A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

John Mullally

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You attempt somehow, again, to misrepresent what Calvinism claims. It does not claim that we do not believe, and that, with Salvific Faith, and that Salvific Faith comes by the hearing of the word of God. It does claim that this Salvific Faith is not the work of man. It does not claim that man is not endowed with it, nor even that man does not exercise this faith in his John 3:16-type belief. It does claim that this Salvific Faith is a Gift of God and not of man. It demonstrates absolutely that this salvific faith is the result of the change, i.e. the Regeneration, God has made in the Spiritually DEAD man that the object of God's merciful gift was before that re-birth.

GOD gave us eternal life. Nothing we did produced that.

They did not share in the faith because God had not regenerated them. hello.
There are not two classes of faith in God (salvific and otherwise). Ephesians 1:13 also states that faith follows hearing: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

Calvinists insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift, in which salvation is a gift freely received by faith rather than being obtained through one’s performance under the Mosiac Law. Romans 6:23 indicates the same: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift is clearly salvation, in terms of receiving eternal life through faith in Christ. For Calvinists, though, the free gift of God is Irresistible Grace for Calvinism’s elect.

J. Vernon McGee: “Paul is not talking about faith when he says, ‘And that not of yourselves.’ He is talking about salvation. Salvation is a gift that eliminates boasting. It is all of God and not of us. It is God’s gift.”

The fact that God’s grace is “not of yourselves” means that the freeness of salvation is solely at God’s discretion and prerogative, in setting things up in the way that He has. In other words, we don’t dictate the terms of salvation to God. God dictates His own terms and makes salvation freely available, simply at the asking. The thief on the cross, according to Luke 23:42, comes to mind. The contrast between salvation and discipleship is that whereas salvation is free, discipleship is costly.

In your three most receent responses to me there is only one mention of a scripture verse (John 3:16) and that just in passing. Calvinism uses scripture - but basically peculuar interpretations of such that does not stand up when exploring other scripture passages.
 
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Mark Quayle

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John Mullally

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Yes, salvation is all of God and not of us, to include both the faith and the grace.
That is J. Vernon's word usage - it's not like J. Vernon was quoting or paraphrasing a particular scripture. And J. Vernon did not add faith as being all of God as you did. God's grace is Christ's redemption made available for all humanity (1 Timothy 2:6 & 1 John 2:2).

Jesus gives the terms for receiving the free gift of salvation in Mark 16:16. Jesus will not do for men what he directs men to do.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​
 
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Mark Quayle

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That is J. Vernon's word usage - it's not like J. Vernon was quoting or paraphrasing a particular scripture.

Jesus gives the terms for receiving the free gift of salvation in Mark 16:16. Jesus will not do for you what he directs you to do.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​
Who is saying he does for you what he directs you to do? I'm not saying he believes for you. I'm saying he gives you faith. It is not generated by you, but by the Spirit of God.
 
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John Mullally

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Who is saying he does for you what he directs you to do? I'm not saying he believes for you. I'm saying he gives you faith. It is not generated by you, but by the Spirit of God.
When Jesus's disciples asked Jesus to give them more faith, he told them to use what they had. The bible does not say that God gives faith. The bible tells us that faith comes by hearing the word of God (Acts 10:17).

Faith is not a “thing,” as in a tangible object, such as the sun and rain which God provided to nourish life on earth. Faith (or trust) in God is an act of the will, describing an action between two agents. If the agency of man is absorbed under “Monergism,” then it is no longer faith or trust being displayed, but instead an action that God does to Himself through another agent. Faith and trust in God requires willing human consent, or else it’s no longer faith and trust that we are talking about.
 
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When Jesus's disciples asked Jesus to give them more faith, he told them to use what they had. The bible does not say that God gives faith. The bible tells us that faith comes by hearing the word of God (Acts 10:17).

Faith is not a “thing,” as in a tangible object, such as the sun and rain which God provided to nourish life on earth. Faith (or trust) in God is an act of the will, describing an action between two agents. If the agency of man is absorbed under “Monergism,” then it is no longer faith or trust being displayed, but instead an action that God does to Himself through another agent. Faith and trust in God requires willing human consent, or else it’s no longer faith and trust that we are talking about.
It's not a tangible thing, but you will say it isn't a work, either, since you think it is of human derivation. Nevertheless, it is only reasonable to call it a work, if it is generated by the human.

You consent to —even with— your faith, but you don't generate it. It is not by the will of the one to whom God gives it. But what amazes me is how you can think human will, and fallen at that, to be of such integrity, constancy, knowledge and wisdom, dedication and devotion, to even be able to be of any significance toward God's salvation.

And as always, you make up some axiom about the nature of what is real —in this case faith— though before you tried to tell me what is required for choice to be real. Can you show me in the Bible where it says that faith and trust in God requires willing human consent? Yet, even if you could prove that to me, it is inconsequential. The faith does not have to be generated by you in order for you to consent to it.
 
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John Mullally

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It's not a tangible thing, but you will say it isn't a work, either, since you think it is of human derivation. Nevertheless, it is only reasonable to call it a work, if it is generated by the human.

You consent to —even with— your faith, but you don't generate it. It is not by the will of the one to whom God gives it. But what amazes me is how you can think human will, and fallen at that, to be of such integrity, constancy, knowledge and wisdom, dedication and devotion, to even be able to be of any significance toward God's salvation.

And as always, you make up some axiom about the nature of what is real —in this case faith— though before you tried to tell me what is required for choice to be real. Can you show me in the Bible where it says that faith and trust in God requires willing human consent? Yet, even if you could prove that to me, it is inconsequential. The faith does not have to be generated by you in order for you to consent to it.
Faith and Grace vs Works: One of the most significant aspects to the nature of works and faith is this: “Works” speak to your own merits, while “faith” in someone else speaks of the merits of the other person in whom you are placing your trust. So, while “works” speak of your value, faith speaks of someone else’s value. That’s a key distinction, and perhaps is why the apostle Paul spoke of the works of the Law and faith as being mutually exclusive:

Romans 4:4-5: Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.​

Faith does not exclude grace, but is directly linked to grace:

Romans 4:16: For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.​

Faith is also our introduction to grace:

Romans 5:1-2: Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.​

Galatians 3:2: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works: Non-Calvinists hold that we receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—even as little as a person’s submission in passive non-resistance—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. As such, Calvinists insist that if God had not chosen some—namely Calvinism’s elect—then no one would have freely chosen to love God. Calvinists also deny that God coerces any person to believe or that God believes on behalf of the elect, even though Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”

Summary: God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant, then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself.

Since faith comes by hearing the word of God (Acts 10:17), faith is as much a choice on man's part as what he chooses to listen to.
 
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5thKingdom

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"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" - Acts 10:34

What this verse is saying is that God doesn't care what kind of person you are. As the proverb goes: red, yellow, black or white, we're all prcious in his sight. However, Calvinism doesn't fit well with this verse. If God chooses one person to be saved and another person to be lost, then it looks like God indeed is a respecter of persons. From a Calvinist point of view Peter would be completely wrong in this verse.


The Gospel is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or that "their sins should be forgiven them".


That is what JESUS said.
Do you believe Jesus?


Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Jesus was clear:
Some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or that "their sins should be forgiven".
Hard to argue Universal Atonement when Jesus denies that notion plainly.

/
 
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John Mullally

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The Gospel is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or that "their sins should be forgiven them".


That is what JESUS said.
Do you believe Jesus?


Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Jesus was clear:
Some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or that "their sins should be forgiven".
Hard to argue Universal Atonement when Jesus denies that notion plainly.

/
God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). 1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2 say that Christ atoned for all men. 2 Peter 2:1 says that Christ even atoned for false teachers on their way to perdition.

Jesus had a job to do (doing what the Father instructed Him). He had to fulfill prophecy, which required He do great miracles and yet be rejected by the chief religious leaders and crucified. Jesus's hiding of His message in parables allowed Him to disceminate truth to the small set of His true disciples without growing too large in popularity. Notice in John 6:53-66, Jesus goes out of His way to speak truth that He knows will offend just to keep from continuing to gather many followers.

After Christ's resurrection, the Great Commission was given and the mysteries of the Gospel (Ephesians 3) were fully preached. Paul says that it is satan, not God, who is working to keep people from understanding the glorious Gospel.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​
 
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5thKingdom

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It's not a tangible thing, but you will say it isn't a work, either, since you think it is of human derivation. Nevertheless, it is only reasonable to call it a work, if it is generated by the human.

LOL

You consent to —even with— your faith, but you don't generate it. It is not by the will of the one to whom God gives it. But what amazes me is how you can think human will, and fallen at that, to be of such integrity, constancy, knowledge and wisdom, dedication and devotion, to even be able to be of any significance toward God's salvation.

Again


/
 
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5thKingdom

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5thKingdom said:
The Gospel is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or that "their sins should be forgiven them".


God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). 1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2 say that Christ atoned for all men. 2 Peter 2:1 says that Christ even atoned for false teachers on their way to perdition.


Let's take them ONE at the time.
You contend 1 John 2:2 teaches Universal Atonement.
The CONTEXT for verse 2 is found in verse 1:


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Is the context of "My little children"

(1) Everyone in the world?
(2) Those who reject the Gospel?
(3) the unsaved "tares" in the Church (sown by Satan)
(4) the saved "wheat" in the Church (sown by Christ)


You see, you cannot find the MEANING of a passage when you lack CONTEXT.
1 John 2:1-2 is clear, the PEOPLE in view are ONLY (#4) the saved "wheat" in the Church (sown by Christ)


As to "the sins of the whole world"...
That is True... It was NAMED the Great Commission of the Church Age... it saves ALL of "His Sheep" but ONLY "His Sheep".
You are ADDING to the text to assume "the world" includes MORE than just "His Sheep"


Now... I can do this with your verses all day long.
So please do not present a laundry list of passages.

My contention is clear...
Give me you BEST "proof" passages
1 or 2 at a time.


Jim


/
 
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BNR32FAN

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I seem to remember you claiming back then as now, "She claims that God chose everyone according to Him choosing everyone", but she did not. She said that God chose according to his foreknowledge, (which 'foreknowledge' is not at all what you claim it to be), and has also said, if I'm remembering right, that God chose according to the counsel of his own will. Neither of those mean what you claimed, nor can they be extrapolated to say it, but in your own use of her words. I.e. STRAWMAN

As to your reference to her being illogical: You, by your use of the biblical term, "foreknowledge", come up with the notion that God chose who to save by looking forward in time and seeing who is saved. Now, WHO is using circular logic? (Yes, I did like you do and used my paraphrase of what you did say.)
God looking forward to what He will do is circular. The only difference is that He hasn’t instigated it yet. So God choosing people according to the foreknowledge of what He will do means nothing more than God chose people according to His choosing people because what He would do in the future is based on His choice before creation. The election took place before creation not after, so God didn’t have to look forward to see what He would do in order to make His decision on whom He would choose because the choice was already made before creation. That’s like me saying that I’m going to build a house next week so I’ll decide now to build a house next week. This would be an example of me choosing to do something based on what I’m going to do in the future.

And no that’s not my position at all. God’s election is based on His foreknowledge of who will repent and abide in Christ. That’s not circular, it’s linear.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Seems you misspoke yourself into accuracy! —"God won’t save anyone with our cooperation..."

How does the logic work, that our cooperation means that it is not of ourselves? Are you saying that if it is not only of ourselves, it is not of ourselves at all?
Thanks I fixed the typo and yes if our salvation is synergetic then it’s not deriving from ourselves. Where would mankind be without the gospel or Christ’s atonement? Not of ourselves. Why do you think that Jesus and the apostles called everyone to repentance? Is it because repentance is unnecessary or is it because God automatically causes people to repent? I can provide scriptures refuting both of these ideas.
 
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John Mullally

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5thKingdom said:
The Gospel is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or that "their sins should be forgiven them".





Let's take them ONE at the time.
You contend 1 John 2:2 teaches Universal Atonement.
The CONTEXT for verse 2 is found in verse 1:


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Is the context of "My little children"

(1) Everyone in the world?
(2) Those who reject the Gospel?
(3) the unsaved "tares" in the Church (sown by Satan)
(4) the saved "wheat" in the Church (sown by Christ)


You see, you cannot find the MEANING of a passage when you lack CONTEXT.
1 John 2:1-2 is clear, the PEOPLE in view are ONLY (#4) the saved "wheat" in the Church (sown by Christ)


As to "the sins of the whole world"...
That is True... It was NAMED the Great Commission of the Church Age... it saves ALL of "His Sheep" but ONLY "His Sheep".
You are ADDING to the text to assume "the world" includes MORE than just "His Sheep"


Now... I can do this with your verses all day long.
So please do not present a laundry list of passages.

My contention is clear...
Give me you BEST "proof" passages
1 or 2 at a time.


Jim


/
God desires all men be saved. Everything is according to God's timing. That is why there is a New Covenant that began with the resurrection and was first hinted at just days earlier at the last supper. Even the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. Adam's sin opened the door to the operation of satan on earth - to the point where Jesus termed him the ruler of this world. Prior to the resurrection, much remained hidden because God had to get satan's unwitting assistance.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​
In the New Covenant, we see that God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Christ's Propitiation for the sins of all humanity: 1 John 2:2 starts small with the first half of that verse saying that Jesus is the propition for our sins - where as you say the context is my little children and the second half of the verse expands the propitiation to cover the sins of the whole world. The sins of the whole world means every man's sin. Those who do not come to Christ are part of the whole world - if John meant to restrict it those that come to Christ he would have used a different phrase than "the whole world". Be careful not to add to scripture. 1 John 2:2 agrees with what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:6. And like I said earlier 1 Peter 2:1 shows that Christ also paid for false teachers on their way to perdition.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​
Where We All Should Agree:

a. The gospel appeal is for all: The gospel is for every man, woman, boy and girl. We should all agree (unless you affirm Hyper-Calvinism) that all are to be the recipients of the gospel offer.​
b. The atonement is sufficient to save all: Christ’s death is sufficient for all. Everyone should agree that the value of Christ’s atoning work is sufficient to cover the sins of every man, woman, boy and girl.​
c. The atonement only benefits those who believe: Christ’s death is only efficacious for those who believe. Every Christian should agree that the saving benefit (efficacy) of the atoning work of Christ is limited to those who believe (regardless of how you think the lost come to believe).​
 
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Mark Quayle

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Faith and Grace vs Works: One of the most significant aspects to the nature of works and faith is this: “Works” speak to your own merits, while “faith” in someone else speaks of the merits of the other person in whom you are placing your trust. So, while “works” speak of your value, faith speaks of someone else’s value. That’s a key distinction, and perhaps is why the apostle Paul spoke of the works of the Law and faith as being mutually exclusive:
But we don't KNOW the value of the one in whom we place our faith. Only the Spirit of God within us knows. Our assessment of his value is not constant, not to mention that it begins at an ignorant start.
Faith does not exclude grace, but is directly linked to grace:
More than you know!
Faith is also our introduction to grace:
Are you saying that grace also comes by faith? That is not what the text says, not to mention that that is obviously, then, works-based, if the faith is humanly derived, and so it is not grace after all.
Calvinists conflate Faith with Works: Non-Calvinists hold that we receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—even as little as a person’s submission in passive non-resistance—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. As such, Calvinists insist that if God had not chosen some—namely Calvinism’s elect—then no one would have freely chosen to love God. Calvinists also deny that God coerces any person to believe or that God believes on behalf of the elect, even though Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”
You say, "...from the Calvinistic perspective, ...(as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—even as little as a person’s submission in passive non-resistance—what is left is some element of human contribution." So do you admit that 'human contribution' is works? What you term, "passive non-resistance"—do you not consider that 'willed choice'?

—Let me again ask the question plainly: Does salvation, or does it not, hinge on willed human choice?

Then you say, "what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person..." No, that's not what they mean. "On behalf of?" Not at all. Salvific faith is indeed the work of God, generated by the Spirit of God, incorporated into the person, by the inhabiting Spirit of God. It is of the same source as regeneration, and logically a result of regeneration, and concurrent with regeneration. It is, as has been shown you so often, "on behalf of" which you continue to insist on, along with, "should happen automatically", demonstrate your ignorance of what Calvinism does teach.

"Surely will come to pass" does not mean "automatically will happen". It only means that it will happen, and that, by the act and will of God. And the fact that all things come to pass by the act and will of God does not mean that God does what we are required to do "on our behalf", except where we are unable to live without sin, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. He does work in us to do whatever he wills, in order that what he has ordained will indeed come to pass. There is no "automatic" there. It is requisite, in order to be saved, that we be born again, but he does it IN US. Not for us. The same is true with all the virtues descended from regeneration. Our faith is the work of God IN US. We do not generate it. Indeed, we cannot. But it does nevertheless become ours upon regeneration. And yes, as a result of our regeneration, we DO CHOOSE to believe.

Also, you insist on the notion that Calvinism teaches that God forces a change of will on a person against their will. Yes, when your words are reduced to their meaning and use, it becomes that clumsy and silly to say. It is more than awkward, it's not even cogent. Regeneration, among other descriptions, is that change to a person's will. But it is not done against their will, nor is it done with their cooperation. (To put it in crass terms), it is not done with their consent —they are not even consulted, nor aware that it is going to happen, until it has already happened; their will has been bypassed on the matter. How can the fetus cooperate with their birth? How can the dead cooperate with their resurrection?
Summary: God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant, then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself.

Since faith comes by hearing the word of God (Acts 10:17), faith is as much a choice on man's part as what he chooses to listen to.
Salvific faith, which comes by the hearing of the Word of God, does not logically derive, "...faith is as much a choice on man's part as what he chooses to listen to." Nevertheless, as I said above, man does choose to believe, because God has done it in him both to will and to do, of God's good pleasure. We do freely choose to repent, as do all the Redeemed, and as is required of them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God looking forward to what He will do is circular. The only difference is that He hasn’t instigated it yet. So God choosing people according to the foreknowledge of what He will do means nothing more than God chose people according to His choosing people because what He would do in the future is based on His choice before creation. The election took place before creation not after, so God didn’t have to look forward to see what He would do in order to make His decision on whom He would choose because the choice was already made before creation. That’s like me saying that I’m going to build a house next week so I’ll decide now to build a house next week. This would be an example of me choosing to do something based on what I’m going to do in the future.

And no that’s not my position at all. God’s election is based on His foreknowledge of who will repent and abide in Christ. That’s not circular, it’s linear.
Which part is which in your translation, that God choosing according to his foreknowledge = "God looking forward to what he will do"? Which, in your mind, does Calvinism say is God's choosing, and which is God's foreknowledge? But once you've ironed all that out, ironically, is the fact that how you interpret it is irrelevant, because of the use of the term, "according to". It means "in keeping with", not even "as a result of". And so we are back to square one: Is biblical 'foreknowledge' about "looking down the corridors of time", or about what God has decreed and indeed will bring to pass?
 
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John Mullally

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Also, you insist on the notion that Calvinism teaches that God forces a change of will on a person against their will. Yes, when your words are reduced to their meaning and use, it becomes that clumsy and silly to say. It is more than awkward, it's not even cogent. Regeneration, among other descriptions, is that change to a person's will. But it is not done against their will, nor is it done with their cooperation. (To put it in crass terms), it is not done with their consent —they are not even consulted, nor aware that it is going to happen, until it has already happened; their will has been bypassed on the matter. How can the fetus cooperate with their birth? How can the dead cooperate with their resurrection?
I stated the following earlier:

Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”​

You say that God does not violate man's will because in this pre-faith regeneration (asserted by Calvinists) he bypassed man's will by working secretly. It is kind of like someone saying they did not violate my will when they secretly helped themselves to funds in my bank account. This involuntary pre-faith regeneration is performed so secretly that it is not mentioned in the Bible. If that really is a thing, there would have been no need for Paul to be struck blind with the thundering rebuke from Jesus while on the road to Damascas. Paul could have been made to come to his senses via the gentler more secretive pre-faith regeneration ascribed by Calvinist. Peter promises receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after men repent in response to the Gospel (Acts 2:38) - if they got it pre-faith, he could not make that promise.

There is not two classes of faith in God (salvific and other) described in the Bible. Again, the Bible indicates faith in God involves man's choice as Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God - and men have the ability to choose what they listen to.
 
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GodsGrace101

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God desires all men be saved. Everything is according to God's timing. That is why there is a New Covenant that began with the resurrection and was first hinted at just days earlier at the last supper. Even the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. Adam's sin opened the door to the operation of satan on earth - to the point where Jesus termed him the ruler of this world. Prior to the resurrection, much remained hidden because God had to get satan's unwitting assistance.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​
In the New Covenant, we see that God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Christ's Propitiation for the sins of all humanity: 1 John 2:2 starts small with the first half of that verse saying that Jesus is the propition for our sins - where as you say the context is my little children and the second half of the verse expands the propitiation to cover the sins of the whole world. The sins of the whole world means every man's sin. Those who do not come to Christ are part of the whole world - if John meant to restrict it those that come to Christ he would have used a different phrase than "the whole world". Be careful not to add to scripture. 1 John 2:2 agrees with what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:6. And like I said earlier 1 Peter 2:1 shows that Christ also paid for false teachers on their way to perdition.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​
Where We All Should Agree:

a. The gospel appeal is for all: The gospel is for every man, woman, boy and girl. We should all agree (unless you affirm Hyper-Calvinism) that all are to be the recipients of the gospel offer.
b. The atonement is sufficient to save all: Christ’s death is sufficient for all. Everyone should agree that the value of Christ’s atoning work is sufficient to cover the sins of every man, woman, boy and girl.​
c. The atonement only benefits those who believe: Christ’s death is only efficacious for those who believe. Every Christian should agree that the saving benefit (efficacy) of the atoning work of Christ is limited to those who believe (regardless of how you think the lost come to believe).​
Where We All Should Agree:
a. The gospel appeal......

What does hyper-calvinism have anything to do with anything?
They believe exactly the same as moderate calvinists, except they're not afraid of stating it
and have a harder and more unloving attitude toward their felllow man.

Nice post BTW.
We need some new blood...
: )
 
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Mark Quayle

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I stated the following earlier:

Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”​

You say that God does not violate man's will because in this pre-faith regeneration (asserted by Calvinists) he bypassed man's will by working secretly. It is kind of like someone saying they did not violate my will when they secretly helped themselves to funds in my bank account. This involuntary pre-faith regeneration is performed so secretly that it is not mentioned in the Bible. If that really is a thing, there would have been no need for Paul to be struck blind with the thundering rebuke from Jesus while on the road to Damascas. Paul could have been made to come to his senses via the gentler more secretive pre-faith regeneration ascribed by Calvinist. Peter promises receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after men repent in response to the Gospel (Acts 2:38) - if they got it pre-faith, he could not make that promise.

There is not two classes of faith in God (salvific and other) described in the Bible. Again, the Bible indicates faith in God involves man's choice as Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God - and men have the ability to choose what they listen to.
You were wrong in your statement. Calvinism does not teach that anyone is regenerated against their depraved will. It teaches that their will is not consulted —not causal, not resisting nor consenting, in their regeneration. It is, therefore, not against their will.

And no I do not say he does it secretly nor openly. He merely does it. For some it is immediately evident to them and to others, not, until they (like some you too have probably heard say it) realized that they believed.

Your sarcasm not withstanding, it is not secret in the Bible. It is even more plain than the notion that 1 Timothy 2:4 teaches that God intends but is unable to save everyone.

Is there no clear distinction between the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within you, and being filled with the Holy Spirit? I think you are conflating the two.

Why should God do it the way you think Calvinists present it. God does it all sorts of ways. I would even argue that your notion of 'before' is irrelevant as to sequence of causation. You give humans way too much credit in their ontology.
 
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5thKingdom

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God desires all men be saved.

Where does the Bible teach that?
Are you sure it does not teach He desires all or "His Sheep" to be saved?


Everything is according to God's timing. That is why there is a New Covenant that began with the resurrection and was first hinted at just days earlier at the last supper. Even the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. Adam's sin opened the door to the operation of satan on earth - to the point where Jesus termed him the ruler of this world. Prior to the resurrection, much remained hidden because God had to get satan's unwitting assistance.

Of course, NONE OF THIS has anything to do with the subject.

5thKingdom said:
The Gospel is clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or that "their sins should be forgiven them".



Christ's Propitiation for the sins of all humanity: 1 John 2:2 starts small with the first half of that verse saying that Jesus is the propition for our sins -​


Yes... but WHAT is the CONTEXT of the word "our"...
does it represent everyone born (no, it does not)
does it represent all of "His Sheep" (yes)

L
OOK at the CONTEXT of the word "our"


Jn 2:1-2
My little children, [this is the CONTEXT of who is included in the word "our"]
these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our [all of His little children's] sins: and not for ours only, but also[after the Great Commission]
for the sins of the whole world [all of His little children in the world].


When you understand the Context of the passage is "MY little children" then (and only then) can you understand
the MEANING of the word "our".


Where We All Should Agree:

a. The gospel appeal is for all: The gospel is for every man, woman, boy and girl. We should all agree (unless you affirm Hyper-Calvinism) that all are to be the recipients of the gospel offer.​


No, that is not correct.
The Gospel is about the finished work of Christ.
The Gospel is NOT an offer to save anyone since some mean were NEVER MEANT to be saved [Mark 4:11-12]


b. The atonement is sufficient to save all: Christ’s death is sufficient for all. Everyone should agree that the value of Christ’s atoning work is sufficient to cover the sins of every man, woman, boy and girl.​


The Atonement was sufficient to save all of "His Sheep"
The Bible never teaches the Atonement paid for the "tares/goats" in the church (sown by Satan)
and the Bible certainly NOT teach Christ paid for the sins of all the lost souls OUTSIDE the church.


c. The atonement only benefits those who believe: Christ’s death is only efficacious for those who believe. Every Christian should agree that the saving benefit (efficacy) of the atoning work of Christ is limited to those who believe (regardless of how you think the lost come to believe).​


Of course the Atonement only benefits "His Sheep"...
that is what I said above. It is a "Limited" Atonement which only applies to "His Sheep"

/
 
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