A tough questions for a blind man...

[Servant of the Lord]

You see I believe your supossed to keep the Sabath if in your heart you think its Gods command to you. but it is plainly written the gentiles received the Holy Spirit without conforming to any of the Jewish customs and laws,

The problem with your belief is that the Sabbath wasn't set aside for only the Jews. Were Adam and Eve Jewish?

Christ did not say the Sabbath was made for only Jews. He said it was made for man.

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mark 2:27-28
​

 

[k4c]

You must have missed this question...

Originally Posted by ricker

Any luck finding where we Gentiles are inheritors of the law given to the nation of Israel through Moses? (We are inheritors of the Promise given to Abraham.)
​

There is only the old covenant and the new covenant. Tell me, who was the new covenant made with?

 

[ricker]

Everything I post and all my beliefs come right from the Bible..

OK, let's see.

The Ten Commandments are written in stone with God's own finger. They apply to all of mankind.

Where does the Bible say all the Ten apply to all mankind?

God then uses the seventh day, which was first blessed, sanctified and called holy at creation and then placed in God's Law to protect it and goes one step further and uses the Sabbath as a sign of the covenant He makes with Israel.

How can you protect one day that happened at the end of creation week?
Where is this one step farther stuff when the explanation given in Exodus 31 is before he gave Israel the tablets? (Read my Bible quote again)

The seventh day was blessed and called holy at creation and protected by Law for all creation

Where is this in the Bible?

but not all God's creation need to use it as a sign of the covenant God made with Israel.

I'm confused. Others can keep it, but not as a sign? Bible verses please.

But even though, it still testifies of a creation and it's Creator and is protected by Law above and beyond it's use as a sign of a covenant.

Please show me the Scriptural verification of this.

Even Gentiles in the old covenant who wanted to honor God had to keep it holy, even though they were not part of the covenant.

Can you show me anyone who did this? The only ones I know of were the ones living with the Israelites, who of course were obliged to abide by their laws.

When you lie, murder, commit adultery, forget the Sabbath and so on you're breaking God's Law, not a covenant made with Israel. But even more important to understand, you're hurting relationships.

Can you find Biblical proof that the Sabbath was given to anyone besides Israel? Are all of the ceremonial laws given to Israel still in effect? Where do you find in the Bible that Gentile Christians breaking the Sabbath given the nation of Israel will hurt relationships?


Thanks

 

[ricker]

You must have missed this question...

Any luck finding where we Gentiles are inheritors of the law given to the nation of Israel through Moses? (We are inheritors of the Promise given to Abraham.)
​

[/size]
There is only the old covenant and the new covenant. Tell me, who was the new covenant made with?

Apparently you can't answer my question to your satisfaction. We are told we are children of the Promise given to Abraham (which is by faith without law). Can you place us as inheritors of the law, like the BIble says we are inheritors of the Promise??

 

[k4c]

OK, let's see.

Where does the Bible say all the Ten apply to all mankind?

How can you protect one day that happened at the end of creation week?
Where is this one step farther stuff when the explanation given in Exodus 31 is before he gave Israel the tablets? (Read my Bible quote again)

Where is this in the Bible?

I'm confused. Others can keep it, but not as a sign? Bible verses please.

Please show me the Scriptural verification of this.

Can you show me anyone who did this? The only ones I know of were the ones living with the Israelites, who of course were obliged to abide by their laws.

Can you find Biblical proof that the Sabbath was given to anyone besides Israel? Are all of the ceremonial laws given to Israel still in effect? Where do you find in the Bible that Gentile Christians breaking the Sabbath given the nation of Israel will hurt relationships?

Thanks

I've given answers to these questions a hundred times over. They are simple but time consuming so what I will say to you is search my posts and you will find the answer to all these questions. That's if you really want the answer anyway, which is something I rarely find with those who reject truth.

 

[ricker]

I've given answers to these questions a hundred times over. They are simple but time consuming so what I will say to you is search my posts and you will find the answer to all these questions. That's if you really want the answer anyway, which is something I rarely find with those who reject truth.

I'll make it simple and just use one of your beliefs you say is Biblical.

The seventh day was blessed and called holy at creation and protected by Law for all creation

Please show me where the Sabbath is protected by law for all creation in the Bible and I will be an Adventist.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Please show me where the Sabbath is protected by law for all creation in the Bible and I will be an Adventist.

Mark 2:27,28
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

A few things to look at in this verse...

1) The Sabbath of creation was not just an arbitrary day that God rested, it was made, created, for a purpose... for us.

2)This verse also shows us that the Sabbath wasn't only for the Jews. It was for mankind. Thats includes ALL of us.

3) Jesus claims dominion of the Sabbath... just as He did at creation.

 

[k4c]

Please show me where the Sabbath is protected by law for all creation in the Bible and I will be an Adventist.

Well, we know the seventh day was blessed and declared holy at creation.

Genesis 2:3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he ceased this work of creation.

We know that God commandmands creation to remember to keep it holy. The word remember is pointing us back to the time and day when God declared it holy.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The fact that He places the Sabbath within His Law tells us He is protecting it. The information within the fourth commandment itself tells us that it's for all creation, not just Jewish people.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male slave, nor your female slave, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So who is the Sabbath protected for?

1. Sons and daughters.
2. Male and female slaves.
3. Working animales.
4. Strangers.

Every creature must keep the Sabbath holy. And yes, even Gentiles.

Isaiah 56:6 As for the Gentiles, the outsiders who join the people of the Lord and serve Him and love His name, and are His servants and don't desecrate the Sabbath, and have accepted his covenant and promises.

Acts 13:42 And as Paul and Barnabas were going out, the Gentiles kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.

In other words, all creation.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

When would you like to be baptized?

 

[ricker]

Mark 2:27,28
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

A few things to look at in this verse...

1) The Sabbath of creation was not just an arbitrary day that God rested, it was made, created, for a purpose... for us.

2)This verse also shows us that the Sabbath wasn't only for the Jews. It was for mankind. Thats includes ALL of us.

3) Jesus claims dominion of the Sabbath... just as He did at creation.

Wish as you may, verse does not say "mankind".

 

[Kira Light]

Well, we know the seventh day was blessed and declared holy at creation.

Genesis 2:3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he ceased this work of creation.

We know that God commandmands creation to remember to keep it holy. The word remember is pointing us back to the time and day when God declared it holy.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The fact that He places the Sabbath within His Law tells us He is protecting it. The information within the fourth commandment itself tells us that it's for all creation, not just Jewish people.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male slave, nor your female slave, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So who is the Sabbath protected for?

1. Sons and daughters.
2. Male and female slaves.
3. Working animales.
4. Strangers.

Every creature must keep the Sabbath holy. And yes, even Gentiles.

Isaiah 56:6 As for the Gentiles, the outsiders who join the people of the Lord and serve Him and love His name, and are His servants and don't desecrate the Sabbath, and have accepted his covenant and promises.

Acts 13:42 And as Paul and Barnabas were going out, the Gentiles kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.

In other words, all creation.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

When would you like to be baptized?

k4c is the master at smashing dozens of verses together out of context to arrive at his conclusion.

 

[Joe67]

Keeping holy the 7th day of the week Sabbath day crucifies the world unto us.

What can crucify us unto the world?

Gal 6:10-18
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. KJV

Joe

 

[ricker]

[;57070402]Well, we know the seventh day was blessed and declared holy at creation.

Genesis 2:3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he ceased this work of creation.

We know that God commandmands creation to remember to keep it holy. The word remember is pointing us back to the time and day when God declared it holy.

Which in the case otf weekly Sabbath, is in Exodus 16........

The fact that He places the Sabbath within His Law tells us He is protecting it. The information within the fourth commandment itself tells us that it's for all creation, not just Jewish people.

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male slave, nor your female slave, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

This says nothing about all creation, but those "within your gates". Obviously those living with the Isrraelites would be required to follow their rules. We could imagine the COI would get Gentiles to work for them on the Sabbath if God didn't include this clause.

So who is the Sabbath protected for?

1. Sons and daughters.
2. Male and female slaves.
3. Working animales.
4. Strangers.

Yes, Israelites and those who were among them. Big surprise.

Every creature must keep the Sabbath holy. And yes, even Gentiles.

Isaiah 56:6 As for the Gentiles, the outsiders who join the people of the Lord and serve Him and love His name, and are His servants and don't desecrate the Sabbath, and have accepted his covenant and promises.

Yes, those Gentiles who joined the nation of Israel were required to obey their laws.

Acts 13:42 And as Paul and Barnabas were going out, the Gentiles kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.

In other words, all creation.

Gentiles wanted ot hear of Jesus when Paul was preaching at the synagogue. Is this really a clear verse demanding resting on the seventh day for all creation?

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

When would you like to be baptized?

[/quote]


I was baptized in November of 1972, thanks!

 

[k4c]

Yes, Israelites and those who were among them. Big surprise.

Yes, those Gentiles who joined the nation of Israel were required to obey their laws.

It's still that way.

The new covenant is made with the house of Israel, Gentiles are grafted in.

Hebrews 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming,'' says the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

This is you without Jesus.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Through Christ we are grafted into the house hold of Israel, of which the new covenant is made with.

In this, God will write His Law in your heart and mind and they won't be a burden to you.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Keeping the commandments of God without being burdened by them shows that they have been written on the heart and manifest love for God ad man.

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

The Ten Commandments were not done away with and nor are you separate from them if you are grafted in.

Would you like to be rebaptized with this new found truth?

 

[Joe67]

The Seed is One.

The Head contains the ears to hear, the eyes to see, the mouth to speak and the nose to smell.

The Body is One with many parts.

The arm and finger are parts of the Body, yet governed by the Head.

ALL of the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD.

The WORD has Head and Body.

The foot is useful, but let us not lift it up against the Head.

The Head will not deny/despise his Footstool.

Joe

 

[ricker]

[=k4c;57070567]It's still that way.

The new covenant is made with the house of Israel, Gentiles are grafted in.

Hebrews 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming,'' says the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The passage in Hebrews 8 is quoting the passage in Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:13 says: "13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear"

This is you without Jesus.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Context is important. Before your quoted verse, Eph. 2 says: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." I think that passage is actually more relevant to the discussion we are having.

Through Christ we are grafted into the house hold of Israel, of which the new covenant is made with.

We are inheritors of the Promise to Abraham. Any indication we are inheritors of the law given to the Israelites at Sinai?

In this, God will write His Law in your heart and mind and they won't be a burden to you.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Again this is quoting the old covenant promise to Israel given in Jeremiah. Refer again to Hebrews 8:13 written to the Gentile believers.

Keeping the commandments of God without being burdened by them shows that they have been written on the heart and manifest love for God ad man.

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Amen. (I imagine your mind somehow jumps to exclusively the ten commandments when neither context or verse suggests it, however.)

The Ten Commandments were not done away with and nor are you separate from them if you are grafted in.

You haven't shown me the sign of the Sabbath, said to be given exclusively to Israel, contained in the ten is now binding on Christians. Find the passage for me that says Gentile believers are now under the law.

Would you like to be rebaptized with this new found truth?[/

To be honest I don't believe in rebaptism. Where is that found in Scripture?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Wish as you may, verse does not say "mankind".

You are going to be that hardened to what the passage is saying to make a comment like that? Since when doesn't 'man' in the general sense not mean 'mankind'? You do understand the meaning of the word 'man kind'? Go back to Genesis and look at the word 'kind'. It means species...
Unless you are of a different species than 'man' it refers to you as well.

Why do people think that the Israelites were any different physiologically from everyone else on the planet? Apparantly many do, because they reject the health message of the clean vs unclean as for the Jews only, like our bodies are any different. When God gives a message to the human race it is for all His creation, we are not seperated by race, creed or belief. If Jesus died for ALL then we are ALL the same...

 

[Joe67]

Rom 2:13
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. KJV

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. KJV

Rom 3:26
that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
KJV

Rom 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV

Rom 3:30
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. KJV

Rom 4:5
believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
KJV

Rom 4:12
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. KJV

Rom 4:14-16
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, KJV

Truly, the legally formed mind stumbles at these apparently contradictory witnesses of the Spirit of Jesus; by first denying that they are apparently contradictory and then adding more words to support the apostolic authority. The legally formed mind picks one side against the other as the complete truth of God in Christ.

Truly, the philosophically formed mind draws back at this apparently contradictory witnesses of the Spirit of Jesus and turns from Scripture for understanding and mingles humanistic principles to counsel the Lord.

Joe

 

[ricker]

You are going to be that hardened to what the passage is saying to make a comment like that? Since when doesn't 'man' in the general sense not mean 'mankind'? You do understand the meaning of the word 'man kind'? Go back to Genesis and look at the word 'kind'. It means species...
Unless you are of a different species than 'man' it refers to you as well.

Why do people think that the Israelites were any different physiologically from everyone else on the planet? Apparantly many do, because they reject the health message of the clean vs unclean as for the Jews only, like our bodies are any different. When God gives a message to the human race it is for all His creation, we are not seperated by race, creed or belief. If Jesus died for ALL then we are ALL the same...

First of all why do you call the clean/unclean laws a health message? Does the Bible mention health? God used all kinds of laws and signs to separate Israel from the other nations, many of them SDA's don't follow any more, either.

The word "man" can and does indeed sometimes mean "man specific", and not all mankind. Jesus was speaking with a Jewish audience, and are not Jews men?. Of all the Bible translations I checked, none of them said "mankind".

 

[k4c]

First of all why do you call the clean/unclean laws a health message? Does the Bible mention health? God used all kinds of laws and signs to separate Israel from the other nations, many of them SDA's don't follow any more, either.

The word "man" can and does indeed sometimes mean "man specific", and not all mankind. Jesus was speaking with a Jewish audience, and are not Jews men?. Of all the Bible translations I checked, none of them said "mankind".

It seems to me, like many people I hear on these forums, God is sending strong delusion so that you should believe a lie.

There is a way about sinful man that has the ablility to reason away truth that has been plainly presented by God. When this is done, God sends strong delusion so that you will believe what you are saying.

 

[Cribstyl]

You are going to be that hardened to what the passage is saying to make a comment like that? Since when doesn't 'man' in the general sense not mean 'mankind'? You do understand the meaning of the word 'man kind'? Go back to Genesis and look at the word 'kind'. It means species...
Unless you are of a different species than 'man' it refers to you as well.

Why do people think that the Israelites were any different physiologically from everyone else on the planet? Apparantly many do, because they reject the health message of the clean vs unclean as for the Jews only, like our bodies are any different. When God gives a message to the human race it is for all His creation, we are not seperated by race, creed or belief. If Jesus died for ALL then we are ALL the same...

The passage in Hebrews 8 is quoting the passage in Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:13 says: "13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear"



Context is important. Before your quoted verse, Eph. 2 says: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." I think that passage is actually more relevant to the discussion we are having.


We are inheritors of the Promise to Abraham. Any indication we are inheritors of the law given to the Israelites at Sinai?



Again this is quoting the old covenant promise to Israel given in Jeremiah. Refer again to Hebrews 8:13 written to the Gentile believers.


Amen. (I imagine your mind somehow jumps to exclusively the ten commandments when neither context or verse suggests it, however.)



You haven't shown me the sign of the Sabbath, said to be given exclusively to Israel, contained in the ten is now binding on Christians. Find the passage for me that says Gentile believers are now under the law.

Great job Ricker,