A supernatural high?

[mrmccormo]

I don't believe we should dissolve it as fruit does include bad fruit. Obviously the Word describes the work of the flesh and should we see these things then perhaps something is amiss. It also lays out the fruits of the Spirit. These things are very great tools to guide conclusions.

Actually, no. Biblically speaking, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit." Also, "can salty and fresh water proceed from the same well?"

So, like I said, you might want to abandon the mantra of "just look at our fruit!", because a lot of the fruit I see is bad.

Unless you want to bring in discernment but I will still challenge that as many are influenced by the carnal mind, the accuracy of such claims is completely relative and is usually influenced by what they believe looks right rather than what spiritually is going on.

Another guide I have found is the Holy Spirit and learning His flow. A rather mystical experience that I cannot explain but many can testify uneasiness or peace depending on what direction one is considering. I've known of others where the Spirit says to leave, me being one of them, to avoid calamity.

Yes, I'd day that it is a good idea to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

In the end, what measuring stick is to be used? Leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Eh, this is a bit shaky. Of course, I can't speak for you and I can't speak for Mr. Crowder (I can only speak for myself), but to just "leave it to the Holy Spirit" is dangerous, not because the Holy Spirit is dangerous, but because often we can think we're hearing from the Holy Spirit but in reality we are not. What measuring stick is to be used indeed! If we are told to test the spirits, what measuring stick can be used if all we're using is the spirits?

Tho most of the time its just man being convinced in his mind rather than a leading of the Spirit. Just saying that from my own experience and the way I used to believe.

I did not always live in this. And there's a huge difference in what's it like to live in it.

I wouldn't be so fast to lump Crowder or myself in with Pentecostal or charismatic movements. I used to be Pentecostal (AG) and can tell you with a clear mind that they do not relate other than in faith in Christ.

I don't mean to paint this movement as Charismatic except for the fact that I experienced these things within a Charismatic movement. The label is not so much important. And it really doesn't matter where we lump Crowder or other people, you're right. I apologize, because I'm not trying to lump anyone anywhere. All I'm pointing out is that Crowder's teachers and contemporaries (and it would be very fair to lump Crowder into that group, because he teaches the same things they do) have allowed sexual sin, divorce, and scandal into their lives and into their ministries. I know we are all sinners, but again....look at the fruit.

 

[LogosRhema]

Actually, no. Biblically speaking, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit." Also, "can salty and fresh water proceed from the same well?"

So, like I said, you might want to abandon the mantra of "just look at our fruit!", because a lot of the fruit I see is bad.

Yes, I'd day that it is a good idea to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Eh, this is a bit shaky. Of course, I can't speak for you and I can't speak for Mr. Crowder (I can only speak for myself), but to just "leave it to the Holy Spirit" is dangerous, not because the Holy Spirit is dangerous, but because often we can think we're hearing from the Holy Spirit but in reality we are not. What measuring stick is to be used indeed! If we are told to test the spirits, what measuring stick can be used if all we're using is the spirits?

I don't mean to paint this movement as Charismatic except for the fact that I experienced these things within a Charismatic movement. The label is not so much important. And it really doesn't matter where we lump Crowder or other people, you're right. I apologize, because I'm not trying to lump anyone anywhere. All I'm pointing out is that Crowder's teachers and contemporaries (and it would be very fair to lump Crowder into that group, because he teaches the same things they do) have allowed sexual sin, divorce, and scandal into their lives and into their ministries. I know we are all sinners, but again....look at the fruit.

Tell me how you test the spirits? And can you say for yourself that as your mind is rooted in Christ that you only bear good fruit?

Paul does suggest tho the carnal nature has been circumcised of that there is some tiny measure of evil still lurking in our members that we shouldn't entertain. And we are dealing with people here, I think perhaps instead of weighing things performance based and look at it that all are still being reformed continually into His likeness, that certain areas of someone's life may not yet be fully rooted in Christ. You don't have to look far in the old testament that many of the more famous figures in the Bible still struggled clearly. Does that mandate them as not credible, in light of God still using them? And if the old testament is a shadow to what we are living in now, how much more does it come out to be now?

And I say leave it to the Holy Spirit to lead them as an act of submission in our love for them, lest we start badgering them which I don't believe God wants for us to do. Even we can't change ourselves, God does, how much more can we not change another?

I personally know that John does not encourage sexual impurity. I do not know him in person but thru interacting with him in certain situations that I've been connected within, I can safely say he does not encourage bad sexual behavior. What that actually looks like behind the scenes, I only sort of know but I feel safe enough in assuming the best.

 

[mrmccormo]

Tell me how you test the spirits? And can you say for yourself that as your mind is rooted in Christ that you only bear good fruit?

I test the spirits through prayer, through patience (not jumping to conclusions), sometimes by asking for advice, and also by consulting Scripture. Also, often I will spend some time in prayer rebuking any false spirits in the name of Jesus and then I ask God to please have mercy and to speak to me again.

Paul does suggest tho the carnal nature has been circumcised of that there is some tiny measure of evil still lurking in our members that we shouldn't entertain. And we are dealing with people here, I think perhaps instead of weighing things performance based and look at it that all are still being reformed continually into His likeness, that certain areas of someone's life may not yet be fully rooted in Christ. You don't have to look far in the old testament that many of the more famous figures in the Bible still struggled clearly. Does that mandate them as not credible, in light of God still using them? And if the old testament is a shadow to what we are living in now, how much more does it come out to be now?

And I say leave it to the Holy Spirit to lead them as an act of submission in our love for them, lest we start badgering them which I don't believe God wants for us to do. Even we can't change ourselves, God does, how much more can we not change another?

I'm not asking these people to change. I'm not demanding that the people like Todd Bentley (a close friend and mentor of John Crowder's) change their sinful ways. That is between them and God.

What I am pointing out is that the fruit of their ministries is bad fruit. These ministries attact, create, and then spit out scandal. The Christian Mystic movement (not just "drunk in the Spirit" but also their teachings on gifts, angels, words of prophecy, etc) have churned out scandal at an alarming degree. If it was just one or two people, yeah, you're 100% right. We shouldn't judge the ministry based on a few people. However, when the BULK of the ministry is steeped in scandal, it makes me pause and wonder.

I personally know that John does not encourage sexual impurity. I do not know him in person but thru interacting with him in certain situations that I've been connected within, I can safely say he does not encourage bad sexual behavior. What that actually looks like behind the scenes, I only sort of know but I feel safe enough in assuming the best.

I would encourage you to keep assuming the best, to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt. There is no benefit in assuming they are harboring sinfulness behind the scenes, so we might as well assume that they are being good Christians.

However, let me point out again that I have nothing against John Crowder personally. I am not questioning his teaching because of something he did. I am not suspicious of him because I am suspicious of him being immoral. I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt.

What I am getting at is that his doctrine and teaching taken by themselves causes me to raise an eyebrow. In addition, the ministry from which he comes is one that historically has produced a lot of scandal, false teaching, and heartache.

 

[JRSut1000]

I'd like to add something small to this discussion if it's all right with all of you:

Another thing to look at when it comes to the fruit of the ministry is what Jesus said when John questioned Him in His ministry. "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them". (from Luke 7)

Also "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power" 1 Corin 2:4-5

If you notice, where true teaching was done as was signs and wonders, especially healing. Now one hears reports of healing in many meetings/crusades/revivals, but are they authentic AND complete? When people get out of their wheelchairs, are they jumping and leaping and praising God as is seen in Acts? Or are they stumbling around, especially after all the music and 'hype' is over?

I do believe that God can use ministers, however imperfect they may be. But I do also believe that many times a full healing is not given, lest anyone say that the minister has the 'full gospel' or truth.

 

[LogosRhema]

I still don't think we can say we have a reliable history to say Crowder is following. I realize I am young, but I have known of other so called glory movements, one that happened my life time ago near where I lived that fell apart.

I still would encourage giving this line of teaching its own page as its doesn't exactly follow previous moves that I know of. And where is your source that Crowder is mentored by Bentley? First I've heard of that one.

And undrstand that I spent almost an entire year after I was introduced to this teaching in prayer and away from it. Spent that time completely involved at a local church actually. The Lord led me back to it and I have never known such intimacy with the Lord before. I cannot explain the good changes that have occurred and many in my own life can testify the same about themselves and me.

I will admit, I more than raised an eyebrow when I was first exposed to this all. Only it wasn't thru a video, but in person in a group separate from Crowder but believes very much the same thing. Lol.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

In a previous post you admitted to belief in the silly imaginary demon! you openly said that you believed in one, specifically named 'kudalini'.

My reading skills have triumphed! *sarcasm and fun intended*

I agree there are counterfeits but the list is long. 99% of those on this list are earthly substitutes to heavenly joy/bliss. Very RARE ocassions would I admit demonic posession of joy and even that sounds like a paradox to me.

*sigh again* fine. whatever. I said MAY. but I am not going to argue with you. You seem to be very "spiritually" proud, and quite honestly, I don't have time for it.

 

[LogosRhema]

*sigh again* fine. whatever. I said MAY. but I am not going to argue with you. You seem to be very "spiritually" proud, and quite honestly, I don't have time for it.

Haha Nah. I love Jesus tho and will boast in His joy of my salvation and our unity. Sorry you don't have time for me

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

Haha Nah. I love Jesus tho and will boast in His joy of my salvation and our unity. Sorry you don't have time for me

could you for once read what I said. I said I don't have time for ARGUING. I didn't say YOU. I rejoice as well as you in all the Lord's love, glory, blessings etc. Now, if you could stop with your silliness, and we can stay on topic, that would be great.

 

[mrmccormo]

I still don't think we can say we have a reliable history to say Crowder is following. I realize I am young, but I have known of other so called glory movements, one that happened my life time ago near where I lived that fell apart.

I still would encourage giving this line of teaching its own page as its doesn't exactly follow previous moves that I know of. And where is your source that Crowder is mentored by Bentley? First I've heard of that one.

At the beginning of John Crowder's book, he gives a shout-out to Todd Bentley, Bentley's parents, and Todd Bentley also gives an endorsement in th same book. IIRC, Crowder also travelled Bentley during Bentley's pre-new-woman days of ministry.

Bentley also gives credence to other teachers like Rick Joyner, Benjamin Dunn, and David Vaughan. I'm just pointing out that Crowder is very much a part of the Morningstar/Emergent movement that focuses on angels, healings, tongues, prophecy, drunkeness of the spirit, etc, and he certainly did not pave the road for his theology. He is simply making the theology more bold, more exciting, more in-your-face.

And undrstand that I spent almost an entire year after I was introduced to this teaching in prayer and away from it. Spent that time completely involved at a local church actually. The Lord led me back to it and I have never known such intimacy with the Lord before. I cannot explain the good changes that have occurred and many in my own life can testify the same about themselves and me.

If God has led you to this place, then praise God! Please, continue to seek His Word and His will for your life, and if it leads you deeper on this path, then don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But please understand that when I make criticisms of Crowder and some of the other stuff these related ministries have produced, I'm not criticizing your or your faith, nor am I saying that the things you're learned and experienced are false.

I will admit, I more than raised an eyebrow when I was first exposed to this all. Only it wasn't thru a video, but in person in a group separate from Crowder but believes very much the same thing. Lol.

If I was a skeptic non-Christian, even the idea that a man-God came to earth to die for my sins would make me raise an eyebrow. So...yeah. Skepticism does not make something true or false. Skepticism is simply our own reaction.

 

[LogosRhema]

At the beginning of John Crowder's book, he gives a shout-out to Todd Bentley, Bentley's parents, and Todd Bentley also gives an endorsement in th same book. IIRC, Crowder also travelled Bentley during Bentley's pre-new-woman days of ministry.

Bentley also gives credence to other teachers like Rick Joyner, Benjamin Dunn, and David Vaughan. I'm just pointing out that Crowder is very much a part of the Morningstar/Emergent movement that focuses on angels, healings, tongues, prophecy, drunkeness of the spirit, etc, and he certainly did not pave the road for his theology. He is simply making the theology more bold, more exciting, more in-your-face.

If God has led you to this place, then praise God! Please, continue to seek His Word and His will for your life, and if it leads you deeper on this path, then don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But please understand that when I make criticisms of Crowder and some of the other stuff these related ministries have produced, I'm not criticizing your or your faith, nor am I saying that the things you're learned and experienced are false.

If I was a skeptic non-Christian, even the idea that a man-God came to earth to die for my sins would make me raise an eyebrow. So...yeah. Skepticism does not make something true or false. Skepticism is simply our own reaction.

I see. Assuming the best and knowing what Crowder teaches, I'm happy to conclude that he addresses Todd's failures with grace rather than expulsion. Again should we base everything on performance? Just in knowing situations I have been involved in where Crowder was too I can say he does stand for what is right and does offer correction where possible. There was a situation just last week that John and I discussed that was harmful to the body and it involved a mutual friend that has started teaching weird stuff.

I would agree that Crowder does use wording that catches the eye but he does have content to back it up. He has worded things before that I did not care for but did enjoy the content within. I know of a speaker, previously mentioned, that will word things flashy for offense sake but doesn't back it up with much content.

I know that John is careful not to word things that'll mislead followers into sin.

Guess time will test it all out. If its of God I would like to assume it'll last!

 

[Yitzchak]

Although I believe your lofty imagination controls your discernment. Instead of hearsay about Crowder, good or bad, nor do we both personally know him. How about we just leave it to the test of time to expose him?

And you are still to bring up any teaching whatsoever. Again, although I'm no exclusive follower of John (a lot I agree with him on), I do live in the drunkenness, high, call it what you will. I personally prefer perfect peace or bliss. I feel I can at least represent the faith hence why I have been trying to direct it away from Crowder and into conversation about what is believed. It's way too easy to see, not understand, and scream heresy or demons.

Seem reasonable?

I think it is reasonable to steer the direction of the conversation to the more general topic. This phenomena of getting high is being embraced by more than just John Crowder. He is one of the more well known leaders who embraces this "teaching , but not the only one.

We have talked about the pirate for Jesus guy with his middle finger for Jesus. There are a few other well know ministries out there also.


What do you know about John Scotland ?

John Scotland - Blissful Spiritual Intoxication


By the way, as far as the teachings go , I would prefer to steer clear of debates about Dominism and the New Apostolic Reformation and all of that. Others are welcome to bring that if if they wish. I prefer to stick with mainly discussing the high on Jesus issue.

My question for you would be this. Do you believe that there is anyone out pushing the high on Jesus thing that could be fake or from the devil ? or do you accept all of them at their word ?

 

[Yitzchak]

By the way , it is people seeking after these manifestations that creates a lot of these problems. People get caught up in it.

That is one of the errors in these movements. The fact that people seek strange manifestations.

If we seek God and something unexpected happens , it tends to keep it more in check. But once people start specifically trying to outdo one another with these manifestations , it goes downhill quickly.

 

[JRSut1000]

By the way , it is people seeking after these manifestations that creates a lot of these problems. People get caught up in it.

That is one of the errors in these movements. The fact that people seek strange manifestations.

If we seek God and something unexpected happens , it tends to keep it more in check. but once people start specifically trying to outdo one another with these manifestations , it goes downhill quickly.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[LogosRhema]

I think it is reasonable to steer the direction of the conversation to the more general topic. This phenomena of getting high is being embraced by more than just John Crowder. He is one of the more well known leaders who embraces this "teaching , but not the only one.

We have talked about the pirate for Jesus guy with his middle finger for Jesus. There are a few other well know ministries out there also.

What do you know about John Scotland ?

John Scotland - Blissful Spiritual Intoxication

By the way, as far as the teachings go , I would prefer to steer clear of debates about Dominism and the New Apostolic Reformation and all of that. Others are welcome to bring that if if they wish. I prefer to stick with mainly discussing the high on Jesus issue.

My question for you would be this. Do you believe that there is anyone out pushing the high on Jesus thing that could be fake or from the devil ? or do you accept all of them at their word ?

I do not accept them all. Well I love them all, and will enjoy company with them as I would with anyone else but that doesn't mean I follow their teaching.

Keep in mind just because someone lays the claim "drunken glory" doesn't make the teaching the same. The pirate does not preach the same things I believe and in fact stands against it. I personally know him and think he is a great guy but his teaching needs correcting but he doesn't respond well to it unfortunately. And sadly misleading many into very queer doctrine.

I don't know about john Scotland. Care to brief me on him until I get on my computer.

 

[LogosRhema]

By the way , it is people seeking after these manifestations that creates a lot of these problems. People get caught up in it.

That is one of the errors in these movements. The fact that people seek strange manifestations.

If we seek God and something unexpected happens , it tends to keep it more in check. But once people start specifically trying to outdo one another with these manifestations , it goes downhill quickly.

I enjoy the manifestation everyday but it is a by product of my union with Christ which I enjoy first and foremost. I personally could careless to out do another, tho I could imagine that some might.

Although the manifestation is great, the teaching is better to understand.

And I would actually disagree and say that the people are led astray by bad teaching. I personally know an entire community that lives in this more than I and they after years still can only boast in the freedom. Of course, you always have the ones that go in a bad direction with it. That goes with about anything tho. They are rare tho from what I have observed.

 

[AudioArtist]

I'm not commenting on any individuals (like John Crowder) here, but it doesn't surprise me that when some people encounter God [or step into an area where His manifest glory has fallen], they feel 'high' or 'drunk' or overwhelmed to the point of seeming intoxication. In His presence is fullness of joy, peace and life. We're quite comfortable with people crying and wailing over their sin when His presence falls (and rightly so), so why not the sheer opposite, too?

I have not experienced drunkenness in the Spirit, but I have been 'drunk' on His creation. When I cycle by some of the lakes in this village here in Hungary, I feel so overtaken by the beauty that surrounds me that I can barely contain myself and find it hard to hold a normal conversation. People who don't know me would think I've taken something, but really it is just the works of His hands that have intoxicated my senses. He is awesome!

 

[LogosRhema]

I'm not commenting on any individuals (like John Crowder) here, but it doesn't surprise me that when some people encounter God [or step into an area where His manifest glory has fallen], they feel 'high' or 'drunk' or overwhelmed to the point of seeming intoxication. In His presence is fullness of joy, peace and life. We're quite comfortable with people crying and wailing over their sin when His presence falls (and rightly so), so why not the sheer opposite, too?

I have not experienced drunkenness in the Spirit, but I have been 'drunk' on His creation. When I cycle by some of the lakes in this village here in Hungary, I feel so overtaken by the beauty that surrounds me that I can barely contain myself and find it hard to hold a normal conversation. People who don't know me would think I've taken something, but really it is just the works of His hands that have intoxicated my senses. He is awesome!

I would say you have a very good idea of the by product of what I believe and live in. Literally I'm in a state of bliss and perfect peace as I rest in Him everyday. It does have intensities with some moments more than others but always a steady peace as I abide in Him. He is such good company!

 

[Yitzchak]

I do not accept them all. Well I love them all, and will enjoy company with them as I would with anyone else but that doesn't mean I follow their teaching.

Keep in mind just because someone lays the claim "drunken glory" doesn't make the teaching the same. The pirate does not preach the same things I believe and in fact stands against it. I personally know him and think he is a great guy but his teaching needs correcting but he doesn't respond well to it unfortunately. And sadly misleading many into very queer doctrine.

I don't know about john Scotland. Care to brief me on him until I get on my computer.

John Scotland does not set my spirit on edge like Crowder does. I may not agree with everything that Scotland teaches , but he does not give me the red flags like Crowder does. He is pretty radical about the being drunk in the Spirit thing though.


John Scotland is from England. He has a Baptist back round and was very serious until he got involved in the drunk in Jesus thing.

http://www.johnscotland.org/about/

In March 1994 John and Jean Scotland received a prophetic word from a prophet by the name of Bobby Connor. Bobby told them that there was a new anointing coming upon them. In November of that same year, John received an anointing of intoxication of joy and drunkenness in the Holy Spirit, which launched John and Jean into itinerate ministry in July of 1997.

John Scotland Sloshfest 2010 - YouTube

 

[Yitzchak]

Here is John Scotland giving his defense of being drunk ....


John Scotland in Long Island - Why are we drunk? - YouTube



This one gives a typical example of what John Scotland teaches...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM23eVyrHTE&feature=related

 

[LogosRhema]

Just briefly reading his stuff I could see charismatic influence. Other than announcing when he was "baptised in the Spirit" , which I find rather erroneous to even make note of, seems ok. I haven't watched those videos yet but will once I get home. Just read his website and such. I don't see too much to be alarmed of yet.

When I begin my own form of ministry I hope to avoid using my name so much. Like in making a website or putting a name on the ministry. I don't know where he stands on this, but I personally feel on my behalf that it would be self promotion rather than Christ promotion, again that's just me.

What has he said scripturally that has you alarmed?