loses their Eternal Life. An easy to see example, not a verse or verses that can be interpreted multiple ways.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have yet to see one verse, nevermind plural verses, that say God doesn't know what men will choose. Even those who say he predestines based on foreseeing what men will choose or do, disagree with that.

God knows what men will choose.
My post was badly written.
God foreknows everything that will happen.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have yet to see one verse, nevermind plural verses, that say God doesn't know what men will choose. Even those who say he predestines based on foreseeing what men will choose or do, disagree with that.

PS
I was showing the two sides of the scale...
One member here says that God knows only what HE will do...
Then those such as yourself say what Piper says: Even the dust particles are predestinated...

I don't believe either side.

 

[d taylor]

Not that verse, do you have another one.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Do you even realize what you are implying? If God treats everyone the same, yet some go to hell, why do not all go to hell? Because some are of themselves somehow BETTER than others? And before you answer no, not better, just they happened to choose Christ, or just happened to want Christ, or such construction, look at WHY they just happened to, and follow that train of reasoning all the way back. You are implying that some earn whatever God gives them.

How do I EARN something by believing?

I HEAR THE GOSPEL....faith comes by hearing,
I am moved by God's grace and BELIEVE.

Please don't tell me that believing is a work....
Or that faith is a work.
Paul distinctly said that if it is by faith then it cannot be by works
and V V.

The WHY cannot be known by you nor me.
We have to rely on God who cannot be separated from Himself.

He is either a God of love or He is not.
He is either a God of mercy or He is not.
He is either a just God or He is not.

God does not HAVE His attributes,,,
He IS His attributes...

and cannot be separated from them.
John said GOD IS LOVE.

Well, do we believe John who spent over 3 years with JESUS, the perfect revelation of God,
or do we not?

 

[GodsGrace101]

You tell me. . .

1Jn 4:19, Ro 15:30, 5:5, 8, 8:35, 39, 2 Co 5:14, Eph 1:4, 2:4, 3:18-19, Php 2:1, 1Jn 3:1, 16, 4:9-10, 16,
Mt 12:18, 17:5, Jn 3:16, 11:3, 13:1, 14:21, 23, etc., etc., etc.

Well, gee, you forgot to answer question 2.
Or, possibly, you don't even understand it...or you would realize that your verses are useless.

 

[All Becomes New]

Not that verse, do you have another one.

How many times does the Bible need to say something for it to be true? I take the warnings against Apostasy in the NT to be taken at face value. Also, king Saul lost his salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes that is a good example. The prodigal son never lost his sonship, even though they considered him dead. The dead is the comparison, to a person who is dead in their faith. Some may repent and come back to the faith. While others, like what Hebrews 6 is speaking of may never come back to the faith, and may die in a state of unbelief. But there are no examples in The Bible of a believer who has fallen away and does not return to the faith losing their eternal life, they received when they trusted in The Messiah.

Dead, biblically speaking means spiritually dead.
The Prodigal Son was dead, Jesus said that he has come to life AGAIN...
So he was alive, dead, alive again:
Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

I understand what you're saying about a person that falls away and then comes back.
You're saying that everyone comes back.
That would be like the story of the lost lamb...
God will always look for us and wait for us.

I do believe there's a point when someone will become so hard-hearted that it will be difficult to regain
their salvation.

There are some examples, though, of some that don't come back.

How do you understand 2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

This may help.

A New View on Acts 13:48 “As Many as Were Prepared for Eternal Life Believed” – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Thanks d Taylor.
I happen to know about that...
but unless I understand something PERSONALLY, and don't just parrot what I've heard,
I tend not to get into the discussion.

I, instead, tend to believe that that particular verse was just picked up incorrectly by some scribe since NOTHING ELSE in the NT agrees with it.

PS, it's that word APPOINTED that causes the problem...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not that verse, do you have another one.

Do you mean like 2 Peter 2:20-22 ??

 

[d taylor]

How many times does the Bible need to say something for it to be true? I take the warnings against Apostasy in the NT to be taken at face value. Also, king Saul lost his salvation.

Saul did not. There is not one single example of a believer losing their eternal life, in The Bible.

 

[d taylor]

Dead, biblically speaking means spiritually dead.
The Prodigal Son was dead, Jesus said that he has come to life AGAIN...
So he was alive, dead, alive again:
Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

I understand what you're saying about a person that falls away and then comes back.
You're saying that everyone comes back.
That would be like the story of the lost lamb...
God will always look for us and wait for us.

I do believe there's a point when someone will become so hard-hearted that it will be difficult to regain
their salvation.

There are some examples, though, of some that don't come back.

How do you understand 2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

No i am not saying everyone comes back, while they are living on earth. But that still does not affect the Eternal Life they received from God, they never lose it.

This this shows how many really do not understand the word grace that is connected to God (God's grace).

Oh many believe in God's grace as long as they are doing their part of obedience.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This may help.

A New View on Acts 13:48 “As Many as Were Prepared for Eternal Life Believed” – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Wow.
Very good article.
Will have to read it a few times!

 

[All Becomes New]

Saul did not. There is not one single example of a believer losing their eternal life, in The Bible.

Yes, there is.

2 Timothy 4:9–10 CSB17
“Make every effort to come to me soon, because Demas has deserted me, since he loved this present world, and has gone to Thessalonica.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

No i am not saying everyone comes back, while they are living on earth. But that still does not affect the Eternal Life they received from God, they never lose it.

This this shows how many really do not understand the word grace that is connected to God (God's grace).

Oh many believe in God's grace as long as they are doing their part of obedience.

But aren't we supposed to do our part of obeying?
If we BELIEVE, it means we obey...
It's like that APPOINTED word...
the word OBEY is in the world unbelief, so the opposite is also true.

If we stop obeying, are we still saved?

 

[Lost Witness]

received from God, they never lose it.

That's not true,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."?

 

[Clare73]

Well, gee, you forgot to answer question 2.

False dichotomy.

And kinda' like you didn't address my response. . .

Or, possibly, you don't even understand it...or you would realize that your verses are useless.

Amusing. . .