Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
We were all talking about the process of purification and about Purgatory as the supposed means by which that is accomplished. In that post of mine, however, I was referring to the alleged functioning of Purgatory. And, by the way, the topic of this thread is "A Simple Take on Purgatory."
Earlier, you seemed to be hung up on the name. And now you want to know about the process. I dont think any of us mentioned process
Process and functioning....If you find out, please let the rest of us know.
Yes
I could think of many things more appealing than being in a refiner's fire. But you are right that it is safe in that everyone there knows they are already saved.
No. That parable speaks of the reward of heaven for those who newly come to faith being as good as those who long believed. That the gentiles will have the same reward in heaven as the Jews. Not as second class laborers in a second class heaven.
what I speak to is the same wage indiscriminately given to all workers, as the parable stresses. There are no special cases where some are held back in the time out chair just the same as there is no extra wages. If the thief on the cross immediately went to be with Christ in the last hour "on account of his one act of repentance." as is quoted by St. Thomas, so will others who start the work at the 1st hour.
I think you miss the point that Jesus was referring to, that gentiles have the same reward as Jews even if coming to faith late. We can apply this to someone coming to a deathbed conversion if you want to. But to use it as a prooftext against purgatory is a reach too far. Sorry. I give you credit for trying, but that 'exegesis' don't hunt.
it's not intended to be a proof text which is a little hard to find when the bible speaks nothing of purgatory. The afterlife as a whole is given in broad strokes biblical speaking lacking fine detail but the stokes it does give us does not reveal a middle zone before our reward but rather the reward is immediate. The thief on the cross, the parable of the ungrateful servant, the parable of the of the vineyard are few examples but they are not so unique and really all parables that speak of reward show it without any extra dues owed. What is the point of grace if when we die we need to pay for our sins? did not Christ do this for us? If the thief gets to bypass purgatory because of his suffering upon his death then cannot I do the same because of Christ's suffering? Did he not pay and atone for all my sins on the cross or does he demand interest? or are you saying Christ's atonement is not enough?
And yet that's how you are using it.
The afterlife in the Bible is anything but clear. There is an evolution within the Bible on that. And, yes, it does provide for intermediaries. For one, we have the present state of the dead before the general resurrection, presently souls without bodies who will have bodies later. That is a middle zone.
Your use of parables amazes me. Standard exegesis of parables is that a parable has a punchline but that they are not, except for the rare parable like the grains of wheat, to be considered strict allegories with every item having a theological meaning. Thus, the parable of the workers is that those who arrive late are to be equal members of the kingdom. It's missing the point to make this anti-purgatorial.
You clearly have misunderstood purgatory if you are still harping on this. I don't think you even want to understand it, because then you would find yourself with one less reason not to be Catholic.
I tried to find something in this reply that is useful but there is nothing but accusations. Rather than just telling me I'm wrong and belittling me perhaps you could attempt to honor me with an engaging response. I'm not Catholic as you have deduced but I don't count the reasons why I'm not as you assume. However if I did the way you have engaged me only moves me away from this position and there has been no attempt to pull me in. All truth is worth sharing and defending and if you can't give me that benefit then why do you even bother? What is your motive here?
I was hoping to get you beyond using the parable of the workers as an anti-purgatorial proof text. You seem to think it is. I failed. We are at an impasse.
Hi MM,
That's Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that.
No it isn't.
