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I consider the destruction of Jerusalem, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and the explusion of the remainder; to constitute the cessation of the nation. There's copious web information available.Can you cite the 70 AD date for anything other than that rebellion and destruction of the Temple? Most of what I read shows basically the dates I mentioned. 1948 is without debate, of course.
Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.I consider the destruction of Jerusalem, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and the explusion of the remainder; to constitute the cessation of the nation. There's copious web information available.
If you have reasons for believing that the cessation of the nation occurred in other than 70 AD, I wouldn't disagree. In relation to prophetic fulfillment, the issue is not when it occurred, but rather that it did occur.Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.
Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist. If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.If you have reasons for believing that the cessation of the nation occurred in other than 70 AD, I wouldn't disagree. In relation to prophetic fulfillment, the issue is not when it occurred, but rather that it did occur.
Perhaps you consider it so, and it was a terrible, unconscionable action, and the destruction of the Temple was a tragedy, but that does not necessarily constitute the cessation of the Jewish nation. The expulsion did not happen until about 135, it did not happen in 70 when the Temple was destroyed. Forum etiquette asks one to reference one's assertion, please let me know where I can find, from a standard and reasonably scholarly or agreed upon source, the date for what you are claiming.
Here's a source that cites Both Dates as legitimate:
Historical background 70 CE-1917 - Israel & Judaism Studies
"Jews have lived in the Land of Israel for nearly 4000 years, going back to the period of the Biblical patriarchs (c.1900 BCE). The story of Jewish life in ancient Israel is recorded in detail in the Hebrew Bible (the Christian "Old Testament").
The dispersion of the Jewish people is traditionally dated from the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, an event considered by the Romans to be a victory of such significance that they commemorated it by erecting the triumphal Arch of Titus, which still dominates the Roman Forum. The Roman historian Cassius Dio records that in a subsequent revolt in 135 CE some 580,000 Jewish soldiers were killed; and following that revolt the Emperor Hadrian decreed that the name "Judea" should be replaced by "Syria Palestina" - Philistine Syria or "Palestine"."
The key, for me, in preferring the 70AD date is that all the genealogical records were burned and forever lost in that event, rendering any "reconstitution" or "Reformation" of the Jewish Theocratic Nation of Israel, per the terms and requirements of the Sinai Covenant that inaugurated the Biblical nation of Israel in the first place, impossible forever.
Today's Israel, in contrast, is a Multiethnic Conglomoration of peoples who have entered into a Democratic contract with one another to form a modern Secular Nation founded on the principles that arose out of the European enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries. It has no relationship whatsoever (outside of geography and moniker) to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy that once shared its name and general location.
It is no more the "reconstitution" of Biblical Israel than modern Mexico is the "reconstitution" of the ancient Aztec Empire.
Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist.
If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.
Right, that is where we disagree. I stand by the point that the Jewish people and nation have never ceased to exist. They have been in captivity and been without a homeland, but they have not ceased to exist. If that is the bar we are using then they ceased twice, the first time back in the times of Babylon and then in 135 when they were expelled from Jerusalem and under Roman occupation since around 6.
I am OK with agreeing to disagree, I am not sure that we are going to see eye to eye on this, and that is OK. In the end Christ has redeemed us regardless of how we stand on this point, I believe.
Those wittle wascalsThe British promised the same piece of land to both the Arabs and the Jews.
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Every day modern Orthodox Jews and Christians visit a wall built by the Romans.
Recently a Roman amphitheater was found underground at this site, thus confirming the fact that the structure was built by the Romans.
During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.
Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the first century.
It is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during the same time period.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
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The amphitheatre was NOT found under the Temple Mount, but under Wilson's Arch, outside the Western Wall. It dates to about 300 AD.
So Much Drama! Roman Amphitheater Found Under Western Wall Tunnels
Then it would be quite strange that Israeli Archeologist Eli Shukron (who also rediscovered the Pool of Siloam.) discovered a Roman coin dated about 17 AD under the bottom layer of stones in the "Wailing Wall", during an underground excavation.
Wilson's Arch is beside of and attached to the "Wailing Wall".
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Herod began the expansion of the Temple Mount and renovation of the Temple proper in about 20BC. The Western Wall was part of that expansion. The project was not finished until shortly before the first revolt against Rome in 66AD. The date of the coin only indicates the the Western Wall was not finished in 'about 20 BC when the coin fell there.
TEMPLE OF HEROD - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Josephus was an eyewitness to the fact that Fort Antonia was built beside of the Jewish temple and the two were connected together with a bridge.
You said Fort Antonia is not big enough to be the Roman fort.
Then please tell us where the Roman fort was located.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
I would not use the Jewish Encyclopedia as an unbiased source of truth.
A much better source is found below.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
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