A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Moral Orel]

Part of why women find themselves being discriminated against such as in the workplace is because they are women and pregnancy happens to be part of that. How can you describe the maternity penalty as a factor in women’s disadvantage in the workplace, without associating women with pregnancy.

What specifically is the "maternity penalty"? I asked what the message was and what rights were needing stood up for, but you didn't answer those questions.

If a male can identify as a women then part of transgender ideology is to also minimize the ability of cis women being able to get pregnant

You must mean something else. No one is out there sterilizing cis women to take away their ability to get pregnant.

 

[Kylie]

I am talking about if the government brought in legislation that forced people to use a certain language. That is controlling the way we think and speak and violating freedom of speech.

So you don't mind acting a certain way, but if the government introduces penalties for not doing it, you get all upset?

"Yeah, I wouldn't steal from people, but if the government makes it illegal to steal, then I'm gonna be mad about it!"

 

[Moral Orel]

So you don't mind acting a certain way, but if the government introduces penalties for not doing it, you get all upset?

"Yeah, I wouldn't steal from people, but if the government makes it illegal to steal, then I'm gonna be mad about it!"

Do you think that everything you find to be immoral should be illegal?

 

[Kaon]

How about if we just don’t address it? When referring to men vs women, when deciding which public restroom or shower facility to use, when unsure to call someone a ma'am or sir, instead of assuming gender, why not just assume sex? The difference? Sex refers to biology, (XX vs XY chromosomes, sex organs, etc) where as gender refers to perceived social roles based on sex.

When I speak to people, if I use the pronoun he or she, I’m referring to their sex not their gender. I’m making an assumption of their biology, not whatever confusion they might have going on inside of their heads. If a biological woman identifies as a man, she shouldn’t assume I am addressing her identification when I call her she, this woman should assume I am referring to her biology.

Does this make sense? Your thoughts?

Ken

Why is everyone so Babylonian/confused? If we are back to "I feel in the mind I am X even though I was born physically Y", then why did we run the psychology of sexuality out of academia in the 70s and 80s?

Why the heck do HUMANS keep repeating the same confusion every age?

Language evolves, but context is founded. There is no reason to be silent in the face of cultural change. There is no reason not to be staunch on a position if there is respect.

 

[Kylie]

Do you think that everything you find to be immoral should be illegal?

Don't know how you figured that was what I was trying to say.

 

[stevevw]

What specifically is the "maternity penalty"? I asked what the message was and what rights were needing stood up for, but you didn't answer those questions.

I would have thought that was self explanatory. The maternity penalty is any issue associated with being pregnant that causes women a penalty (disadvantage) such as being sacked, losing income, job title, promotions etc because they are pregnant. To articulate support you have to identify that it is women who suffer these setbacks not people because the discrimination is aimed at a specific gender being women and detail how women compared to men in the workplace are affected as far as pay, career etc.

But being pregnant is part of a bigger issue of discrimination and unequal opportunities compared to men so this can apply to a range of issues that women specifically suffer. Saying some people are discriminated against in the work place hardly inspires standing up for women's rights. It would be the same for detailing how men in the work force are getting paid more compared to women.

You must mean something else. No one is out there sterilizing cis women to take away their ability to get pregnant.

Sorry I mean transgender activists want to minimize the fact that cis women can get pregnant as it represents the fact that women are different to men.

 

[Moral Orel]

Don't know how you figured that was what I was trying to say.

If it's okay for folks to find things immoral but think they should be legal, then it's okay to choose to use people's preferred pronouns but think it shouldn't be illegal to not do so. He said he'll use the preferred pronouns. What more do you want? Him to support legislation that demands everyone else does too?

ETA I'm jumping into this conversation because I see things the same way. Freedom of speech is a thing to be valued in and of itself and should be protected against frivolous restrictions.

 

[RDKirk]

I should have every right to say, "I am a woman, and you will address me as such."

You can make that statement, but I don't see from where comes an obligation for anyone to accept your assertion.

If the person insists on calling you "guy" or "dude" what recourse do you have beyond appeal to a source of coercion for agreement that you have such a "right."

 

[stevevw]

So you don't mind acting a certain way, but if the government introduces penalties for not doing it, you get all upset?

"Yeah, I wouldn't steal from people, but if the government makes it illegal to steal, then I'm gonna be mad about it!"

Stealing is different, First it is a law preventing people from doing what is regarded as wrong and not a law making people speak a certain way. The government has never made people speak a certain way in free speaking nations. Second it is a criminal offense where you can end up in prison. If we got to the point where we were imprisoned for not using a certain language then that would be a dictatorship like in North Korea. In western democratic and free societies we have freedom of speech and part of that is the right to formulate your own thoughts, speech, beliefs etc under the human rights conventions.

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction.The term "freedom of expression" is sometimes used synonymously but includes any act of seeking, receiving, and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

Freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the UDHR states that "everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice".
Freedom of speech - Wikipedia

Article 18 of the ICCPR protects the right to think freely and to entertain ideas and hold positions based on conscientious or religious or other beliefs. ... The Government may not impose restrictions on the right to hold positions based on religious or other belief, nor may it impose religious or other beliefs. This entails protection against brainwashing or indoctrination.
Right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion or belief | Attorney-General's Department

 

[RDKirk]

Okay...

Let's say we have a person. Their gender identity tells them that they are a woman, and they wish to be referred to with feminine pronouns. But this person was born with a penis.

Will you refer to them as:

1. Him
2. Her
3. They
4. It

Which number please?

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. If he looks like a woman, or looks like he intends to look like a woman, I'd call him a "her" unless he insists on giving more more intimate information than a casual meeting requires. In that case I'd be put off by being dragged into such unnecessary information, and not continue the conversation. It would not be going in a direction I need to follow it.

 

[stevil]

instead of assuming gender, why not just assume sex? The difference? Sex refers to biology, (XX vs XY chromosomes, sex organs, etc) where as gender refers to perceived social roles based on sex.

My definition of those words are different to yours.
Gender to me is with regards to your physical make up. XX chromosome denotes a female gender. XY denotes male gender. It does get blurry though when people have operations to alter sexual organs or hormone levels.

In such cases, it doesn't matter what I think, it only matters what they think. If they want to be referred to as having a specific gender, then that is politely how I will refer to them.

"sex" to me is an act of reproduction.

When I speak to people, if I use the pronoun he or she, I’m referring to their sex not their gender.

If a person looks physically male, I will use "he" and if physically female I will use "she" - unless this person has otherwise told me what pronoun they would like to be recognised as. If they are obviously transgender then I will use the pronoun of what they are trying to be, rather than what they physically appear as (to me) unless they have otherwise told me what to call them.
At all times I try to be the utmost respectful to them, to the person I am conversing with or referring to.
Respect is the key.

I’m making an assumption of their biology, not whatever confusion they might have going on inside of their heads.

I would consider this approach to be stubborn and disrespectful.
It doesn't hurt to be respectful does it?
Just like when Cassius Clay changed his name to Mohammad Ali.
To respect him, you need to call him by his preferred name. You don't get bonus points for calling him Cassius, you just annoy him. Why do that?

If a biological woman identifies as a man, she shouldn’t assume I am addressing her identification when I call her she, this woman should assume I am referring to her biology.

Why is it so hard for you to respectfully address her, how she wants to be addressed?

 

[stevevw]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. If he looks like a woman, or looks like he intends to look like a woman, I'd call him a "her" unless he insists on giving more more intimate information than a casual meeting requires. In that case I'd be put off by being dragged into such unnecessary information, and not continue the conversation. It would not be going in a direction I need to follow it.

I also think in social settings we don't stop to always ask people these things and go along with social norms. We see a person in sports gear and we usually work out that they have something to do with sports, we see a well dressed person and we assess them as being intelligent or having a well paid job or even going to an official meeting or occasion. That may not be the right thing to do in all situations but it is how people operate. So with all these additional gender pronouns we are suddenly introducing a new set of words into the equation in how we should address peoples gender which will cause a lot of conflict and confusion.

There will be many mistakes and perhaps even more discomfort and offense than what people perceive is harmful now by not using appropriate pronouns. It would make introductions and social settings awkward. if you don't get the information on what pronoun to use then there is a high risk of offending. If you ask someone you may think requires a certain pronoun when they don't then you cause offense. Add to this the large growing number of different pronouns for different genders there is a big risk of getting things wrong and forgetting which was the right word for the right situation. So really it is up to those who wish to be addressed a certain way to take the initiative and request it.

But unless you become familiar with the person there is a big chance of getting things wrong. I have trouble remembering names let along a list of gender pronouns that apply to all the different gender identifications. It is different if it is just a case of Miss, Ms or Mrs as there are only three choices and usually people don't get offended if you get it wrong. At the end of the day new words usually evolve into society because people see the need and are not forced.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Do you all really thing that transgenderism and homosexuality magically popped up in the 1960's in the USA? Go study history, specifically Native American history/sexuality. Quit being so narrow minded and convinced that your way of thinking is the only right way.

 

[RDKirk]

Do you all really thing that transgenderism and homosexuality magically popped up in the 1960's in the USA? Go study history, specifically Native American history/sexuality. Quit being so narrow minded and convinced that your way of thinking is the only right way.

And whatever there was of the subject in Native American history/sexuality has been overcome by events. It wasn't adopted by society. It doesn't matter anymore.

In terms of grammar, we're not even talking about homosexuals or transgenders, the issue is with "gender fluids." That's a very, very small pool.

As I said before, grammar does not increase in complexity over time, it simplifies. An attempt to inject new complexity that will have significance in only such rare occurrences simply will not "take" in the course of time.

 

[stevevw]

Do you all really thing that transgenderism and homosexuality magically popped up in the 1960's in the USA? Go study history, specifically Native American history/sexuality. Quit being so narrow minded and convinced that your way of thinking is the only right way.

But we have seen an increase in gender identities and becoming transgender in recent years well beyond any increase related to more acceptance. This points to there being other reasons for the increase such as a sociological basis where it is fashionable to become gender fluid and transgender or perhaps more to do with why young people in general are suffering mental health issues that is connected to self worth and body image and not specifically just about gender. Also the question needs to be asked is part of the increase because we are pushing young people to be transgender when they are perhaps going through normal development in questioning their gender and will grow out of it.

Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?
The tricky business of gender identity | Toby Young | Standpoint

 

[RDKirk]

But we have seen an increase in gender identities and becoming transgender in recent years well beyond any increase related to more acceptance. This points to there being other reasons for the increase such as a sociological basis where it is fashionable to become gender fluid and transgender or perhaps more to do with why young people in general are suffering mental health issues that is connected to self worth and body image and not specifically just about gender. Also the question needs to be asked is part of the increase because we are pushing young people to be transgender when they are perhaps going through normal development in questioning their gender and will grow out of it.

I've watched a few YouTube videos of a particular transgender woman who very stridently points out this issue and warns against it.

Another part of this problem is the early sexualization of children, pushed in children's media, clothing, et cetera, and even by unthinking parents. If you sexualize them too early, then that's going to bring up these issues too early as well.

 

[stevevw]

I've watched a few YouTube videos of a particular transgender woman who very stridently points out this issue and warns against it.

Another part of this problem is the early sexualization of children, pushed in children's media, clothing, et cetera, and even by unthinking parents. If you sexualize them too early, then that's going to bring up these issues too early as well.

Its almost as though adults are living through children. Projecting their own beliefs onto the next generation. No wonder youth have the highest rates of mental health issues and suicide.

 

[super animator]

I've watched a few YouTube videos of a particular transgender woman who very stridently points out this issue and warns against it.

Contronapoints?

 

[Moral Orel]

I would have thought that was self explanatory. The maternity penalty is any issue associated with being pregnant that causes women a penalty (disadvantage) such as being sacked, losing income, job title, promotions etc because they are pregnant. To articulate support you have to identify that it is women who suffer these setbacks not people because the discrimination is aimed at a specific gender being women and detail how women compared to men in the workplace are affected as far as pay, career etc.

But it's not aimed at a gender, it's aimed at pregnant people. If a business isn't firing non-pregnant women, then it isn't aimed at the gender. If a transgender man gets pregnant, he should be protected from firing as well.

Sorry I mean transgender activists want to minimize the fact that cis women can get pregnant as it represents the fact that women are different to men.

I don't know what it means to "minimize a fact".

 

[Kylie]

If it's okay for folks to find things immoral but think they should be legal, then it's okay to choose to use people's preferred pronouns but think it shouldn't be illegal to not do so. He said he'll use the preferred pronouns. What more do you want? Him to support legislation that demands everyone else does too?

ETA I'm jumping into this conversation because I see things the same way. Freedom of speech is a thing to be valued in and of itself and should be protected against frivolous restrictions.

And yet when the exact same thing is done for other things that he wouldn't do - like theft - does he complain? I'm criticising the double standard.