A supernatural high?

[mrmccormo]

Although I believe your lofty imagination controls your discernment. Instead of hearsay about Crowder, good or bad, nor do we both personally know him. How about we just leave it to the test of time to expose him?

And you are still to bring up any teaching whatsoever. Again, although I'm no exclusive follower of John (a lot I agree with him on), I do live in the drunkenness, high, call it what you will. I personally prefer perfect peace or bliss. I feel I can at least represent the faith hence why I have been trying to direct it away from Crowder and into conversation about what is believed. It's way too easy to see, not understand, and scream heresy or demons.

Seem reasonable?

I think this is perfectly reasonable, in the sense that we don't waste our time picketing John Crowder's meetings or making eternal judgments against him. You're right: we don't personally know him.

But it is quite easy to know his teachings, which is what people here are making comments on. I've been deep, deep into Charismatic teachings and I've seen environments full of prophesy, tongues, being drunk in the Spirit, etc., and one of the most common "defenses" I heard is "don't judge that person" if you call their teachings into practice.

Ok, well....we're not judging him, at least, I'm not. I'm not saying he's a liar. I'm not saying he is the devil. I am simply using discernment and judgment on his teachings, which is precicely what we should be doing.

Personally, his teachings are very suspicious. I haven't seen anyone be so extreme specifically with the drunkeness of the Spirit, but I've seen it with other manifestations like tongues, prophecy, calling down angels, etc., and Crowder's behavior is identical: he makes the drunkeness of the Spirit of primary concern. He keeps using the argument "drunkeness from booze is a counterfeit to the drunkeness that God can give you".

But how do you know your drunkeness is from God? As others have pointed out, other religions and other spiritual practices can also lead to "drunkeness", mystical experiences, OOB experiences, etc.

But the response is the same: "oh, uh....those things are just the counterfeit to God's drunkeness!"

How do you know theirs is the counterfeit and your is the genuine article? Simply saying "this is from God" doesn't make it so.

I think that is the issue that many people (including myself) are struggling with. I'm not bothered with God doing mysterious and wonderful things. I'm completely on board with God talking to us, showing us visions, or even striking us with "spiritual drunkeness", but why should we chase after it like a drug? Why should we make our own personal (selfish) pleasure the aim of the Gospel?

And ultimately (since this "drunkeness" is coming from the spiritual realm, not the physical realm, as even Crowder would happily admit), what is being done to discern between spirits?

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

Wait what? Demons don't exist biblically? What do you mean?

do you have extra print that no one else can see? I did NOT say demons do not exist. I said, satan can only imitate what is already out there. Please stop twisting my words and making them up.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

Yes and what of a bliss that is not spelled out Biblically, which technically it is. I'm confused why our minds obsess over demons before the possibility that our Lord is the originator of our pleasure? Some one even admitted that Satan is an imitator. You honestly think drunkenness was his idea? The joy of our Lord can be more than just a fuzzy feeling and a smile at times.

DO You understand English??? I think this will be my last post to you, as you are just way out there with your thinking what people said. NO, satan did NOT invent "joy", he can only imitate it. That is what I said and meant. Good grief.

 

[JRSut1000]

Wow, I hate to say it but you're quite rude both to myself and the other member here! No need for that, I honestly did not understand what you were saying because of the wording. I'm not trying to twist your words at all, I asked for clarification.

Might I add that I do agree with you on the counterfeit thing, I know that Satan can use counterfeit means (e.g. signs and wonders) to deceive people.

 

[LogosRhema]

can I ask you show me where I said any of that? I happen to enjoy the Lord's presence, and yes, manifest. I don't believe EVERYTHING is from demons.

Discussion with another member. Unless I'm getting myself confused.

 

[LogosRhema]

Deleted.

 

[JRSut1000]

Lol, I was referring to the blueberry muffin. Sorry for the mix-up!

 

[LogosRhema]

DO You understand English??? I think this will be my last post to you, as you are just way out there with your thinking what people said. NO, satan did NOT invent "joy", he can only imitate it. That is what I said and meant. Good grief.

I read English very well. I have several conversations on going right now so let me review our interactions.

 

[LogosRhema]

can I ask you show me where I said any of that? I happen to enjoy the Lord's presence, and yes, manifest. I don't believe EVERYTHING is from demons.

I'm making conversation from your previous comment on your research on the kudalini spirit. Your research on it seemed inconclusive. At least just reading from what you said.

And my further comment was in response to you asking why the attack. Hence I made the "merely observation" gesture, simply extension of the conversation I was trying to make with you.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

you can make conversation, all for it, but I am not for attack or twisting what I say. I believe there is a kundalini spirit, but it is a counterfeit to the real thing. I don't focus on demons, no need to. Greater is He that is in me. I don't share alot of my personal experiences on here, or really anywhere, because there are some that mock, don't understand, criticize etc. Not saying you are. Just a general statement. so, if I am vague in some areas, that is why,

 

[LogosRhema]

I think this is perfectly reasonable, in the sense that we don't waste our time picketing John Crowder's meetings or making eternal judgments against him. You're right: we don't personally know him.

But it is quite easy to know his teachings, which is what people here are making comments on. I've been deep, deep into Charismatic teachings and I've seen environments full of prophesy, tongues, being drunk in the Spirit, etc., and one of the most common "defenses" I heard is "don't judge that person" if you call their teachings into practice.

Ok, well....we're not judging him, at least, I'm not. I'm not saying he's a liar. I'm not saying he is the devil. I am simply using discernment and judgment on his teachings, which is precicely what we should be doing.

Personally, his teachings are very suspicious. I haven't seen anyone be so extreme specifically with the drunkeness of the Spirit, but I've seen it with other manifestations like tongues, prophecy, calling down angels, etc., and Crowder's behavior is identical: he makes the drunkeness of the Spirit of primary concern. He keeps using the argument "drunkeness from booze is a counterfeit to the drunkeness that God can give you".

But how do you know your drunkeness is from God? As others have pointed out, other religions and other spiritual practices can also lead to "drunkeness", mystical experiences, OOB experiences, etc.

But the response is the same: "oh, uh....those things are just the counterfeit to God's drunkeness!"

How do you know theirs is the counterfeit and your is the genuine article? Simply saying "this is from God" doesn't make it so.

I think that is the issue that many people (including myself) are struggling with. I'm not bothered with God doing mysterious and wonderful things. I'm completely on board with God talking to us, showing us visions, or even striking us with "spiritual drunkeness", but why should we chase after it like a drug? Why should we make our own personal (selfish) pleasure the aim of the Gospel?

And ultimately (since this "drunkeness" is coming from the spiritual realm, not the physical realm, as even Crowder would happily admit), what is being done to discern between spirits?

Thanks for the peaceful response.

Fruit! It's so easy to see these men in videos and dismiss them but it is by their fruit. From groups similar to Crowders I can testify to the genuine love there is beyond anything I have ever experienced before.

Also, from my own life I can really boast in Christ the easiness of the Gospel and just how naturally the fruits are produced. Just the overwhelming passions of love for God that come with it, I do not need to wind myself up to share the gospel at all lol in fact, He just takes over and next thing I know I'm sharing the good news.

I understand the pursuit of the peace of God from Hebrews 3 and 4 when Paul is teaching on urgently pursuing God's rest thru faith. If I understand correctly, in faith we are submitting over our cares and worries to Him and it does say in Phillipians that a peace that transcends all understanding will guard our hearts and minds in Christ thru prayer and supplication. As well it comes from Christ saying to come to Him for His easy burden. Furthermore, Christ simply called His followers to believe in the One God sent as a commandment past just honoring love.

We simply believe that Christ did not just die in our place, but He also lived in our place. That the righteousness is not our own, but are being clothed in His and that it is not something we can work to do, but by just entering into His rest we will enter into His righteousness, holiness, and walk in the Spirit. God does it all, even the good works we will do. It's no longer me, but Christ in me.

There's so much more to say, but very basically this is where we are coming from. Entering into God's rest and setting aside our works and problem solving produces a peace that transcends all understanding. Aka bliss aka drunkenness aka joy. And, yes, there can be different intensities at time how this may look.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

Discussion with another member. Unless I'm getting myself confused.

sorry my wrong.

 

[LogosRhema]

you can make conversation, all for it, but I am not for attack or twisting what I say. I believe there is a kundalini spirit, but it is a counterfeit to the real thing. I don't focus on demons, no need to. Greater is He that is in me. I don't share alot of my personal experiences on here, or really anywhere, because there are some that mock, don't understand, criticize etc. Not saying you are. Just a general statement. so, if I am vague in some areas, that is why,

I believe the kudalini spirit doctrine is a man's imagination to justify his own disagreement with a freedom he does not live in. There is no scriptural foundation for it. Just itchy ears fluff. No offense but it still seems to me that you will believe in a make believe demon spirit over the possibility that the joy of the Lord can come upon a person so strongly.

 

[lismore]

My test is not what believers get up to in meetings, rather what happens outside of the meeting.

Does their life the rest of the week show the fruits of the Spirit and the joy of the Lord?

You can fake an ecstatic experience but you cannot fake the Holy Spirit in your life.

 

[LogosRhema]

My test is not what believers get up to in meetings, rather what happens outside of the meeting.

Does their life the rest of the week show the fruits of the Spirit and the joy of the Lord?

You can fake an ecstatic experience but you cannot fake the Holy Spirit in your life.

Agreed.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

My test is not what believers get up to in meetings, rather what happens outside of the meeting.

Does their life the rest of the week show the fruits of the Spirit and the joy of the Lord?

You can fake an ecstatic experience but you cannot fake the Holy Spirit in your life.

Totally agree.

 

[mrmccormo]

Thanks for the peaceful response.

Fruit! It's so easy to see these men in videos and dismiss them but it is by their fruit. From groups similar to Crowders I can testify to the genuine love there is beyond anything I have ever experienced before.

I think if we look at fruit, it will have the opposite outcome that you desire. I can't speak for Crowder himself and I am sure that he is a godly man, but the "fruit" of the lives of other Charismatics that he learned from includes divorce, adultery, false prophecy, and sexual promiscuity.

If I look at that fruit, I come away with a bad impression.

Again, I'm not accusing Crowder. I'm sure he is a godly Christian and I have no reason to believe otherwise. However, the fruit of the lives of some of (note that I said "some of") the others who have pioneered this "drunk in the Spirit" theology has been bad, bad, bad.

I'm sure it could be said that the bad fruit of some (even if they are leaders in this movement) doesn't mean the movement itself is bad. I guess that's fair. However, then you would need to throw out the "fruit" argument.

 

[LogosRhema]

I think if we look at fruit, it will have the opposite outcome that you desire. I can't speak for Crowder himself and I am sure that he is a godly man, but the "fruit" of the lives of other Charismatics that he learned from includes divorce, adultery, false prophecy, and sexual promiscuity.

If I look at that fruit, I come away with a bad impression.

Again, I'm not accusing Crowder. I'm sure he is a godly Christian and I have no reason to believe otherwise. However, the fruit of the lives of some of (note that I said "some of") the others who have pioneered this "drunk in the Spirit" theology has been bad, bad, bad.

I'm sure it could be said that the bad fruit of some (even if they are leaders in this movement) doesn't mean the movement itself is bad. I guess that's fair. However, then you would need to throw out the "fruit" argument.

I don't believe we should dissolve it as fruit does include bad fruit. Obviously the Word describes the work of the flesh and should we see these things then perhaps something is amiss. It also lays out the fruits of the Spirit. These things are very great tools to guide conclusions.

Unless you want to bring in discernment but I will still challenge that as many are influenced by the carnal mind, the accuracy of such claims is completely relative and is usually influenced by what they believe looks right rather than what spiritually is going on.

Another guide I have found is the Holy Spirit and learning His flow. A rather mystical experience that I cannot explain but many can testify uneasiness or peace depending on what direction one is considering. I've known of others where the Spirit says to leave, me being one of them, to avoid calamity.

In the end, what measuring stick is to be used? Leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Tho most of the time its just man being convinced in his mind rather than a leading of the Spirit. Just saying that from my own experience and the way I used to believe.

I did not always live in this. And there's a huge difference in what's it like to live in it.

I wouldn't be so fast to lump Crowder or myself in with Pentecostal or charismatic movements. I used to be Pentecostal (AG) and can tell you with a clear mind that they do not relate other than in faith in Christ.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

I believe the kudalini spirit doctrine is a man's imagination to justify his own disagreement with a freedom he does not live in. There is no scriptural foundation for it. Just itchy ears fluff. No offense but it still seems to me that you will believe in a make believe demon spirit over the possibility that the joy of the Lord can come upon a person so strongly.

*sigh*. again, you have read me wrong. I have had the experience, many of them that you are speaking of. As I said in another of my posts, I don't share alot of my personal experiences, because it is like throwing my pearls before swine. Again, I didn't say there was or wasn't scriptural evidence or not, NOR did I say what you said I said, STOP DOING THAT.

 

[LogosRhema]

*sigh*. again, you have read me wrong. I have had the experience, many of them that you are speaking of. As I said in another of my posts, I don't share alot of my personal experiences, because it is like throwing my pearls before swine. Again, I didn't say there was or wasn't scriptural evidence or not, NOR did I say what you said I said, STOP DOING THAT.

In a previous post you admitted to belief in the silly imaginary demon! you openly said that you believed in one, specifically named 'kudalini'.

My reading skills have triumphed! *sarcasm and fun intended*

I agree there are counterfeits but the list is long. 99% of those on this list are earthly substitutes to heavenly joy/bliss. Very RARE ocassions would I admit demonic posession of joy and even that sounds like a paradox to me.