A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[Clare73]

Whenever you have to bombard with over 10 Bible verses, it's a clear sign you don't know what you're talking about.

Who made that rule?
You're kidding, right?
An abundance of evidence is really no evidence at all?
In addition to divine foreknowledge, do you also not understand what absurdity is?
Methinks because the evidence overcomes your objections, and you have no way to unseat it, you create a pathetic absurdity to try to invalidate it.

You know you don't have any clear verse to prove your view, so you have to pull out so many verses or some wall of text to make it look like you're right.

Translate: The testimony of multiple Scriptures is proof of error, for truth can be testifed to by only one statement.
Who made that rule?

Maybe quote just one verse and then we talk.

Where did you learn that Biblical testimony to a doctrine must be limited to one statement?

Pick one about which you have a question, and we'll look at other Scriptures which corroborate or explain it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Whenever you have to bombard with over 10 Bible verses, it's a clear sign you don't know what you're talking about. You know you don't have any clear verse to prove your view, so you have to pull out so many verses or some wall of text to make it look like you're right.

Maybe quote just one verse and then we talk.

God doesn't know what men will choose.
On the other end God even predestinated the dust and how it travels.

The biblical truth is overlooked by both sides.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, Calvinism affirms this. God did not choose people based on anything in reference to themselves

@Tolworth John made a statement in post no. 2 that you apparently don't quite understand.

He posted Acts 10:34 in the ESV version
34And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This does NOT MEAN that God did not choose people based on anything in reference to themselves.
It means THE OPPOSITE.

It means that God does not show favoritism...

Let's try it in a more understandable version:

NASB
34“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,"

NLT
34Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.

KJV
34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.


IOW, God treats everyone the same.
And God does this because He is a just God.
Calvinists cannot believe that God is a just God.
I hope you know what it means to be just...

You'll notice in the following that it states that favoritism is the UNFAIR preferential treatment to a person or persons.
So is God UNFAIR to you?
If He unjust to you?



favouritism
/ˈfeɪv(ə)rɪtɪz(ə)m/

noun
noun: favoritism

1. 1.the practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another.
   "my parents would vehemently deny showing favouritism towards one child in particular"
   
   

 

[All Becomes New]

John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 2:19

Hebrews 6:4-8.

 

[d taylor]

Hebrews 6:4-8.

The verses you have posted are addressing a believer and the believer or believers falling away from the faith. Nothing is stated in Hebrews 6 about believers falling away and losing their Eternal Life they received when they trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. The repentance in this would be a repentance of a fallen away believer to be restored back into the faith.

 

[All Becomes New]

The verses you have posted are addressing a believer and the believer or believers falling away from the faith. Nothing is stated in Hebrews 6 about believers falling away and losing their Eternal Life they received when they trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. The repentance in this would be a repentance of a fallen away believer to be restored back into the faith.

"They once again crucify..."

How do you interpret that?

 

[d taylor]

"They once again crucify..."

How do you interpret that?

That a believer or believers who turn their back on their faith and falls away (essentially a rebel of the faith). Can go so far away from the faith that they can not be restored back into the faith. Because it would be like this believer had actually never been a believer and to restore him/her would be like crucifying The Messiah again. Which that would publicly humiliate The Messiah and what He did. In a way it would be like saying Jesus's first crucifixion was not sufficient He needs to do it again.
Remember satan (and his angels) watches believers and loves to take opportunities to accuse believers before God of loving the world more than their God.

Look at Hebrews 10 it touches on this
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

A unbeliever would never be addressed as "His people" . So it can be seen that believers who fall away back into sin may face severe punishment and judgment from God.

 

[All Becomes New]

That a believer or believers who turn their back on their faith and falls away (essentially a rebel of the faith). Can go so far away from the faith that they can not be restored back into the faith. Because it would be like this believer had actually never been a believer and to restore him/her would be like crucifying The Messiah again. Which that would publicly humiliate The Messiah and what He did. In a way it would be like saying Jesus's first crucifixion was not sufficient He needs to do it again.
Remember satan (and his angels) watches believers and loves to take opportunities to accuse believers before God of loving the world more than their God.

Look at Hebrews 10 it touches on this
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

A unbeliever would never be addressed as "His people" . So it can be seen that believers who fall away back into sin may face severe punishment and judgment from God.

Apostasy means that you are no longer a Christian.

 

[Jonaitis]

@Tolworth John made a statement in post no. 2 that you apparently don't quite understand.

He posted Acts 10:34 in the ESV version
34And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This does NOT MEAN that God did not choose people based on anything in reference to themselves.
It means THE OPPOSITE.

It means that God does not show favoritism...

Let's try it in a more understandable version:

NASB
34“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,"

NLT
34Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.

KJV
34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.


IOW, God treats everyone the same.
And God does this because He is a just God.
Calvinists cannot believe that God is a just God.
I hope you know what it means to be just...

You'll notice in the following that it states that favoritism is the UNFAIR preferential treatment to a person or persons.
So is God UNFAIR to you?
If He unjust to you?



favouritism
/ˈfeɪv(ə)rɪtɪz(ə)m/

noun
noun: favoritism

1. 1.the practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another.
   "my parents would vehemently deny showing favouritism towards one child in particular"

Did god show favoritism for the Jewish nation when he chose them over all the other nations, and that based on nothing in reference to themselves (Deuteronomy 7:6-8)? If you follow the chronogeneaologies of Genesis, Shem should have been alive during the life of Abraham. Why did god call Abraham over Shem who was formerly a pagan (Joshua 24:2)? Did god show favoritism when he chose Jacob over Esau, or Isaac over Ishmael, before they were born? It seems that you may only apply this to Israel, but not to the church. God showed favoritism long before the church officially arrived on the scene.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That a believer or believers who turn their back on their faith and falls away (essentially a rebel of the faith). Can go so far away from the faith that they can not be restored back into the faith. Because it would be like this believer had actually never been a believer and to restore him/her would be like crucifying The Messiah again. Which that would publicly humiliate The Messiah and what He did. In a way it would be like saying Jesus's first crucifixion was not sufficient He needs to do it again.
Remember satan (and his angels) watches believers and loves to take opportunities to accuse believers before God of loving the world more than their God.

Look at Hebrews 10 it touches on this
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

A unbeliever would never be addressed as "His people" . So it can be seen that believers who fall away back into sin may face severe punishment and judgment from God.

I'm thinking of the prodigal son.
He was pretty far away.
And yet his father was waiting for his return...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Did god show favoritism for the Jewish nation when he chose them over all the other nations, and that based on nothing in reference to themselves (Deuteronomy 7:6-8)? If you follow the chronogeneaologies of Genesis, Shem should have been alive during the life of Abraham. Why did god call Abraham over Shem who was formerly a pagan (Joshua 24:2)? Did god show favoritism when he chose Jacob over Esau, or Isaac over Ishmael, before they were born? It seems that you may only apply this to Israel, but not to the church. God showed favoritism long before the church officially arrived on the scene.

I'd have to go back and check the posts.
I'll say this...
God intervenes in human history at times in order to achieve His goal.
So, yes, God did favor those persons you mentioned...also Mary.

I believe we were discussing individual persons GENERALLY SPEAKING.

IOW God does not choose who will be saved and who will be lost forever. This is the favoritism to which I was addressing.

 

[Jonaitis]

I'd have to go back and check the posts.
I'll say this...
God intervenes in human history at times in order to achieve His goal.
So, yes, God did favor those persons you mentioned...also Mary.

I believe we were discussing individual persons GENERALLY SPEAKING.

IOW God does not choose who will be saved and who will be lost forever. This is the favoritism to which I was addressing.

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
- Acts 13:48

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
- John 6:65

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."
- John 3:8

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of god, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of god."
- John 1:12-13

If you believe in the gospel, you were called out by god through his unmerited favor, without reference to anything in or from or because of yourself. It is purely grace and mercy bestowed on you. Heaven called you to become a child of god. Praise him that your salvation was entirely his doing!

 

[Clare73]

I'd have to go back and check the posts.
I'll say this...
God intervenes in human history at times in order to achieve His goal.
So, yes, God did favor those persons you mentioned...also Mary.

I believe we were discussing individual persons GENERALLY SPEAKING.

IOW God does not choose who will be saved and who will be lost forever. This is the favoritism to which I was addressing.

Showing favoritism is in regard to God's justice. . .where all are treated justly. . .all are given what they are owed, their due, what they deserve, which means all are condemned (Ro 5:18), by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

Unlike justice which God owes everyone, God does not owe mercy to anyone and, therefore, is not unjust in not giving it to anyone, or in giving it only to some, for he owes it to no one, no one has a just claim against him for not receiving mercy which he does not owe them, as they would for justice which he does owe them.

 

[GodsGrace101]

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
- Acts 13:48

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
- John 6:65

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."
- John 3:8

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of god, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of god."
- John 1:12-13

If you believe in the gospel, you were called out by god through his unmerited favor, without reference to anything in or from or because of yourself. It is purely grace and mercy bestowed on you. Heaven called you to become a child of god. Praise him that your salvation was entirely his doing!

Acts 13 48 is a toughie. But we never go by only one verse, and it is the only one.

John 6,65,,,no problem.
John 1,12-13,, no problem.

But I need my computer.
Will send my rendition after dinner.

Nothing new for you, I'm sure.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Showing favoritism is in regard to God's justice. . .where all are treated justly. . .all are given what they are owed, their due, what they deserve, which means all are condemned (Ro 5:18), by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

God owes no one mercy and, therefore, is not unjust in not giving it to anyone, or in giving it only to some, for he owes it to no one, no one has a just claim against him for not receiving mercy which he does not owe them, as they would for justice which he does owe them.

SOS

So why is He called a God of mercy?
Is mercy not a part of grace?
And perhaps you don't understand what justice is.

 

[Clare73]

SOS

So why is He called a God of mercy?

Because he dispenses mercy.

Is mercy not a part of grace?

Do all receive saving grace?

And perhaps you don't understand what justice is.

Or is it you who does not understand the meaning of justice. . .

 

[GodsGrace101]

Because he dispenses mercy.



Do all receive saving grace?


Or is it you who does not understand the meaning of justice. . .

Does God dispense love...
Or
IS He love?

God cannot be separated from His attributes.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God doesn't know what men will choose.
On the other end God even predestinated the dust and how it travels.

The biblical truth is overlooked by both sides.

I have yet to see one verse, nevermind plural verses, that say God doesn't know what men will choose. Even those who say he predestines based on foreseeing what men will choose or do, disagree with that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

IOW, God treats everyone the same.
And God does this because He is a just God.
Calvinists cannot believe that God is a just God.
I hope you know what it means to be just...

You'll notice in the following that it states that favoritism is the UNFAIR preferential treatment to a person or persons.
So is God UNFAIR to you?
If He unjust to you?

Do you even realize what you are implying? If God treats everyone the same, yet some go to hell, why do not all go to hell? Because some are of themselves somehow BETTER than others? And before you answer no, not better, just they happened to choose Christ, or just happened to want Christ, or such construction, look at WHY they just happened to, and follow that train of reasoning all the way back. You are implying that some earn whatever God gives them.

 

[Clare73]

Does God dispense love...

You tell me. . .

1Jn 4:19, Ro 15:30, 5:5, 8, 8:35, 39, 2 Co 5:14, Eph 1:4, 2:4, 3:18-19, Php 2:1, 1Jn 3:1, 16, 4:9-10, 16,
Mt 12:18, 17:5, Jn 3:16, 11:3, 13:1, 14:21, 23, etc., etc., etc.

Or
IS He love?

God cannot be separated from His attributes.