A Simple Take on Purgatory

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

Just came across this article on purgatory & hope. The entire article is good, but I wanted to draw special attention to a cited quote from St. Thomas More:

“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”

Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More

 

[Tree of Life]

Just came across this article on purgatory & hope. The entire article is good, but I wanted to draw special attention to a cited quote from St. Thomas More:

“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”

Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More

The only problem I see with this is the good news that Jesus propitiates God's wrath for our sin. He took the punishment that was due to us so that there is now "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". (Romans 8:1).

This notion of purgatory is a denial of the gospel.

 

[St_Worm2]

St. Thomas More:

“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”

Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More

Hi Alex, I agree with Tree. Does your church teach that Jesus' death atoned for the stain of Original Sin only by any chance? If not, and your church teaches that His death atones for/satisfies/propitiates, and thereby allows for the forgiveness of all of our personal trespasses and sins .. e.g. 1 John 1:9, then why would God punish us for sin that has already been forgiven in Christ?

Thanks!

--David

 

[chevyontheriver]

The only problem I see with this is the good news that Jesus propitiates God's wrath for our sin. He took the punishment that was due to us so that there is now "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". (Romans 8:1).

This notion of purgatory is a denial of the gospel.

True only if those in purgatory were instead condemned to hell, which is not the case. Purgatory is only open for the saved for whom there is no wrath. Only a purification.

 

[Tree of Life]

True only if those in purgatory were instead condemned to hell, which is not the case. Purgatory is only open for the saved for whom there is no wrath. Only a purification.

No denying that a final purification is needed. But the Roman Church has never spoken exclusively in terms of purification. They speak in terms of wrath and punishment.

 

[Basil the Great]

The only problem I see with this is the good news that Jesus propitiates God's wrath for our sin. He took the punishment that was due to us so that there is now "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". (Romans 8:1).

This notion of purgatory is a denial of the gospel.

It would seem that you are right, for the most part. However, Jesus did say that we must be perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Hence, said verse might well mean that some form of purification will be needed after death. Having said that, I think that the traditional Catholic view of Purgatory as "a burning away of sins" sounds too much like pain and torture. If it exists and this is one Protestant who tends to think that it does, I suspect that it is more like watching a review of your life and/or going to school.

 

[Tree of Life]

It would seem that you are right, for the most part. However, Jesus did say that we must be perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Hence, said verse might well mean that some form of purification will be needed after death. Having said that, I think that the traditional Catholic view of Purgatory as "a burning away of sins" sounds too much like pain and torture. If it exists and this is one Protestant who tends to think that it does, I suspect that it is more like watching a review of your life and/or going to school.

The Reformed view has been that the souls of the righteous are made perfect at death in a momentary purgation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

No denying that a final purification is needed. But the Roman Church has never spoken exclusively in terms of purification. They speak in terms of wrath and punishment.

Well, even the name of it speaks of purification.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Reformed view has been that the souls of the righteous are made perfect at death in a momentary purgation.

So you DO believe in purgatory? Wow!

 

[Tree of Life]

So you DO believe in purgatory? Wow!

I don't think so. The Roman concept of purgatory has always included the idea of suffering punishment and God's wrath.

 

[St_Worm2]

It would seem that you are right, for the most part. However, Jesus did say that we must be perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Hence, said verse might well mean that some form of purification will be needed after death.

Hi Basil, how do you elicit such a meaning from Romans 8:1? (or did you mean a different verse?) Thanks!

If it exists, and this is one Protestant who tends to think that it does, I suspect that it is more like watching a review of your life and/or going to school.

Hey, that's just like the movie that's called, Defending Your Life, with Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep, only that movie was by Scientologists and about Scientology wasn't it?

Purgatory got far better representation in the far better movie called, Groundhog Day, at least IMHO it did anyway

--David

 

[Basil the Great]

No, I was referring to a verse from the Gospels that quotes Jesus, namely, Matthew 5:48

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

C. S. Lewis talked about purgatory as an extension of God's grace. He used imagery something like this to defend his point:

Imagine you're dead, you've gone up to the pearly gates. Your clothes are torn up, your whole body is coated in mud, your breathe stinks, and you're just all-around nasty (this referring to our sin, of course). St. Peter walks over to you, and says, "Hey, come on in to heaven!"

You reply, "Uh, thank you, but can I take a shower & change first?"

He replies, "Oh, you're fine, come on in!"

And you say, "No, really, I want to take a shower, clean up, look nicer, and then I'll come in."

And cleaning up will hurt; you've got open wounds, and the mouthwash will burn, but this is all preparation for entering heaven; Revelation 21:27 says "Nothing impure will ever enter it [heaven]...", and all the verses about being cleansed from sin, such as 1 John 1:9, fit in quite nicely with Lewis' analogy of a cleansing before entering heaven. Romans 8:1 says "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", and purgatory isn't condemnation, it's cleansing before your promised stay in heaven. As the article so beautifully stated, purgatory is a place of hope.

I think that's covered everything that's been brought up; hope it helps!

 

[Original Happy Camper]

If it exists and this is one Protestant who tends to think that it does,

Would you please take this verse out of what ever bible you use as it refutes your stated belief

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead know nothing
no more a reward
no memory

Your fate is sealed at death no second chance

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don't think so. The Roman concept of purgatory has always included the idea of suffering punishment and God's wrath.

The Biblical concept has included a refiner's fire. I don't know how much you know of metallurgy but it generally does involve a lot of heat, even melting the metal.

 

[Tree of Life]

The Biblical concept has included a refiner's fire. I don't know how much you know of metallurgy but it generally does involve a lot of heat, even melting the metal.

You seem to be avoiding the issue. Do you admit that the Roman doctrine of purgatory involves being punished for sins and propitiating God's wrath? Or do you deny that Rome teaches this?

 

[chevyontheriver]

You seem to be avoiding the issue. Do you admit that the Roman doctrine of purgatory involves being punished for sins and propitiating God's wrath? Or do you deny that Rome teaches this?

Not avoiding the issue. Purgatory is unpleasant. Like being inside a refiner's fire would be unpleasant. But it is a purification, as is even clear by the name of 'purgatory'. And I do deny it has anything to do with God's wrath. It is God's preparation of us to purify those who are already saved so we are ready for heaven.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not avoiding the issue. Purgatory is unpleasant. Like being inside a refiner's fire would be unpleasant. But it is a purification, as is even clear by the name of 'purgatory'. And I do deny it has anything to do with God's wrath. It is God's preparation of us to purify those who are already saved so we are ready for heaven.

Well it's good to see that you deny it. But I think that this puts you at odds with your own church. See the quote in the OP having to do with "punishment" and also see CCC 1031.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well it's good to see that you deny it. But I think that this puts you at odds with your own church. See the quote in the OP having to do with "punishment" and also see CCC 1031.

You mean this CCC 1031? Which seems to be just what I have been saying? I'm not at odds here.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

You might want to look at CCC 1030 - 1032 before supposing it supports your position.

 

[Tree of Life]

You mean this CCC 1031? Which seems to be just what I have been saying? I'm not at odds here.


You might want to look at CCC 1030 - 1032 before supposing it supports your position.

It speaks of attaining the forgiveness of sins through suffering. Not just purification. Forgiveness.