A thought or two about Infant Baptism

[bbbbbbb]

I'd gladly include as much context from the chapter or book as you think is needed to make the meaning clear. I am confident that adding the context in the quotes will not alter the meaning even a little. John 3 will still be about being born from above by water and spirit, Titus 3 will still speak of a washing of regeneration that is certainly open to be seen as baptism, 1Peter 3 will still speak of the flood's waters which washed away a sinful 'world' and was instrumental in the salvation of Noah and his family, and it will still use that saving application of water as an analogy of baptism, Galatians 3 and Mark 16 will still say exactly what they say no matter how many more words from those books are included as context.

So, to be blunt, context cannot be used to wash away the significance of baptism as it is stated in the verses I mentioned.

Yet, if you prefer to move on because the passages are seen differently by you and if you choose not to offer a defence of your interpretations nor state your interpretations I will understand.

It is a difficult thing to see verses from the perspective of someone who disagrees with you.

Since you are being so persistent I will address each of your verses in individual posts which we can examine in greater detail.

Your first snippet was "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"

Here it is within its context:

John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

In the passage Jesus told Nicodemus that being born of flesh and water was insufficient to see the kingdom of God. One must be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus contrasted human birth (through water, i.e. amniotic fluid which is produced at physical birth) to spiritual birth (through the agency of God, the Holy Spirit).

There is no mention of baptism whatsoever in this passage nor even the slightest whiff of it. John the Baptist had just begun his ministry and it would be a considerable time later that Jesus and his disciples would introduce a new form of baptism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the passage Jesus told Nicodemus that being born of flesh and water was insufficient to see the kingdom of God. One must be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus contrasted human birth (through water, i.e. amniotic fluid which is produced at physical birth) to spiritual birth (through the agency of God, the Holy Spirit).

Yes, this is accurate. Jesus says in John 3:3-7, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The Catholic Church teaches that this spiritual birth, also known as Baptism, is necessary for salvation and incorporation into the Body of Christ. In Titus 3:5, it says, "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

In summary, Catholic teaching affirms that being physically born is not enough for entrance into the Kingdom of God. One must also undergo spiritual rebirth through Baptism, which is brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit.

From a Catholic perspective, the interpretation of "born of water" in John 3:5 as referring to amniotic fluid is not considered the most credible, given the Greek text and the way people in first-century Palestine understood the language.

The Greek text of John 3:5 literally says "born of water and Spirit", but the exact meaning of "water" in this context is debated among scholars. While some argue that it refers to amniotic fluid, others suggest that it refers to the waters of Baptism, which was a common rite of initiation into the Jewish community and the early Christian Church.

Additionally, in the first-century Palestinian context, the concept of physical birth was often associated with purification and cleansing, and "water" was often used as a symbol of spiritual purification and renewal. This interpretation is consistent with the wider context of John's Gospel, where water is frequently used as a symbol of spiritual cleansing and renewal, and is further reinforced by the reference to the Holy Spirit in the same verse.

Therefore, while the interpretation of "born of water" as referring to amniotic fluid is possible, it is not considered the most credible or widely accepted among Catholic scholars and theologians. The more widely accepted understanding is that "born of water" refers to the sacrament of Baptism and spiritual renewal.

 

[Hawkins]

In a nutshell, NT is about believing Jesus Christ, with consent. So only those believe with consent are entilted to be saved. While the significance of baptism is to signify a switch from an old covenant to the the New one with consent. For that reason, infant baptism is just a human practice with no biblical meaning.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, this is accurate. Jesus says in John 3:3-7, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God...That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The Catholic Church teaches that this spiritual birth, also known as Baptism, is necessary for salvation and incorporation into the Body of Christ. In Titus 3:5, it says, "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

In summary, Catholic teaching affirms that being physically born is not enough for entrance into the Kingdom of God. One must also undergo spiritual rebirth through Baptism, which is brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit.

From a Catholic perspective, the interpretation of "born of water" in John 3:5 as referring to amniotic fluid is not considered the most credible, given the Greek text and the way people in first-century Palestine understood the language.

The Greek text of John 3:5 literally says "born of water and Spirit", but the exact meaning of "water" in this context is debated among scholars. While some argue that it refers to amniotic fluid, others suggest that it refers to the waters of Baptism, which was a common rite of initiation into the Jewish community and the early Christian Church.

Additionally, in the first-century Palestinian context, the concept of physical birth was often associated with purification and cleansing, and "water" was often used as a symbol of spiritual purification and renewal. This interpretation is consistent with the wider context of John's Gospel, where water is frequently used as a symbol of spiritual cleansing and renewal, and is further reinforced by the reference to the Holy Spirit in the same verse.

Therefore, while the interpretation of "born of water" as referring to amniotic fluid is possible, it is not considered the most credible or widely accepted among Catholic scholars and theologians. The more widely accepted understanding is that "born of water" refers to the sacrament of Baptism and spiritual renewal.

Pardon my delay in replying, but I have been busy.

I see no point in continuing our discussion in regard to John 3. I understand the Catholic theology and it seems that you also understand the contextual approach that I presented.


Moving along, we have Titus 3:5,

"3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."

Here Paul states not once, but twice that Christians are not saved on the basis of deed which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy and that we are justified by His grace. Any way you slice or dice it, baptism is a deed of righteousness. Either God saves people because of deeds such as baptism which are done in righteousness or He saves them by His mercy and grace. Paul makes it crystal clear that it is the latter and not the former means, but the Catholic Church co-mingles the two so that one cannot be saved without the other.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Any way you slice or dice it, baptism is a deed of righteousness.

From a Catholic perspective, baptism is not primarily viewed as a public profession of faith, but rather as a sacrament in which God confers grace. The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of baptism is a gift from God that transforms the person being baptised, making them a new creation in Christ and incorporating them into the Church. This grace is not earned or deserved, but is freely given by God in response to the faith of the person being baptised or the faith of the parents and godparents in the case of infant baptism. The Catholic Church considers the grace of baptism to be a foundational aspect of the Christian life, and it is seen as the starting point for a lifelong journey of faith and growth in righteousness.

This view of baptism is supported by various official Church documents, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states that "Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe" (Paragraph 1253). In addition, the Code of Canon Law states that "Through baptism men and women are freed from original sin, are reborn as children of God and made members of the Church. By this sacrament they are incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ and made sharers in the divine life" (Canon 849). These official Church documents highlight the importance of baptism in the Catholic Church and its role in conferring grace and transforming the lives of those who receive it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

From a Catholic perspective, baptism is not primarily viewed as a public profession of faith, but rather as a sacrament in which God confers grace. The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of baptism is a gift from God that transforms the person being baptised, making them a new creation in Christ and incorporating them into the Church. This grace is not earned or deserved, but is freely given by God in response to the faith of the person being baptized or the faith of the parents and godparents in the case of infant baptism. The Catholic Church considers the grace of baptism to be a foundational aspect of the Christian life, and it is seen as the starting point for a lifelong journey of faith and growth in righteousness.

This view of baptism is supported by various official Church documents, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states that "Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe" (Paragraph 1253). In addition, the Code of Canon Law states that "Through baptism men and women are freed from original sin, are reborn as children of God and made members of the Church. By this sacrament they are incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ and made sharers in the divine life" (Canon 849). These official Church documents highlight the importance of baptism in the Catholic Church and its role in conferring grace and transforming the lives of those who receive it.

Unfortunately, you did not respond to my exegesis of Titus 3:5. Therefore, I can only conclude that you are in agreement with myself.

What you have provided is the standard Catholic rhetoric concerning the sacrament of baptism - a work of righteousness, as are all Catholic sacraments in which the obedient participant, either knowingly or unknowingly, is thought to receive a portion of God's grace.

Moving along, let us have a brief look at the passage in I Peter 3.

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

This is a very curious passage in a very curious chapter of a very curious epistle. Unlike Paul, who carefully structured his epistles, especially to the Romans, in a clearly defined manner, Peter skips around from topic to topic without any clearly defined goal.

Breaking into a chapter which commences with instructions to wives, in verse 18 Peter dives deep into Christology with the core purpose of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Verse 19, which is unique in the New Testament in its content, informs us that in spirit (not in the flesh) Jesus Christ made some form of proclamation to other spirits now in prison. There are innumerable beliefs concerning the nature of the proclamation - from one extreme of proclamation of release to the other extreme of proclamation of damnation - as well as what this spiritual prison actually is and its occupants - from Sheol to hell to Purgatory and from demons to sinners to saints. The bottom line with this verse is that we simply cannot say with any certainty what Peter meant.

However, that is not our concern here. In verse 20 Peter continues his thought by relating those spirits to those of mankind in the days of Noah (thus casting serious doubt that these were saints in Purgatory) lending support to the understanding that these spirits were sinners from the Flood and the proclamation was one of eternal damnation. At the latter section of the verse Peter emphasizes the patience of God in the time of Noah who was saved, with seven other members of his family from the waters of the Flood. The waters are not presented as being salvific: to the contrary they are presented as the means of God's destruction (a means which Peter subsequently in his second epistle makes clear will never be used again; rather the final destruction will be by fire).

Verse 21 appears to contravene the last part of verse 20 at first sight. How does the water of the Flood, which was an agent of God's wrath compare with the water of baptism? Peter does make it clear that the water of baptism does, indeed, serve in the removal of dirt from the flesh, but not anything more than that. He emphasizes that the appeal to God for a good conscience through the agency of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is what saves an individual. He concludes in verse 22 by picking up again on the Christological theme by summarizing the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven with all the heavenly host being subject to Him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Unfortunately, you did not respond to my exegesis of Titus 3:5. Therefore, I can only conclude that you are in agreement with myself.

That would be a misunderstanding. I am not in agreement with it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Here Paul states not once, but twice that Christians are not saved on the basis of deed which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy and that we are justified by His grace. Any way you slice or dice it, baptism is a deed of righteousness. Either God saves people because of deeds such as baptism which are done in righteousness or He saves them by His mercy and grace. Paul makes it crystal clear that it is the latter and not the former means, but the Catholic Church co-mingles the two so that one cannot be saved without the other.

You claim that baptism is not a good work that saves a person. By good work it appears that you mean a good work done by the person who is baptised. So I pointed you to this:

From a Catholic perspective, baptism is not primarily viewed as a public profession of faith, but rather as a sacrament in which God confers grace. The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of baptism is a gift from God that transforms the person being baptised, making them a new creation in Christ and incorporating them into the Church. This grace is not earned or deserved, but is freely given by God in response to the faith of the person being baptised or the faith of the parents and godparents in the case of infant baptism. The Catholic Church considers the grace of baptism to be a foundational aspect of the Christian life, and it is seen as the starting point for a lifelong journey of faith and growth in righteousness.​

Baptism is a good work that God performs. It is not a human work at all. It is God's work, his grace, his gift. The person baptised is passive. The person baptised receives the grace without doing anything to earn it or deserve it.

Why does God perform this good work, give this saving gift? Because it delights him to do so, because he promises to do so, because it fulfils his purposes.

What role does human faith play? For the individual baptised when the individual is of sufficient age to understand the sacrament and has been catechised to understand it, God's gift is seen to be a response from God, fulfilling his promise regarding faith and baptism (Mark 16:16, John 3:5). When the individual baptised is an infant then the faith exercised is from the parents and/or godparents and God responds according to his promises (Acts 2:38,39).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Verse 21 appears to contravene the last part of verse 20 at first sight. How does the water of the Flood, which was an agent of God's wrath compare with the water of baptism?

Saint Peter is quite clear in the passage. He teaches that the flood saved eight people, Noah and his family. They were the "faithful" of that time. The flood's waters saved them by condemning the world of wicked people. Genesis adds to the explanation, and Peter, being an Israelite and instructed in the old testament scriptures, writes as one who knows the story. Christians today may not be as familiar with the old testament as Saint Peter was. That may explain why many have difficulty with the passage. After noting that the waters of the flood saved the faithful of that time, saint Peter goes on to make the connection between Christian baptism which saves the faithful of his time and ours, "it is baptism which now saves you", says saint Peter. And saint Peter explains that it is not by washing away earthly dirt that baptism saves but by the request that the faithful make for a cleansed conscience by having their sins washed away.

1 Peter 3:20-21 teaches:

Because unfaithful people of the antediluvian world refused to repent, God sent a flood to destroy them all. But he saved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others with him when he boarded the ark. Through faith, Noah built an ark to save his family from the flood.​

​

From a Catholic perspective, these verses highlight the importance of repentance and faith. The passage describes the consequences of not repenting of one's sins, which in this case was the destruction of the world through a flood. However, God saved Noah, who was a righteous man, through his faith. Noah demonstrated his faith by building an ark to save his family from the flood. This passage serves as a reminder that those who have faith in God will be saved, even in the face of destruction.​

​

1 Peter 3:21 states: "And baptism, which this prefigures, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

From a Catholic perspective, this verse refers to the sacrament of baptism and its significance in the Christian faith. The verse says that baptism "saves you," not as a physical cleaning of the body, but as a spiritual purification of the soul. The reference to a "clear conscience" refers to the removal of sin and guilt through the washing with water in the sacrament of baptism. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is central to this process, as it represents the triumph of life over death and the power of redemption through faith. In this way, the verse highlights the transformative power of baptism, which is seen as a rite of initiation into the Christian community and a spiritual renewal of the soul.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

This is what infants specifically don't do - that believers actually do -- infants don't make " an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

The very thing that saves according to 1 Peter 3 - is the very thing infants cannot do . No wonder there is no NT record of infants being baptized..

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is what infants specifically don't do - that believers actually do -- infants don't make " an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Earlier I wrote

What role does human faith play? For the individual baptised when the individual is of sufficient age to understand the sacrament and has been catechised to understand it, God's gift is seen to be a response from God, fulfilling his promise regarding faith and baptism (Mark 16:16, John 3:5). When the individual baptised is an infant then the faith exercised is from the parents and/or godparents and God responds according to his promises (Acts 2:38,39).

 

[BobRyan]

ok so Peter says --

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ


This is what infants specifically don't do - that believers actually do -- infants don't make " an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

1. Infants don't make "appeals to God"
2. Infants don't understand abstract concepts like "a good conscience"
3. Infants don't understand history or resurrection of Christ

What role does human faith play?

1. Without faith it is impossible to please God -

Heb 11:
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

When the individual baptised is an infant then the faith exercised is from the parents and/or godparents

No example of such a baptism in all of scripture - and no statement in the faith texts above talks about one person's faith substituted for another person's faith. Rather each one stands on their own -- salvation is 1-1 between the person and God in every text of scripture where faith and salvation are discussed.

==========================================

Your position at that point rests on claims for which there is no Bible affirmation

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No example of such a baptism in all of scripture

Agreed, no explicit example of an infant being baptised is recorded, however it is implied that the children (where they existed) were included in household baptisms. And the old covenant had infant circumcision which set the stage, so to speak, for infant baptism. That is how Catholics and many others too see the matter. You and Seventh Day Adventists see it differently along with Baptists and various others. You do not need to agree with Catholics. I do not agree with Seventh Day Adventists.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed, no explicit example of an infant being baptised is recorded, however it is implied that the children (where they existed) were included in household baptisms. And the old covenant had infant circumcision which set the stage, so to speak, for infant baptism. That is how Catholics and many others too see the matter. You and Seventh Day Adventists see it differently along with Baptists and various others. You do not need to agree with Catholics. I do not agree with Seventh Day Adventists.

It can also be implied that slaves and servants, apart from any belief on their part, were part of the household and, therefore, were baptized.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That would be a misunderstanding. I am not in agreement with it.

You have yet to clarify the precise disagreement with the exegetical position I hold. Please discuss the passage and show me how you can derive a synergistic position from it. Do you agree with my assessment of the Catholic church's position?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You claim that baptism is not a good work that saves a person. By good work it appears that you mean a good work done by the person who is baptised. So I pointed you to this:

From a Catholic perspective, baptism is not primarily viewed as a public profession of faith, but rather as a sacrament in which God confers grace. The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of baptism is a gift from God that transforms the person being baptised, making them a new creation in Christ and incorporating them into the Church. This grace is not earned or deserved, but is freely given by God in response to the faith of the person being baptised or the faith of the parents and godparents in the case of infant baptism. The Catholic Church considers the grace of baptism to be a foundational aspect of the Christian life, and it is seen as the starting point for a lifelong journey of faith and growth in righteousness.​

Baptism is a good work that God performs. It is not a human work at all. It is God's work, his grace, his gift. The person baptised is passive. The person baptised receives the grace without doing anything to earn it or deserve it.

Why does God perform this good work, give this saving gift? Because it delights him to do so, because he promises to do so, because it fulfils his purposes.

What role does human faith play? For the individual baptised when the individual is of sufficient age to understand the sacrament and has been catechised to understand it, God's gift is seen to be a response from God, fulfilling his promise regarding faith and baptism (Mark 16:16, John 3:5). When the individual baptised is an infant then the faith exercised is from the parents and/or godparents and God responds according to his promises (Acts 2:38,39).

I would be amazed if you believe that no human effort is required to obtain the grace of God through baptism. From my understanding, this is, indeed a Catholic sacramental work of righteousness. The work is relatively simple, involving two primary and one secondary participants. First, there is the individual who is being baptized. He must be present for this to occur. The second is the priest administering the baptism. Without him, there can be no legitimate baptism (this would also include those those serve as proxies in emergency situations). The third would be any who would present an unwitting infant for baptism, including parents and godparents. They are only necessary in the case of the baptism of unwitting individuals. The baptism ought to take place within a sacred space, although there are exceptions and ought to be performed with water, although there are also exceptions to that. Without these, God's grace will be withheld.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Saint Peter is quite clear in the passage. He teaches that the flood saved eight people, Noah and his family. They were the "faithful" of that time. The flood's waters saved them by condemning the world of wicked people. Genesis adds to the explanation, and Peter, being an Israelite and instructed in the old testament scriptures, writes as one who knows the story. Christians today may not be as familiar with the old testament as Saint Peter was. That may explain why many have difficulty with the passage. After noting that the waters of the flood saved the faithful of that time, saint Peter goes on to make the connection between Christian baptism which saves the faithful of his time and ours, "it is baptism which now saves you", says saint Peter. And saint Peter explains that it is not by washing away earthly dirt that baptism saves but by the request that the faithful make for a cleansed conscience by having their sins washed away.

1 Peter 3:20-21 teaches:

Because unfaithful people of the antediluvian world refused to repent, God sent a flood to destroy them all. But he saved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others with him when he boarded the ark. Through faith, Noah built an ark to save his family from the flood.​

​

From a Catholic perspective, these verses highlight the importance of repentance and faith. The passage describes the consequences of not repenting of one's sins, which in this case was the destruction of the world through a flood. However, God saved Noah, who was a righteous man, through his faith. Noah demonstrated his faith by building an ark to save his family from the flood. This passage serves as a reminder that those who have faith in God will be saved, even in the face of destruction.​

​

1 Peter 3:21 states: "And baptism, which this prefigures, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

From a Catholic perspective, this verse refers to the sacrament of baptism and its significance in the Christian faith. The verse says that baptism "saves you," not as a physical cleaning of the body, but as a spiritual purification of the soul. The reference to a "clear conscience" refers to the removal of sin and guilt through the washing with water in the sacrament of baptism. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is central to this process, as it represents the triumph of life over death and the power of redemption through faith. In this way, the verse highlights the transformative power of baptism, which is seen as a rite of initiation into the Christian community and a spiritual renewal of the soul.

Peter clearly states that Noah and his family were saved through the waters of the flood, not that the water saved these people. If it had, then the all those were were fully inundated with the waters of the flood would, most assuredly, have been saved, at least spiritually. The water was the agent of God's wrath and destruction, not the agent of salvation.

Peter stresses that water, in and of itself, cannot save anyone, but only the appeal to God for a good conscience is effective. Anyone who bathes is engaging in baptism. That includes virtually all of mankind. Baptism is washing with water. Water may, indeed, wash away dirt from the flesh, but apart from faith in Jesus Christ, it only does that. Faith in Jesus Christ cannot be mystically transmitted from a believer to an unbeliever through the rite of baptism. If that were the case, then the Mormons have it correct with their innumerable proxy baptisms in their temples.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It can also be implied that slaves and servants, apart from any belief on their part, were part of the household and, therefore, were baptized.

Only if you think that the church disregards one's freedom of will. I do not think that was the case.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You have yet to clarify the precise disagreement with the exegetical position I hold.

I did in this post. And before that in this post.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I would be amazed if you believe that no human effort is required to obtain the grace of God through baptism.

That is exactly what I believe and exactly what I wrote.