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A solid example from Scripture please.

Thatgirloncfforums

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Ok..Well, these guys in Sheol were conscious. Otherwise, how was Christ conscious enough to deliver them?
Jesus descended into Paradise to set the Saints free and take them to heaven when He asended.

The First Resurrection is in several phases and Jesus was the 1st fruits, and Lazarus as well.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Oh sorry! Got it❤️
No, you misunderstood me sister. My point was that necromancy is scriptural evidence of people invoking the dead, it wasn’t that prayers to the Saints is necromancy. That wasn’t my intention at all.
 
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Major1

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Major1

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You're confusing names with the substance of being. If someone wishes to call the angels in charge of salvation Fred and Ethel, it's not a sin. I know that some people name their guardian angels. And we know that Yeshua or Joshua, not Jesus is Christ's proper name. But whether one calls our Lord, Joshua or Jesus, the same person is being meant.
Tobit is a book in the EO, RC and OO canons btw.

NO. I am confusing nothing. I am clearly and simply telling you that there are NO angels in the Bible named Raphael and Phanuel. They do no exist!!!!!

Only two holy angels are named in Scripture—Gabriel and Michael!!!

Enoch 40:9-10....
" as seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, or Raphael, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life.

In case you did not know or understand, that is complete blasphemy
!

That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches. We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel...
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone. Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend the Word of God.

Here's chapter 48:1-3..
"And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits, And his name before the Head of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirits."

Was the Son of Man named? When was Jesus named in Heaven? What Book, What chapter and verse????

This is an attack on the deity of Jesus. Jesus Himself claimed in Revelation 1:8........
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Jesus is Eternal, without beginning or end. Head of Days? Lord of Spirits? These terms are NOT found in the Bible.

IF the Book of Enoch were valid, composing well over 100 chapters, there should be numerous New Testament references to it; but there aren't. Although some people claim that the Bible quotes the Book of Enoch over 100 times, this is simply not true. Just as the Qur'an, the Book of Enoch borrows from the Word of God. In sharp contrast to the Book of Enoch, the New Testament often quotes the Book of Genesis.

All these truths should be considered by the child of God lest they fall into the trap of deceit and false teaching.

YOU may not like what I am telling you and I encourage YOU to do the same investigative work I did on this some 50 years ago. Today it is easy with google search.
 
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Major1

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No, you misunderstood me sister. My point was that necromancy is scriptural evidence of people invoking the dead, it wasn’t that prayers to the Saints is necromancy. That wasn’t my intention at all.

Correct.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you."
 
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Major1

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No one is shaking bones, reading tea leaves or getting high off of vapours. In other words, we are not mediums employing the power of demons.

I talk to all the saints, living and dead. It doesn't matter whether someone is halfway across the world or in heaven. Christ's mediatorship is universal.

If you talk to a saint who is dead......how do you know it is your loved one?

The Bible tells us to NOT talk to the dead in Deut. 18:10-11......
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."

Source: 28 Bible verses about Necromancy
 
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Major1

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Swag365

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If you talk to a saint who is dead......how do you know it is your loved one?

The Bible tells us to NOT talk to the dead in Deut. 18:10-11......
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."

Source: 28 Bible verses about Necromancy
Are the saints alive in Christ?
 
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Major1

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Agreed. But you seem to be making the argument that those in Sheol are not conscious.

No I do not think so. If they were not conscious how would the rich man be in Torment?

The rich man had a memory. He knew Abraham, He knew his brothers were just as lost as he was.

He knew he was in pain. He knew water would cool him.

There is nothiing in Luke 16 to indicate that the rich man knew what was going on out side of Sheol.
 
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Swag365

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That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches. We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel...
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Is that how your loved-ones respond, when you ask them to pray for you? Do they pray for you, or do they say "No, sorry, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."?
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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In Daniel, Michael is referred to as 'one of the chief princes'. So, he isn't the only one.

Revelation 8:2 .....
"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

As I stated.........NO 7 "Arch" angels are mentioned in the Bible.

John said, "I saw seven angels" is not saying one single word about ARCH angels!

The Bible only calls ONE angel an ARCH angel and that was Michael.
 
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Major1

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Are the saints alive in Christ?

Yes sir.
We are made alive....SAVED from death to life by being "Born Again"!

Now .....does that then mean that all the people in heaven know what is taking place on the earth today???

I do not know.

I suspect that they do not. If you were in heaven, would you want to know what your children are doing today and with whom??? Do you think that if you knew you would be in sorry and tears over their actions????

Dosent the Bible tell us that there will be no sorry and tears in heaven????

Just asking.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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No I do not think so. If they were not conscious how would the rich man be in Torment?

The rich man had a memory. He knew Abraham, He knew his brothers were just as lost as he was.

He knew he was in pain. He knew water would cool him.

There is nothiing in Luke 16 to indicate that the rich man knew what was going on out side of Sheol.

The rich man perhaps didn't, but that's to be expected since he was not united to Christ. Again, Abraham did know, enough to pronounce a sort of judgement.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Because I trust in Christ and his promises that my loved one has through him conquered death.
If you talk to a saint who is dead......how do you know it is your loved one?

The Bible tells us to NOT talk to the dead in Deut. 18:10-11......
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."

Source: 28 Bible verses about Necromancy
 
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Major1

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Swag365

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Yes sir.
We are made alive....SAVED from death to life by being "Born Again"!

Now .....does that then mean that all the people in heaven know what is taking place on the earth today???

I do not know.

I suspect that they do not. If you were in heaven, would you want to know what your children are doing today and with whom??? Do you think that if you knew you would be in sorry and tears over their actions????

Dosent the Bible tell us that there will be no sorry and tears in heaven????

Just asking.
Those are interesting questions. I think the saints in heaven know that their relatives still on the Earth today commit sin, since we know generally that most people sin. But I don't know the extent to which they would see specific sins (if any). In either case, I doubt that they would be sorry and in tears. Those in heaven get to see God face to face. I think that's reason enough for infinite joy, regardless of what is going on in the world.
 
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Major1

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The rich man perhaps didn't, but that's to be expected since he was not united to Christ. Again, Abraham did know, enough to pronounce a sort of judgement.

But you are reading INTO what you want the Scriptures to say. They do not say Abraham knew anything.

All Abraham said is what the rich man already knew..............
"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

That says nothing about knowing any events taking place on the earth.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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But no Christian does these things. Our loved ones are alive in Christ, awaiting the Eschaton. Christ descended into Sheol and brought the spirits of just men up to the heavenly Zion with him. Their spirits are now perfected and Satan who accused them before God has been cast down.
Correct.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you."
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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How did Abraham know about Moses and the Prophets or that their witness upon the earth is effectual unto salvation ?
But you are reading INTO what you want the Scriptures to say. They do not say Abraham knew anything.

All Abraham said is what the rich man already knew..............
"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

That says nothing about knowing any events taking place on the earth.
 
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