A strange question for all Christians here

[Alithis]

So you're implying that what my pagan friend sees is real, but it's not truth either?

im not implying it i'm saying its the most likely scenario .
i dabbeld in such things as a youth .. when we trespass into the spiritual realm by such means we are entering in by sin .. and as such we are open to any demonic influence looking to seize upon the chance to deceive us and destroy our lives ..

what he claims to have seen or experienced can be real .. but if it does not acknowledge that the lord Jesus is the manifestation of god in the flesh and that ony through him we can be saved .. then no matter how much of it is real and true .. its foundation remains a lie and is not to be trusted because no one can say JESUS is LORD (above all) but by the Holy Spirit ... and if such things do not lead to a person or spirit confessing Jesus as Lord. then they are of the Spirit of anti-Christ .

 

[DiscipleEthan]

im not implying it i'm saying its the most likely scenario .
i dabbeld in such things as a youth .. when we trespass into the spiritual realm by such means we are entering in by sin .. and as such we are open to any demonic influence looking to seize upon the chance to deceive us and destroy our lives ..

what he claims to have seen or experienced can be real .. but if it does not acknowledge that the lord Jesus is the manifestation of god in the flesh and that ony through him we can be saved .. then no matter how much of it is real and true .. its foundation remains a lie and is not to be trusted because no one can say JESUS is LORD (above all) but by the Holy Spirit ... and if such things do not lead to a person or spirit confessing Jesus as Lord. then they are of the Spirit of anti-Christ .

I think I get what you're saying. Another concern I have is that he thinks when we die, we all go to the realm we talked about. But don't we go to heaven when we die or something?

 

[pennyattack]

I think I get what you're saying. Another concern I have is that he thinks when we die, we all go to the realm we talked about. But don't we go to heaven when we die or something?

By "we," yes, followers of Christ do.

However, there is always the fear of this:

Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[DiscipleEthan]

By "we," yes, followers of Christ do.

However, there is always the fear of this:

Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Ah yes, I know that verse. It strikes fear into many

 

[thesunisout]

Long ago I came across a Pagan guy who said he practiced astral travel to travel to another realm, where there are dragons and other mythical creatures and stuff. As he described it, it seemed convincing but now that I'm a Christian I'm unsure. Occult practices are condemned in Christianity. And I believe in heaven and hell and I believe in the word of God. So is his stories true and it's me who's wrong, or is it him who's wrong? Chances are it could be in the head. I'm not sure. Visions aren't always true

I have direct experience in these matters. The astral plane is a real place that people in the occult can access, in varying levels of awareness and control. It is like a dream world where you can meet real entities. The only problem is, it is controlled by the Devil. The entities that you meet are all demons, and they are trying to sell you a fantasy scenario to seduce and delude you.

I knew someone who had an elaborate fantasy that happened in the astral plane where various entities would acknowledge and worship her as God. Because of this, she really thought that she was God. The fantasy continued for decades; she held court and hundreds of different entities would come and go, serving her and treating her as if she was God. These were all demons, playing the part so they could keep her under a spell. It amazed me to learn just how hard they work to delude people.

Your friend likely experienced something real, but the truth of it is, it is all a lie. He was deluded by the seduction of demonic imaginations. Don't ever try to access the astral plane; it is not for Christians. We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, and that is the most exciting thing anyone could ever have on Earth. Jesus is Immanuel; God with us!

 

[Neogaia777]

So you're implying that what my pagan friend sees is real, but it's not truth either?

That's what I'd say, he probably started sensing forces from another side, but then made up his own truth and drew his own conclusions about it, he made up his own truth about it, which is a lie, but he may have experienced some real things though...

God Bless!

 

[JLR1300]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ __________________

Notice some things about these false professors.

They plead their WORKS as the reason Jesus should let them into heaven. If they had said "Savior, Savior we trust in you for salvation... did not you die and shed your blood and that alone saves us? That would have been a good answer. (Of course, by the time you are already dead it is too late)

They seem to want to call His attention to the fact that they were submissive to Him as Lord as a reason why they should get into heaven. Lord, Lord they say. Once again they seem to be depending on how committed they are to Him as the reason why God should accept them, rather than looking to His saving grace.

Jesus points out that only those who do God's will get into heaven. But what is God's will? What is the main work He wants us to perform? In John 6:27 Jesus tells the people to not labor for bread but to work for the true bread of eternal life instead. So the people ask Him what work they are to do to get eternal life. They say, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So the false professors said Lord, Lord (calling attention to their wonderful work of submission to His Lordship) Look at all our wonderful works...we drove out demons and worked miracles etc. etc. But Jesus wasn't impressed. They had failed to do the only work that God wills us to do for salvation... to believe on Christ and His sacrifice for eternal life instead of our works.

They had done all those good and moral things but had always trusted in themselves and their works for salvation so Jesus said... I never knew you. He didn't say I knew you but you failed to do enough good works so I abandoned you. He said I NEVER knew you. (You were never saved in the first place)

Finally, Since they weren't saved their sins were not covered by the blood of Christ ... therefore, He saw their sins. If only they had trusted in Jesus' death and sacrifice as the reason for salvation their sins would have been covered and they would have not been seen as sinners (workers of iniquity)

Friends, being good and moral and trying to be submissive to the Lordship of Christ and trying to do lots of good works for Jesus will not save you. You are still depending on your works for salvation. Being submissive to God and doing good deeds are great but they won't save you because you are not trusting in Jesus' sacrifice you are trusting in your morality and your willingness to serve God and do works. The only "work" that He demands for forgiveness and justification is to "believe in Him whom He sent" for salvation. If you do this you will be saved and then works will follow later but you will do them out of gratitude and not out of an attempt to earn salvation.

 

[Alithis]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ __________________

Notice some things about these false professors.

They plead their WORKS as the reason Jesus should let them into heaven. If they had said "Savior, Savior we trust in you for salvation... did not you die and shed your blood and that alone saves us? That would have been a good answer. (Of course, by the time you are already dead it is too late)

They seem to want to call His attention to the fact that they were submissive to Him as Lord as a reason why they should get into heaven. Lord, Lord they say. Once again they seem to be depending on how committed they are to Him as the reason why God should accept them, rather than looking to His saving grace.

Jesus points out that only those who do God's will get into heaven. But what is God's will? What is the main work He wants us to perform? In John 6:27 Jesus tells the people to not labor for bread but to work for the true bread of eternal life instead. So the people ask Him what work they are to do to get eternal life. They say, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So the false professors said Lord, Lord (calling attention to their wonderful work of submission to His Lordship) Look at all our wonderful works...we drove out demons and worked miracles etc. etc. But Jesus wasn't impressed. They had failed to do the only work that God wills us to do for salvation... to believe on Christ and His sacrifice for eternal life instead of our works.

They had done all those good and moral things but had always trusted in themselves and their works for salvation so Jesus said... I never knew you. He didn't say I knew you but you failed to do enough good works so I abandoned you. He said I NEVER knew you. (You were never saved in the first place)

Finally, Since they weren't saved their sins were not covered by the blood of Christ ... therefore, He saw their sins. If only they had trusted in Jesus' death and sacrifice as the reason for salvation their sins would have been covered and they would have not been seen as sinners (workers of iniquity)

Friends, being good and moral and trying to be submissive to the Lordship of Christ and trying to do lots of good works for Jesus will not save you. You are still depending on your works for salvation. Being submissive to God and doing good deeds are great but they won't save you because you are not trusting in Jesus' sacrifice you are trusting in your morality and your willingness to serve God and do works. The only "work" that He demands for forgiveness and justification is to "believe in Him whom He sent" for salvation. If you do this you will be saved and then works will follow later but you will do them out of gratitude and not out of an attempt to earn salvation.

these are some excellent points ... (i think with exception of the obedience ..obedience is imo "evidence of faith " it is not done to obtain salvation but because by faith salvation is already obtained and righteousness imputed )

 

[MWood]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ __________________

Notice some things about these false professors.

They plead their WORKS as the reason Jesus should let them into heaven. If they had said "Savior, Savior we trust in you for salvation... did not you die and shed your blood and that alone saves us? That would have been a good answer. (Of course, by the time you are already dead it is too late)

They seem to want to call His attention to the fact that they were submissive to Him as Lord as a reason why they should get into heaven. Lord, Lord they say. Once again they seem to be depending on how committed they are to Him as the reason why God should accept them, rather than looking to His saving grace.

Jesus points out that only those who do God's will get into heaven. But what is God's will? What is the main work He wants us to perform? In John 6:27 Jesus tells the people to not labor for bread but to work for the true bread of eternal life instead. So the people ask Him what work they are to do to get eternal life. They say, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So the false professors said Lord, Lord (calling attention to their wonderful work of submission to His Lordship) Look at all our wonderful works...we drove out demons and worked miracles etc. etc. But Jesus wasn't impressed. They had failed to do the only work that God wills us to do for salvation... to believe on Christ and His sacrifice for eternal life instead of our works.

They had done all those good and moral things but had always trusted in themselves and their works for salvation so Jesus said... I never knew you. He didn't say I knew you but you failed to do enough good works so I abandoned you. He said I NEVER knew you. (You were never saved in the first place)

Finally, Since they weren't saved their sins were not covered by the blood of Christ ... therefore, He saw their sins. If only they had trusted in Jesus' death and sacrifice as the reason for salvation their sins would have been covered and they would have not been seen as sinners (workers of iniquity)

Friends, being good and moral and trying to be submissive to the Lordship of Christ and trying to do lots of good works for Jesus will not save you. You are still depending on your works for salvation. Being submissive to God and doing good deeds are great but they won't save you because you are not trusting in Jesus' sacrifice you are trusting in your morality and your willingness to serve God and do works. The only "work" that He demands for forgiveness and justification is to "believe in Him whom He sent" for salvation. If you do this you will be saved and then works will follow later but you will do them out of gratitude and not out of an attempt to earn salvation.

ALL sins are forgiven by the blood that was shed on the Cross. He does not see the sins anymore. The only route to salvation is your belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and your belief in His death, burial, and resurrection. There is no other way to salvation.
The book of John is full of the sayings of Jesus; Whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life. Its not that hard, really.

 

[DiscipleEthan]

I have direct experience in these matters. The astral plane is a real place that people in the occult can access, in varying levels of awareness and control. It is like a dream world where you can meet real entities. The only problem is, it is controlled by the Devil. The entities that you meet are all demons, and they are trying to sell you a fantasy scenario to seduce and delude you.

I knew someone who had an elaborate fantasy that happened in the astral plane where various entities would acknowledge and worship her as God. Because of this, she really thought that she was God. The fantasy continued for decades; she held court and hundreds of different entities would come and go, serving her and treating her as if she was God. These were all demons, playing the part so they could keep her under a spell. It amazed me to learn just how hard they work to delude people.

Your friend likely experienced something real, but the truth of it is, it is all a lie. He was deluded by the seduction of demonic imaginations. Don't ever try to access the astral plane; it is not for Christians. We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, and that is the most exciting thing anyone could ever have on Earth. Jesus is Immanuel; God with us!

That is a very good point. That seems to make sense

 

[JLR1300]

these are some excellent points ... (i think with exception of the obedience ..obedience is imo "evidence of faith " it is not done to obtain salvation but because by faith salvation is already obtained and righteousness imputed )

Yes, I think we are agreeing. Obedience is indeed the evidence of faith. First we have faith and are justified and then that faith, along with the indwelling Holy Spirit, brings about works and obedience. I know that no one becomes perfect... but there ought to be real changes in a person's life if they have faith. God will discipline and chasten sinning believers.

I have noticed two types of groups among religious people... The first group demands moral works prior to justification and moral works after justification. The second group requires no works prior to justification and expects no works after justification. I make both groups upset because I see no requirement for works or any moral accomplishments prior to justification, but expect and insist that works will occur after justification.

 

[Paul K]

Well Astral projection as a whole is quite dangerous. If you did this, you are going into the spiritual realm. As the bible says, the demons leave the body, roam for a while, returns to the body, seeing that it is still empty, goes out and gets 7 more demons, then fills the body.

So when you practice astral projection, you are essentially leaving your body empty, inviting demons to do whatever they do to your body.

once I asked a friend who actually practiced astral projection, to actually meet Jesus or a Christian person while in the spiritual realm. He had a severe reaction to it as if he had a hot poker poking against him. I was surprised to his reaction.

Just a caution, It is not good to dabble in occultic practice. Lean more on God, and Depend on the truth. and the truth will set you free.

P

 

[Unix]

A lot can be caused by a lack of medication. But even if it's not just that, I would definitely not recommend astral projection at all:

That's what I'd say, he probably started sensing forces from another side, but then made up his own truth and drew his own conclusions about it, he made up his own truth about it, which is a lie, but he may have experienced some real things though...

I find quite different things much more fascinating even though the things I do would be described as boring by many.

 

[Alithis]

Yes, I think we are agreeing. Obedience is indeed the evidence of faith. First we have faith and are justified and then that faith, along with the indwelling Holy Spirit, brings about works and obedience. I know that no one becomes perfect... but there ought to be real changes in a person's life if they have faith. God will discipline and chasten sinning believers.

I have noticed two types of groups among religious people... The first group demands moral works prior to justification and moral works after justification. The second group requires no works prior to justification and expects no works after justification. I make both groups upset because I see no requirement for works or any moral accomplishments prior to justification, but expect and insist that works will occur after justification.

well iv never stopped to consider it before ..but upon doing so ..i guess i do the same lol