A Simple Take on Purgatory

[Major1]

Hi MM,

I'm not sure how you think my post is denying the truth of hell. I'm just explaining how hell isn't a place where God is going to torment people forever and ever. Jesus said that hell was a place where people, and demons, would be tormented forever and ever. He never says that God is going to be the tormentor. Those who find themselves in hell will be tormented forever and ever, but I'm confident that the torment will be their own striving to continue fulfilling their lusts. So please understand that I'm not at all denying anything Jesus said about hell. I have full confidence and assurance that every word from the lips of Jesus will be fulfilled and come to pass just exactly as he said it would.

God bless,
in Christ, ted

If God allows Satan to be the tormentor, isn't He then the tormentor of the wicked?

 

[Major1]

That's Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that.

No it isn't.

As a general thing (eg, not directed at you specifically), people seem to object to Purgatory because they view it as an issue of justification. I don't know why but that's how it is. But when they're told that Purgatory is not a matter of justification but sanctification... well, honestly, a lot of them still object to it anyway because they don't understand what sanctification or justification mean. But at least the actual meaning of the doctrine is out there.

The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27...…….
"it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement".

In other words, the moment you die, before your body even enters the grave, your eternal fate is sealed. There is no Overtime, No timeouts, No mulligans, No do overs!

DEATH is the end.

You will either go to heaven or hell, forever! That in no way whatsoever implies an act of "Sanctification" my dear friend.

Again my friend...…..there are NO Bible Scriptures which allow for the RCC doctrine of Purgatory. Please feel free to believe that there is such a thing but please understand that it can not be supported by any Scriptures at all.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Again my friend...…..there are NO Bible Scriptures which allow for the RCC doctrine of Purgatory

Of course there is.

 

[Major1]

The Reformed view has been that the souls of the righteous are made perfect at death in a momentary purgation.

Agree.

 

[thecolorsblend]

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[Major1]

Of course there is.

You saying that over and over does not make it so.

Then again, for at least the 4th time...…...quote the book, chapter and verse!

Allow me to help you. You will no doubt use 1 Corth. 3:15 which says...……..
“If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

The correct understanding of that passage is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, silver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire.

The passage refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

 

[Major1]

Also, the above handily demonstrates that you don’t understand the function and purpose of Purgatory. I’m not sure you understand what sanctification is either, tbh.

I have to disagree my friend. I am very well aware of both.

But allow me to say to you that Purgatory according to the RCC teaching is...……….
'According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), purgatory is a “final purification” (CCC 1031) which is afforded to “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” so that they might “achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).'

Essentially this means that purgatory is a sort of temporary purifying punishment which is typically thought of as a cleansing fire which is incorrectly seen in 1 Cor. 3:15.
But this begs the question, is purgatory a sort of physical, fiery place full of souls or a condition?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him useful to God.

In the past, God granted us justification, which is a once-for-all, positional holiness in Christ when we accept Him as our Saviour. Then God guides us to maturity, a practical, progressive holiness which is a process of being "Sanctified", growing into what God knows we can be for Him.

In the future, God will give us glorification, a permanent, ultimate holiness. These three phases of sanctification separate the believer from the penalty of sin (justification), the power of sin (maturity), and the presence of sin (glorification).
(Recommended Resource: Pleasing God: Discovering the Meaning and Importance of Sanctification by R.C. Sproul)

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Of course there is.

I can't think of any no strong ones anyway.

If there was a Purgatory it should be explained very clearly in the Bible in several places? But, it seems it is not.
M-Bob

 

[thecolorsblend]

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[Mountainmanbob]

Not really though.

Are you serious? We can both go over to the eschatology section right now and read threads of people verbally beating each other up over Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and all that nonsense using the exact same verses as one another. And yet you say that these doctrines are clearly and specifically articulated in Sacred Scripture?

Citing the scriptural passage(s) is, in any case, beside the point. Others can believe whatever they want. I'm not especially interested in persuading them; only in sharing my beliefs.

No verses?

 

[miamited]

If God allows Satan to be the tormentor, isn't He then the tormentor of the wicked?

Hi major1,

I didn't claim that Satan was the tormentor either. I merely said that he will be there. I said that those in hell will live a life of fairly constant torment just by the fact of who they are living with and that no one will have any hope. That existence will have people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Timothy McVeigh and Atilla the Hun and Adolph Hitler and just all the wicked people who never gained forgiveness for their sin through the blood of God's Son. An existence with billions upon billions of people who lie, steal, cheat, beat for the rest of their eternal lives. An existence filled with every kind of greed and avarice that both men and angels can conceive. An existence like that will be like living in the worst prison that one could ever imagine and it will create a life of constant torment.

Those people will be tormented every day of their eternal lives just by the fact that there will be no peace or satisfaction in anyone's life and so everyone will suffer torment trying to quench their wicked desires. It won't be God and it won't be Satan causing the torment.

Imagine if you will someone who in this life has some disfiguring body affliction. Every day they feel tormented listening to others laughing because they think they're laughing about them. Every day they feel tormented when they see people in conversation point their direction because they think that they must be talking about them. They watch as parents pull their children away from any possible contact. They listen to the whispers of others around them and know that they're being talked about.

The Scriptures tell us that both Satan and the other demonic angels will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Then it tells us that all those whose names were not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will likewise be cast into the Lake of Fire. That will create an existence where everyone of those who are in that place will feel like that poor tormented soul that imagines that everyone is talking about them. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever and it won't be because God is tormenting them or Satan. It will be because they will never quench the burning thirst of their ungodly lusts. Their torment will be of their own making.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[URA]

Actually there is NO simple take on Purgatory because there is in fact NO take at all.

Purgatory is NOT a Bible doctrine at all. It comes from the mind of men and not God.

Any Catholic believer is free to express his wishes and support Purgatory as his Churches teaching BUT IT can not be defended Biblically in any way.

Hate to break it to you, but literally every doctrine of the Catholic church is based in Scripture. If you don't believe me, take it from an Evangelical Protestant who did an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism, and converted. Biblical Defense of Catholicism

It's just that people often don't see how Catholic teaching fits into Biblical teaching, partly because many are "taught" so early on that Catholics don't follow the Bible, partly because the Bible is a complicated book that can't be reduced to easy proof texts, and there's a host of other reasons, but I'll leave it at that.

 

[Major1]

Hi major1,

I didn't claim that Satan was the tormentor either. I merely said that he will be there. I said that those in hell will live a life of fairly constant torment just by the fact of who they are living with and that no one will have any hope. That existence will have people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Timothy McVeigh and Atilla the Hun and Adolph Hitler and just all the wicked people who never gained forgiveness for their sin through the blood of God's Son. An existence with billions upon billions of people who lie, steal, cheat, beat for the rest of their eternal lives. An existence filled with every kind of greed and avarice that both men and angels can conceive. An existence like that will be like living in the worst prison that one could ever imagine and it will create a life of constant torment.

Those people will be tormented every day of their eternal lives just by the fact that there will be no peace or satisfaction in anyone's life and so everyone will suffer torment trying to quench their wicked desires. It won't be God and it won't be Satan causing the torment.

Imagine if you will someone who in this life has some disfiguring body affliction. Every day they feel tormented listening to others laughing because they think they're laughing about them. Every day they feel tormented when they see people in conversation point their direction because they think that they must be talking about them. They watch as parents pull their children away from any possible contact. They listen to the whispers of others around them and know that they're being talked about.

The Scriptures tell us that both Satan and the other demonic angels will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Then it tells us that all those whose names were not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will likewise be cast into the Lake of Fire. That will create an existence where everyone of those who are in that place will feel like that poor tormented soul that imagines that everyone is talking about them. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever and it won't be because God is tormenting them or Satan. It will be because they will never quench the burning thirst of their ungodly lusts. Their torment will be of their own making.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I actually agree with you Ted. All I am saying is that Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment.

WHO it is that does the actual "tormenting" is not important to me personally.

It seems to me that the real flames of hell will be torment enough.

 

[Major1]

Hate to break it to you, but literally every doctrine of the Catholic church is based in Scripture. If you don't believe me, take it from an Evangelical Protestant who did an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism, and converted. Biblical Defense of Catholicism

It's just that people often don't see how Catholic teaching fits into Biblical teaching, partly because many are "taught" so early on that Catholics don't follow the Bible, partly because the Bible is a complicated book that can't be reduced to easy proof texts, and there's a host of other reasons, but I'll leave it at that.

Actually, I am glad to hear to say that my friend. I have no desire to argue with anyone.

All I will do is say that Having done this for some time now, allow me to ask you where in the Scriptures can be find and validate some of the following Catholic doctrines? Please post the Book, chapter and verse for proper validation...……..

1. Prayers for the dead.
2. Sign of the Cross.
3. Veneration of angels and dead saints.
4. Purgatory.
5. The worship of Mary, and the use of the term, "Mother of God".
6. The celibacy of the priesthood .
7. The Rosary.
8. Transubstantiation.
9. Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year.
10.The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent

 

[Major1]

Not really though.

Are you serious? We can both go over to the eschatology section right now and read threads of people verbally beating each other up over Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and all that nonsense using the exact same verses as one another. And yet you say that these doctrines are clearly and specifically articulated in Sacred Scripture?

Citing the scriptural passage(s) is, in any case, beside the point. Others can believe whatever they want. I'm not especially interested in persuading them; only in sharing my beliefs.

What you just did is to refuse to answer the question. You suggest we talk about eschatology!!!!! Your answer to where in the Bible is the doctrine of Purgatory is to go and talk about the 2nd Coming of Christ.

So then by YOUR spinning of your response.....YOU do not know of any Scripture which says anything about Purgatory.

The reason YOU have not posted a Scripture validating Purgatory is because there are NONE. YOU would be better off to simply admit that Purgatory is an invention of the RCC and is not found in the Scriptures than to continue to try and spin something that does not exist.

As I have stated now several times, YOU are free to believe whatever you want to believe and you are free to expound YOUR personal beliefs and I encourage you to do just that.

All I am saying and all that I have said is that YOU can not claim a Catholic doctrine as BIBLICAL when it is not found IN THE BIBLE at all.

 

[thecolorsblend]

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[Major1]

Indeed I did.

Um, no. No, I didn’t.

Looks like we can add “analogy” to the list of things you don’t understand.

Whether you "Did or didn't" is not the issue.

Instead of focusing on what I do or do not understand, why not respond to the question I asked of you and lets get away from the personal accusations.....shall we?

The fact is that YOU still have not posted the Scriptures to validate your claim that Purgatory is found in the Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

I can't think of any no strong ones anyway.

If there was a Purgatory it should be explained very clearly in the Bible in several places? But, it seems it is not.
M-Bob

You are correct Bob. Not only is there NO command, no explination, No mention and not one single time is there even a suggestion or hint of such a practice or place.

 

[Major1]

No verses?

There never are because there are NO Scriptures to find!

 

[thecolorsblend]

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