A thought or two about Infant Baptism

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholic Church goes even further with its doctrine of "baptism by desire" where no priest or water are necessary.

Is the lack of a priest offensive to you?

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation, but there are exceptions for those who have "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood." This is the belief that an individual can attain salvation through a desire or willingness to be baptized, or through martyrdom, even if the sacrament of baptism is not physically administered.

Scripture references that support the doctrine of baptism of desire include:

• John 3:5, which states, "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'." The Church interprets this to mean that water baptism is necessary for salvation, but also allows for the possibility of the "Spirit" working through an individual's desire for baptism.
• 1 Peter 3:21, which states, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This passage is often interpreted to mean that the desire for baptism, symbolized by the "appeal to God," can serve as a substitute for the physical sacrament of baptism.
• The Council of Trent (1546) states "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema (cursed)".

In summary, Catholic Church holds that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation, but allows for the possibility of an individual attaining salvation through a desire or willingness to be baptized, or through martyrdom, even if the sacrament of baptism is not physically administered.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is the lack of a priest offensive to you?

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation, but there are exceptions for those who have "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood." This is the belief that an individual can attain salvation through a desire or willingness to be baptized, or through martyrdom, even if the sacrament of baptism is not physically administered.

Scripture references that support the doctrine of baptism of desire include:

• John 3:5, which states, "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'." The Church interprets this to mean that water baptism is necessary for salvation, but also allows for the possibility of the "Spirit" working through an individual's desire for baptism.
• 1 Peter 3:21, which states, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This passage is often interpreted to mean that the desire for baptism, symbolized by the "appeal to God," can serve as a substitute for the physical sacrament of baptism.
• The Council of Trent (1546) states "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema (cursed)".

In summary, Catholic Church holds that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation, but allows for the possibility of an individual attaining salvation through a desire or willingness to be baptized, or through martyrdom, even if the sacrament of baptism is not physically administered.

Neither the lack of a priest nor a specified mode is offensive to me. What I do find peculiar is the baptism of unwilling individuals.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

unwilling individuals.

I looked but could not find any.

 

[Der Alte]

In the Catholic Church, baptism is typically administered through the use of water, which is poured over the head of the person being baptized, while the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" are said. This is known as "affusion" or "pouring." This mode of baptism is based on the account of Jesus' baptism in the Gospels, where it is described that John the Baptist "baptized Jesus in the Jordan River" (Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, John 1:29-34).

The Catholic Church also recognizes baptism by immersion, where the person being baptized is fully submerged in water.

It's important to note that the Catholic Church teaches that the validity of baptism does not depend on the mode of administration, but rather on the use of the proper matter (water) and the proper form (the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit").

I am in agreement with this variation. While I agree that Greek baptizo from which baptize is derived means to immerse. Some people might be adverse to that. my present wife e.g. cannot tolerate her head being under water from a childhood experience with coming close to drowning.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I looked but could not find any.

I happen to know many, including myself, who were not consulted prior to being baptized.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I happen to know many, including myself, who were not consulted prior to being baptized.

You think of that as "unwilling" rather than "passive and uninformed because you were an infant"?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You think of that as "unwilling" rather than "passive and uninformed because you were an infant"?

I was also circumcised without being consulted and definitely believe it to have been against sound judgement.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I was also circumcised without being consulted and definitely believe it to have been against sound judgement.

such is life

 

[bbbbbbb]

such is life

As they say, it is what it is.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I was also circumcised without being consulted and definitely believe it to have been against sound judgement.

Circumcision, like baptism, is commanded by God as a sign of his covenant. Were you Jewish do you think you'd regret it? And since you are a Christian do you regret your baptism (as an infant)?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Circumcision, like baptism, is commanded by God as a sign of his covenant. Were you Jewish do you think you'd regret it? And since you are a Christian do you regret your baptism (as an infant)?

I cannot answer the hypothetical question as I am not Jewish and do not understand that culture. I had a religious rite performed on me as an infant called baptism which I perceive to have been ultimately pointless. I do not regret it because it caused no harm to myself, nor do I appreciate it because it caused no good to myself.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I cannot answer the hypothetical question as I am not Jewish and do not understand that culture. I had a religious rite performed on me as an infant called baptism which I perceive to have been ultimately pointless. I do not regret it because it caused no harm to myself, nor do I appreciate it because it caused no good to myself.

What do you think baptism does? Is it an effective means of grace or is it something without any effect of any kind?

 

[bbbbbbb]

What do you think baptism does? Is it an effective means of grace or is it something without any effect of any kind?

Baptism is not an effective means of grace. It does not cause an individual to receive the Holy Spirit (either permanently or even temporarily) nor does it cause the new birth from above. It is absurd to think that some sinner can perform a religious rite on another sinner and expect spiritual consequences to result simply because the rite has been performed according to a particular model.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Baptism is not an effective means of grace. It does not cause an individual to receive the Holy Spirit (either permanently or even temporarily) nor does it cause the new birth from above. It is absurd to think that some sinner can perform a religious rite on another sinner and expect spiritual consequences to result simply because the rite has been performed according to a particular model.

In Catholicism, God is seen as the ultimate source and giver of the grace and blessings that are received in the sacrament of baptism. The Catholic Church teaches that it is through the power of the Holy Spirit that the person being baptized is regenerated and made a new creation in Christ. It is also believed that it is through the action of God that the person being baptized is incorporated into the body of Christ and becomes a member of the Church.

While the minister of baptism, typically a priest or deacon, performs the physical rite of baptism, it is ultimately God who is the effective minister of the sacrament. The minister acts in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, and administers the sacrament in the name of the Church. But it is the grace and power of God that brings about the transformation in the person being baptized.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In Catholicism, God is seen as the ultimate source and giver of the grace and blessings that are received in the sacrament of baptism. The Catholic Church teaches that it is through the power of the Holy Spirit that the person being baptized is regenerated and made a new creation in Christ. It is also believed that it is through the action of God that the person being baptized is incorporated into the body of Christ and becomes a member of the Church.

While the minister of baptism, typically a priest or deacon, performs the physical rite of baptism, it is ultimately God who is the effective minister of the sacrament. The minister acts in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, and administers the sacrament in the name of the Church. But it is the grace and power of God that brings about the transformation in the person being baptized.

Yes, I understand the theology of the Catholic Church in regard to baptism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, I understand the theology of the Catholic Church in regard to baptism.

I wondered because your reply presented the priest or deacon (or whoever) as the minister of baptism who effects regeneration and so forth, which is not Catholic teaching.
You wrote:

" It is absurd to think that some sinner can perform a religious rite on another sinner and expect spiritual consequences to result simply because the rite has been performed according to a particular model."​

Catholics do not expect something to happen simply because the rite is correctly performed, Catholics expect something to happen because God promises something will happen at his hand, that is to say, God promises to do something himself when a person is baptised.

There are several verses in the Bible that the Catholic Church uses to show that God promises to effect spiritual change with baptism. Some of these include:

• John 3:5: "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"
• Titus 3:5: "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."
• 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
• Galatians 3:26-27: "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
• Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

These verses taken together tell that baptism is a sacrament, through which God grants the grace of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which enables people to enter into the kingdom of God, and also helps them to have a clear conscience.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As I

I wondered because your reply presented the priest or deacon (or whoever) as the minister of baptism who effects regeneration and so forth, which is not Catholic teaching.
You wrote:

" It is absurd to think that some sinner can perform a religious rite on another sinner and expect spiritual consequences to result simply because the rite has been performed according to a particular model."​

Catholics do not expect something to happen simply because the rite is correctly performed, Catholics expect something to happen because God promises something will happen at his hand, that is to say, God promises to do something himself when a person is baptised.

There are several verses in the Bible that the Catholic Church uses to show that God promises to effect spiritual change with baptism. Some of these include:

• John 3:5: "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"
• Titus 3:5: "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."
• 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
• Galatians 3:26-27: "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
• Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

These verses taken together tell that baptism is a sacrament, through which God grants the grace of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which enables people to enter into the kingdom of God, and also helps them to have a clear conscience.

I am certain you that know that I am not Catholic nor do I adhere to Catholic theology. A text out of context is a pretext for error. Hence, I reject Catholic eisegesis.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am certain you that know that I am not Catholic nor do I adhere to Catholic theology. A text out of context is a pretext for error. Hence, I reject Catholic eisegesis.

So harsh a judgement, yet the scriptures are read as written without much interpretation.

• "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'" - the interpretative effort is expended on "water" as implying baptism. Water being the element that John the Baptist used when baptising Jesus who received the Spirit (as a dove) when baptised. And it is also the element used when baptising Christians.
• "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." - the interpretive work is with "washing" being taken as washing with water in baptism which regenerates. Of course, as observed earlier, it is God who effects the regeneration not the water nor the priest, just God. Yet God chooses water to wash away sins and regenerate.
• "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." - no interpretive work is needed here, baptism saves you.
• "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ." - no interpretive work is needed. Baptism is into Christ and puts on Christ.
• "He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." - no interpretive work is needed here.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So harsh a judgement, yet the scriptures are read as written without much interpretation.

• "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'" - the interpretative effort is expended on "water" as implying baptism. Water being the element that John the Baptist used when baptising Jesus who received the Spirit (as a dove) when baptised. And it is also the element used when baptising Christians.
• "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." - the interpretive work is with "washing" being taken as washing with water in baptism which regenerates. Of course, as observed earlier, it is God who effects the regeneration not the water nor the priest, just God. Yet God chooses water to wash away sins and regenerate.
• "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." - no interpretive work is needed here, baptism saves you.
• "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ." - no interpretive work is needed. Baptism is into Christ and puts on Christ.
• "He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." - no interpretive work is needed here.

Again, I reiterate, "A text taken out of context is a pretext for error." These verses are plucked from their contexts to support faulty theology.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Again, I reiterate, "A text taken out of context is a pretext for error." These verses are plucked from their contexts to support faulty theology.

I'd gladly include as much context from the chapter or book as you think is needed to make the meaning clear. I am confident that adding the context in the quotes will not alter the meaning even a little. John 3 will still be about being born from above by water and spirit, Titus 3 will still speak of a washing of regeneration that is certainly open to be seen as baptism, 1Peter 3 will still speak of the flood's waters which washed away a sinful 'world' and was instrumental in the salvation of Noah and his family, and it will still use that saving application of water as an analogy of baptism, Galatians 3 and Mark 16 will still say exactly what they say no matter how many more words from those books are included as context.

So, to be blunt, context cannot be used to wash away the significance of baptism as it is stated in the verses I mentioned.

Yet, if you prefer to move on because the passages are seen differently by you and if you choose not to offer a defence of your interpretations nor state your interpretations I will understand.

It is a difficult thing to see verses from the perspective of someone who disagrees with you.