A Simple Take on Purgatory

[chevyontheriver]

It speaks of attaining the forgiveness of sins through suffering. Not just purification. Forgiveness.

He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

What this says is that not ever sin is mortal. So it is purification.

 

[Basil the Great]

Would you please take this verse out of what ever bible you use as it refutes your stated belief

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead know nothing
no more a reward
no memory

Your fate is sealed at death no second chance

There is nothing in Scripture which affirms Purgatory or anything like it. However, as Jesus strongly implied in Matthew, somehow, someway, we are apparently expected to attain perfection at some point. Obviously, not many Christians attain perfection in this life. Hence, it would seem that there must be some form of purification after death. However, I do not see it as a form of punishment, but what form it might take I do not know. Perhaps it is something like Tree of Life is pointing to?

 

[DamianWarS]

Just came across this article on purgatory & hope. The entire article is good, but I wanted to draw special attention to a cited quote from St. Thomas More:

“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”

Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More

sin is liken to great debts in parables that would be impossible to pay off but the debts are completely forgiven without any requirement to pay even a smallest amount back. St. Thomas's demand that God must punish seems to conflict these parables. if St. Thomas is right then who could possibly escape purgatory?

 

[Tayla]

For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance

Since nothing unclean enters heaven, and since we are supposedly totally depraved (our sins merely covered by the blood of Christ), at what point are we made clean? The only possibility is purgatory.

 

[Albion]

sin is liken to great debts in parables that would be impossible to pay off but the debts are completely forgiven without any requirement to pay even a smallest amount back. St. Thomas's demand that God must punish seems to conflict these parables. if St. Thomas is right then who could possibly escape purgatory?

According to the church, no one (or almost no one, leaving aside the few exceptions such as the Virgin Mary or perhaps someone who suffers during the upheaval that will accompany the end of the world, after which time it is taught that Purgatory will be no more).

 

[DamianWarS]

According to the church, no one (or almost no one, leaving aside the few exceptions such as the Virgin Mary or perhaps someone who suffers during the upheaval that will accompany the end of the world, after which time it is taught that Purgatory will be no more).

Don't forget the thief on the cross. If he went through purgatory it must have been the drive through version.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Purgatory is only open for the saved for whom there is no wrath. Only a purification.

We will be purified when we are glorified.

The Bible does not mention Purgatory but, man would wish for it to be.

That's man for you.

M-Bob

 

[concretecamper]

The Roman concept of purgatory has always included the idea of suffering punishment and God's wrath.

Wrong

 

[concretecamper]

Your fate is sealed at death no second chance

Correct, but this opinion in no way refutes the need for purification.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

There is nothing in Scripture which affirms Purgatory or anything like it. However, as Jesus strongly implied in Matthew, somehow, someway, we are apparently expected to attain perfection at some point. Obviously, not many Christians attain perfection in this life. Hence, it would seem that there must be some form of purification after death. However, I do see it as a form of punishment, but what form it might take I do not know. Perhaps it is something like Tree of Life is pointing to?

The bible answers this issue
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When does this happen you might ask AT THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Correct, but this opinion in no way refutes the need for purification.

THE BIBLE ANSWERS THIS PURIFICATION ISSUE

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[concretecamper]

THE BIBLE ANSWERS THIS PURIFICATION ISSUE

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Doesnt refute the need for purification

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Doesnt refute the need for purification

OK so when do you say we are purified?

 

[chevyontheriver]

sin is liken to great debts in parables that would be impossible to pay off but the debts are completely forgiven without any requirement to pay even a smallest amount back. St. Thomas's demand that God must punish seems to conflict these parables. if St. Thomas is right then who could possibly escape purgatory?

On their own, nobody, of course. But if we look at it as the fire of God's love which purifies those who are already in some sort of friendship with God, then nothing is impossible. You don't want to believe in purgatory, and nothing will change your mind. I consider it a consolation that even though I cannot make myself pure, that God has my redemption, and then even my final purification figured out even if and when I die imperfected.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Don't forget the thief on the cross. If he went through purgatory it must have been the drive through version.

He went through a terrible martyrdom instead. It's not like he escaped anything.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We will be purified when we are glorified.

Our purification is part of the glorification. We agree. Of course you can say we disagree if you want to.

The Bible does not mention Purgatory but, man would wish for it to be.

The Bible does not mention the Trinity, but it's there. The Bible does mention prayers for the dead, but that got ripped out of some people's Bibles. The Bible does mention the refiner's fire in many many places. We know no unclean thing enters heaven, and we know ourselves to know we are sullied enough to need a purification. You even noted yourself that there is a purification.

That's man for you.

Yup. Arguing over things that any Jewish kid would have known, that we should pray for the dead.

 

[DamianWarS]

He went through a terrible martyrdom instead. It's not like he escaped anything.

I think implicit in the text is that the thief was justly being punished for a capital crime and he was not a martyr as his faith in God was not on trail.

St. Thomas has his own thoughts on the subject:

The affections of the heart are more acceptable to God than external acts. Now man is absolved from both punishment and guilt by means of external actions; and therefore he is also by means of the heart’s affections, such as contrition is. Further, we have an example of this in the thief, to whom it was said (Luke 23:43): "This day shalt thou be with Me in paradise," on account of his one act of repentance.

St. Thomas seems to want it both ways

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think implicit in the text is that the thief was justly being punished for a capital crime and he was not a martyr as his faith in God was not trail.

'What I presume you to have intended was 'not on trial'.

His was a baptism in blood. He paid for his crimes but his death was also how he was baptized. In that baptism he was fully cleaned, a new creation, purified, made new in Christ, and without further opportunity to sin he had no need of further purgation. So 'this day' he could be in paradise. You and I have failed again and again so we are not the unsullied new creation we were when we first came to Christ and were reborn.

 

[Albion]

Correct, but this opinion in no way refutes the need for purification.

What is the reason for assuming that some elaborate and mechanical process must be required for this purification (like some celestial oil change or tire rotation)?

We do not say that when God forgives, for example, he has to shuffle a lot of papers on his desk and have a signed confession from you in advance. Why cannot the purification that is always referred to (in preference to purgation, which sounds less nice) not simply occur in an instant as, for example, when the soul passes from this life to the next?? Or something else similar to that?

 

[concretecamper]

What is the reason for assuming that some elaborate and mechanical process must be required for this purification (like some celestial oil change or tire rotation)?

We do not say that when God forgives, for example, he has to shuffle a lot of papers on his desk and have a signed confession from you in advance. Why cannot the purification that is always referred to (in preference to purgation, which sounds less nice) not simply occur in an instant as, for example, when the soul passes from this life to the next?? Or something else similar to that?

We all can "make it up" like you are doing here. But making things up doesnt help the discussion