A Simple Take on Purgatory

[Albion]

I "made up" nothing. I was asking a question that is relevant to the discussion. Apparently you don't have an answer, which is fine, because someone else may.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What is the reason for assuming that some elaborate and mechanical process must be required for this purification (like some celestial oil change or tire rotation)?

We do not say that when God forgives, for example, he has to shuffle a lot of papers on his desk and have a signed confession from you in advance. Why cannot the purification that is always referred to (in preference to purgation, which sounds less nice) not simply occur in an instant as, for example, when the soul passes from this life to the next?? Or something else similar to that?

Why have the elaborate process of the Son of God incarnating and then dying for our sins when it all could have been done in an instant? Reducing things to utter simplicity might be appealing, but then you have to wonder why God used an elaborate process to save us. The objection is the same.

 

[concretecamper]

OK so when do you say we are purified?

First, we have to define "we". "We" are those destined for Heaven. And as the scriptures demonstrate, purification, happens before we enter Heaven.

 

[concretecamper]

I "made up" nothing. I was asking a question that is relevant to the discussion. Apparently you don't have an answer, which is fine, because someone else may.

It seems you are reducing God to nothing more than a magician who will snap His fingers and change the "saved". God is not a magician

 

[Original Happy Camper]

First, we have to define "we". "We" are those destined for Heaven. And as the scriptures demonstrate, purification, happens before we enter Heaven.

I was very specific in my answer can you please be specific in yours? When does it happen?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

We all can "make it up" like you are doing here. But making things up doesnt help the discussion

The bible answers this issue
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Man does nothing to be purified GOD does it all

 

[Albion]

It seems you are reducing God to nothing more than a magician who will snap His fingers and change the "saved". God is not a magician

I didn't say or imply anything of the sort. The question is straightforward--since Purgatory and its workings are almost entirely a matter of speculation and reasoning on the part of the church, why is it assumed that the process will take some time and, for example, that the souls in question will have to go to a separate state or place in the afterlife to undergo this or that process?

 

[concretecamper]

Man does nothing to be purified GOD does it all

No one is arguing that God doesnt purify the soul.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

No one is arguing that God doesnt purify the soul.

↑
"First, we have to define "we". "We" are those destined for Heaven. And as the scriptures demonstrate, purification, happens before we enter Heaven."

I was very specific in my answer can you please be specific in yours? When does it happen?

Example
now here on this earth because it happens before we enter heaven"

 

[concretecamper]

"First, we have to define "we". "We" are those destined for Heaven. And as the scriptures demonstrate, purification, happens before we enter Heaven."

This is my quote. And you bolded a very specific statement.

now here on this earth

It can.

because it happens before we enter heaven"

This is what I said.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The bible answers this issue
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Man does nothing to be purified GOD does it all

Man, those men and women who are saved, get purified. It happens to them. The best they can do is accept the purification God provides them. Purgatory is not a 'work' as you seem to want to make it out to be, but a purification. Much like gold in a refiner's fire doesn't 'do anything' to be refined, we will be purified and not work to purify ourselves.

 

[fat wee robin]

Don't forget the thief on the cross. If he went through purgatory it must have been the drive through version.

He suffered to die on a cross , which was not only very painful ,but humiliating .
He suffered a kind of purgatory !!
I believe neither the Protestant or Catholic version , but it is sure that we must be purified before entering permanently into 'Heaven ', and the thief was purified by pain ,and the realisation ,of who Jesus was !
We are saved not from pain ,but from Eternal death ,so yes, there is pain until we no longer are capable of 'sin' .

 

[fat wee robin]

'What I presume you to have intended was 'not on trial'.

His was a baptism in blood. He paid for his crimes but his death was also how he was baptized. In that baptism he was fully cleaned, a new creation, purified, made new in Christ, and without further opportunity to sin he had no need of further purgation. So 'this day' he could be in paradise. You and I have failed again and again so we are not the unsullied new creation we were when we first came to Christ and were reborn.

Said it better than I could , bravo !

 

[concretecamper]

since Purgatory and its workings are almost entirely a matter of speculation and reasoning on the part of the church

False premise. Scripture and Tradition affirms purification of the soul before it enters Heaven.

why is it assumed that the process will take some time

Another false premise, the "time" as you put it isn't defined.

that the souls in question will have to go to a separate state or place in the afterlife to undergo this or that process?

Because it may not happen here on earth and as Scripture and Tradition affirms must happen before the souls in question enter Heaven.

 

[Albion]

False premise. Scripture and Tradition affirms purification of the soul before it enters Heaven.

I very clearly wrote PURGATORY in my post and was referring specifically to the doctrine concerning Purgatory.

Another false premise, the "time" as you put it isn't defined.

We know that, but the people who believe in Purgatory, including the RCC itself, describe varying lengths of time spent in Purgatory as being necessary according to how much "purifying" has to be done.

 

[concretecamper]

I very clearly wrote PURGATORY in my post and was referring specifically to the doctrine concerning Purgatory

No...the rest of us are talking about final purification the soul needs before it enters Heaven. You seem to be hung up on what the place/state is called. The Church refers to it as Purgatory. You may call it what you wish.

We know that,

It doesnt appear that way.

but the people who believe in Purgatory, including the RCC itself, describe varying lengths of time spent in Purgatory as being necessary according to how much "purifying" has to be done.

Yes

 

[Tree of Life]

Wrong

Do you believe that the person quoted in the OP is getting purgatory wrong? They speak of punishment and God's righteous wrath toward sin.

 

[concretecamper]

Do you believe that the person quoted in the OP is getting purgatory wrong? They speak of punishment and God's righteous wrath toward sin.

I believe that the same 'ol people are up to their same 'ol tricks

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

It seems you are reducing God to nothing more than a magician who will snap His fingers and change the "saved". God is not a magician

Sounds a little like saying the words and having an entire universe pop into existence.

 

[concretecamper]

Sounds a little like saying the words and having an entire universe pop into existence.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thank you.