A solid example from Scripture please.

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

I have tried to research this question online, even purchases a few books. I have read some of the threads here. But, the essential question is never answered. Where in 6000 yrs of recorded Biblical history (via the Scriptures) is invocation not intercession addressed.

Granted are:
1) That those in heaven pray for those on earth.
2) That those in heaven are alive
3) That those in heaven are aware of our particulars.

Thanks.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The earliest WRITTEN prayer to the saints we have is from St. Hippolytus of Rome:

Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.

Commentary on Daniel Rome, Circa AD 202-211

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I almost addressed this in that other thread of your asking about if there were any post Chalcedon teachings not in the Bible. I actually had this in mind when I mentioned that statement about "things being scriptural" in principle vs. those things seen literally in the text, aka proof texting.

In terms of proof texting their wouldn't be any unless you would consider 2 passages in the Deuterocanonical books, in Second Maccabeas and Tobit where this sort of thing occurs (The fact that these were edited out does come across as deck stacking to Orthodox and Catholics).

There is however plenty of reason for it as far stuff like:

a) The dead saints are part of the Church and the Church is one.
b) Death has been defeated (Jesus tends to minimize the power of death in various statements in the NT).
c) The general role of Intercession of saints in the Bible
d) Numerous Divine Counsel passages in the Bible (the saints join the rest of the heavenly court of God, and actually assume a place of honor above the angels).
e) scenes in Revelation that not only show them making intercession, but that there is "only One Worship service going on in heaven and earth" as the EO put it and in that service the prayers come up as incense in that service.
f) You got other passages like "The Great Cloud of Witnesses".


So we don't see this issue as being about needing scriptural support for the dead to make intercession but more in terms of what a Protestant does if they make a big issue out of this, which inadvertently ends up doing unbiblical things like exaggerating the power of death, creating two defacto Churches (One for the living and One for the Dead) and so on. But it's interesting you do get certain passages that kind support this like the scene at the mount of Transfiguration. Those kind of instances are treated by Protestants as special incidents that have no connection with everything else (assuming the dead are unaware of what is going on otherwise), but they are just part and parcel of Christian theology coming out of 2nd temple Judaism.


And to this I would add the Harrowing of Hell, and the different events that came from that. Like the dead prophets being raised and testifying of Jesus in Jerusalem etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I almost addressed this in that other thread of your asking about if there were any post Chalcedon teachings not in the Bible. I actually had this in mind when I mentioned that statement about "things being scriptural" in principle vs. those things seen literally in the text, aka proof texting.

In terms of proof texting their wouldn't be any unless you would consider 2 passages in the Deuterocanonical books, in Second Maccabeas and Tobit where this sort of thing occurs (The fact that these were edited out does come across as deck stacking to Orthodox and Catholics).

I would consider them as evidence, yes. Can you tell me chapter and verse please?

There is however plenty of reason for it as far stuff like:

a) The dead saints are part of the Church and the Church is one.
b) Death has been defeated (Jesus tends to minimize the power of death in various statements in the NT).
c) The general role of Intercession of saints in the Bible
d) Numerous Divine Counsel passages in the Bible (the saints join the rest of the heavenly court of God, and actually assume a place of honor above the angels).
e) scenes in Revelation that not only show them making intercession, but that there is "only One Worship service going on in heaven and earth" as the EO put it and in that service the prayers come up as incense in that service.
f) You got other passages like "The Great Cloud of Witnesses".

Yes. I understand the logic. The Lutheran Church as you know, would concur with each of these points. The problem arises, when we make the 'logical' jump from these to 'We can now invoke them'.
I am appealing to Scripture as an historian. It's the fact that Scripture covers 6000 yes of history, covering various genres that makes the absence of invoking the saints, quite odd. What I mean to say is, 'In 6000 yrs of recorded history, Catholics and EO can't bring forth one real life example?'

So we don't see this issue as being about needing scriptural support for the dead to make intercession but more in terms of what a Protestant does if they make a big issue out of this, which inadvertently ends up doing unbiblical things like exaggerating the power of death, creating two defacto Churches (One for the living and One for the Dead) and so on. But it's interesting you do get certain passages that kind support this like the scene at the mount of Transfiguration. Those kind of instances are treated by Protestants as special incidents that have no connection with everything else (assuming the dead are unaware of what is going on otherwise), but they are just part and parcel of Christian theology coming out of 2nd temple Judaism.

I concur that the dead are aware. I believe that to be the majority position of Scripture.

And to this I would add the Harrowing of Hell, and the different events that came from that. Like the dead prophets being raised and testifying of Jesus in Jerusalem etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

I believe in the harrowing as well.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I would consider them as evidence, yes. Can you tell me chapter and verse please?

The deuterocanonical book 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 speaks explicitly about the prayer of the living for the dead: "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints


lol OK that wasn't quite the verse I was looking for but still worth remembering for the other end of the issue, I seem to recall a verse where there is some kind of vision of a spirit of a prophet, priest or somebody in the a book of Maccabees interceding or giving a warning, will look for it later, or maybe you can search.



Tobit has to do with an angel Raphael but is kind of a proof text for soliciting help etc. from somebody other than God directly.

Tobit 12


One more point: this phrase, “prayers of the saints,” would have been familiar to any Jew who read the book of Tobit. It comes from Tobit 12:15, where the angel Raphael says, “I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.”

The context reveals that the “prayers of the saints” included the prayer of Tobit and his daughter-in-law. In verse 12, Raphael tells Tobit, “[W]hen you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One.” And so here we have explicit scriptural evidence that the phrase “prayers of the saints” includes the prayers of God’s righteous on earth.

Now, I know you’re probably thinking, “But Protestants don’t accept Tobit as inspired.” That’s true (and unfortunate!). But Tobit still is a historical source for Jewish belief, and at the very least is helpful in trying to discern what a Jew, like John, would have had in mind when he wrote, “prayers of the saints.”

Our appeal to Tobit becomes even more reasonable when we read in Revelation 8:3-4 that the “prayers of the saints,” which are mingled with incense, rise to God from the hand of an angel. Perhaps Raphael?


Defending the Prayers of the Saints

 

[Pavel Mosko]

'We can now invoke them'.

The context of invoking them in Orthodoxy is more along the lines of:
1) They are partaking of the literal Divine Liturgy in heaven
2) They have a vested interest in looking out for the Church that they founded, labored in and would want to pray for those still on earth like the martyrs depicted in Revelation.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I would add that in the EO, prayer to the saints within services, tends to be formal and along the lines of "pray for our salvation":

Commemorating our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.​

The Synaxarion for Oct 24 2021 reads

On October 24, we commemorate the holy Great Martyr Arethas and those with him.
On this day we commemorate a mother and her infant who saw his mother in the fire and threw himself in the fire and both died.
On this day we commemorate the holy martyr Sebastiana.
The holy martyrs Mark, Sotirichos and Valentinos died when they were dragged on the ground.
By the intercessions of Your Saints, O God, have mercy on us. Amen.
​

So IMHO, we're praying with the saints in heaven within the liturgy, where heaven and earth meet in the Eucharist.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

You're not actually invoking them?

I would add that in the EO, prayer to the saints within services, tends to be formal and along the lines of "pray for our salvation":

Commemorating our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.​

The Synaxarion for Oct 24 2021 reads

On October 24, we commemorate the holy Great Martyr Arethas and those with him.
On this day we commemorate a mother and her infant who saw his mother in the fire and threw himself in the fire and both died.
On this day we commemorate the holy martyr Sebastiana.
The holy martyrs Mark, Sotirichos and Valentinos died when they were dragged on the ground.
By the intercessions of Your Saints, O God, have mercy on us. Amen.
​

So IMHO, we're praying with the saints in heaven within the liturgy, where heaven and earth meet in the Eucharist.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Are there examples of Israelites invoking the departed or the angels as members of the Divine Council?
The 2 examples in Maccabees and the 1 in Tobit still concern prayers for the dead, and prayers of the dead or angels for the living, not prayers to the dead (departed) or the angels.

The context of invoking them in Orthodoxy is more along the lines of:
1) They are partaking of the literal Divine Liturgy in heaven
2) They have a vested interest in looking out for the Church that they founded, labored in and would want to pray for those still on earth like the martyrs depicted in Revelation.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

‮בקעי תיבב ודיעהו ועמש:‬ Invoking the Council as Witnesses in Amos 3:13 on JSTOR

I want access

“Hear this and testify against the descendants of Jacob,” declares the Lord, the Lord God Almighty.

Still not there but closer depending on what is meant by 'testify', as in are the witnesses testifying by their own holiness in contrast to wayward Israel or they testifying in the sense of judgement? I think the latter.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

(PDF) The Gods-Complaint: Psalm 82 as a Psalm of Complaint

There's a lot of great stuff in this one.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Are there examples of Israelites invoking the departed or the angels as members of the Divine Council?
The 2 examples in Maccabees and the 1 in Tobit still concern prayers for the dead, and prayers of the dead or angels for the living, not prayers to the dead (departed) or the angels.

Well in Christian terms I think the Harrowing of Hell had a lot to do with it. The fact that the righteous dead are in heaven etc.

James 5

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.


If this this was true for a person living on earth whose ministry had not been proven so to speak in the sense of making it to the other side. And besides that there are passages like 1 Corinthians 3:10-14.
2 Timothy 1:10, 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 etc.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Well in Christian terms I think the Harrowing of Hell had a lot to do with it. The fact that the righteous dead are in heaven etc.

How so? What I mean to ask is, if the saints could intercede before entering heaven, but we're not invoked, what has changed now?

James 5

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.


If this this was true for a person living on earth whose ministry had not been proven so to speak in the sense of making it to the other side. And besides that there are passages like 2 Cor 3: 10-14.
2 Timothy 1:10, 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You're not actually invoking them?

Their are specific times in the some of the liturgies they are greeted with these anaphora chants, and sometimes people requests their prayers and intercessions, but I get the feeling what we do is a small fraction of what is done by Catholics. Just the basic feeling, but also objectively looking at stuff Catholics put out on the internet etc. it seems like the saint thing is bigger with the RC from what I can see.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

How so? What I mean to ask is, if the saints could intercede before entering heaven, but we're not invoked, what has changed now?

What I'm trying to convey is that we would not consider a difference in asking a saint to pray for you vs. you asking your Christian grand mother, or other folks in your congregation to do so over the phone, or in person, or over email.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

In my experience, the invocation of the saints is extra-liturgical in RCism. There is maybe one (during Confession) or possibly two (during the Eucharistic liturgy) where instances occur. But, yes, the rosary, the litanies, the Marian devotions, they are all 'private'.

Their are specific times in the some of the liturgies they are greeted with these anaphora chants, and sometimes people requests their prayers and intercessions, but I get the feeling what we do is a small fraction of what is done by Catholics. Just the basic feeling, but also objectively looking at stuff Catholics put out on the internet etc. it seems like the saint thing is bigger with the RC from what I can see.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I understand, but this is flowing out of logic. If the logic is so apparent, why doesn't Israel's religion lead to the same conclusions?

What I'm trying to convey is that we would not consider a difference in asking a saint to pray for you vs. you asking your Christian grand mother, or other folks in your congregation to do so over the phone, or in person, or over email.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I understand, but this is flowing out of logic. If the logic is so apparent, why doesn't Israel's religion lead to the same conclusions?

OK you know how I mentioned the Harrowing of Hell... think of when that happens, and what was the state of the dead before that?

1) That event didn't happen till around the time of Christ death (where some dead were raised) and his resurrection where the rest of the dead were freed from Sheol. Do you know how late this is in the Biblical history for Judaism? It's very late.


2) Have you studied the history of Revelation and Doctrinal development in the Judeo Christian tradition? It moves slowly. Just the fact that gentile believers should not be circumcised was a big deal.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

OK you know how I mentioned the Harrowing of Hell... think of when that happens, and what was the state of the dead before that?

So, I shouldn't expect to see examples of invocation prior to the resurrection of Christ?

1) That event didn't happen till around the time of Christ death (where some dead were raised) and his resurrection where the rest of the dead were freed from Sheol. Do you know how late this is in the Biblical history for Judaism? It's very late.


2) Have you studied the history of Revelation and Doctrinal development in the Judeo Christian tradition? It moves slowly. Just the fact that gentile believers should not be circumcised was a big deal.

No. I haven't. Do you recommend any books or articles?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So, I shouldn't expect to see examples of invocation prior to the resurrection of Christ?

You mean like requesting stuff of people who are in the bosom of Abraham, sleeping in Sheol/ the Grave?