A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[stevevw]

I think she makes some excellent points about the Census. many in the trans community wants to make it clear that women aren’t the only ones who get pregnant or have periods, that men have/do these things also. How can the Census be considered reliable concerning statistical information concerning men and women when Gender is used this way? If we went with biological sex instead of Gender, it seems this would no longer be a problem.

I agree, just one of a number of issues that are coming out showing how gender ideology conflicts with common sense and the truth.

 

[Moral Orel]

I agree.

Do you have one that you'd like to discuss? Because I, like JP, see the Canadian laws about pronoun usage as a free speech issue, not a biology issue. I should have the legal right to call a biological male who identifies as a man a "she" if I want to. Do you agree?

 

[Ken-1122]

You are assuming that a person's gender identity and sexual biology are the same thing.

No I don’t! I understand gender identity and I understand biology and though I don’t agree with gender identity as currently defined, if you wanna address gender, fine! Just don’t insist I do it

 

[Kylie]

No I don’t! I understand gender identity and I understand biology and though I don’t agree with gender identity as currently defined, if you wanna address gender, fine! Just don’t insist I do it

Okay...

Let's say we have a person. Their gender identity tells them that they are a woman, and they wish to be referred to with feminine pronouns. But this person was born with a penis.

Will you refer to them as:

1. Him
2. Her
3. They
4. It

Which number please?

 

[Ken-1122]

Okay...

Let's say we have a person. Their gender identity tells them that they are a woman, and they wish to be referred to with feminine pronouns. But this person was born with a penis.

Will you refer to them as:

1. Him
2. Her
3. They
4. It

Which number please?

When speaking to someone else about this person, I will ignore gender and refer to biology (#1) when speaking to this person I will use the pronouns “you” or “your”

 

[Kylie]

When speaking to someone else about this person, I will ignore gender and refer to biology (#1) when speaking to this person I will use the pronouns “you” or “your”

And if you tell me about this interaction, will you say, "I spoke with ____ and _____ seemed like a nice person."

1. Him/he
2. Her/she
3. Them/they
4. I

 

[stevevw]

Do you have one that you'd like to discuss? Because I, like JP, see the Canadian laws about pronoun usage as a free speech issue, not a biology issue. I should have the legal right to call a biological male who identifies as a man a "she" if I want to. Do you agree?

Yes I agree that primarily this is a freedom of speech issue. That is what Petersen was mostly concerned about. There are many examples of how people are getting into trouble for expressing their views. It may not always get to the level of people facing the Ontario human rights commission but they may be disciplined by their workplace or education facility for refusing to go along with language and policies or expressing the truth about gender. Nowadays you only have to mention the word women and you can get into trouble. If you speak out about a situation in sticking up for females such as their right to safe spaces you are labelled trans-phobic. I could list dozens of examples such as

Women fired for saying it is OK to vote no in the same sex marriage referendum
Company that 'fired' woman for saying 'it's OK to vote no' may have broken law
Canadian bus driver charge with “Wilful Promotion of Hatred against an identifiable group namely the gay community.” for distributing a political flyer that said homosexuality is associated with sexually transmitted diseases, including HPV of the rectum, which the U.S. Centers for Disease Control says is true. The pamphlets also included Christian statements indicating that unrepentant support for homosexual acts will lead to “eternal peril” but repentance to “the free gift of eternal life.”
https://thefederalist.com/2018/06/2...ed-two-years-later-criticizing-homosexuality/
A Canadian man has to pay $55,000 to a provincial politician because he referred to a transgender women politician as a "biological male"
The chilling evidence that Jordan Peterson was right: transgender ideology is ‘totalitarian’
Student was kicked out of a class for stating there was only 2 gender
College student kicked out of class for telling professor there are only two genders

An example of the ideology involved there are many good causes in support of transgender people such as the higher rates of abuse they suffer. But the number 1 issue trans activists focus on is the word women and removing this from the vocabulary in mainstream society. This has led to traditional organizations becoming politically correct and changing their language such as Cancer Research UK, using language like “Cervical screening (or the smear test) is relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix.” They have taken the word women out despite only women can have a cervix.

This exclusive language denying the word women is hurting women causes. For example how can you stand up for the rights of pregnant women in the workforce when you cannot align pregnancy with being a women. Relabeling toilets as gender neutral has resulted in women having to wait longer to use the toilet as males as well as transgender women can use both urinals and cubicles and women can only use cubicles. Refuges for abused women such as rape victims which is often at the hands of males are forced to share their facilities including bathrooms with males who still have their genitals which would be the last thing they need. These are actual situations that are occurring.
Trans rights should not come at the cost of women’s fragile gains

You can apply the above scenarios to most free democratic countries and I believe this will continue to increase as time goes by.

 

[stevevw]

And if you tell me about this interaction, will you say, "I spoke with ____ and _____ seemed like a nice person."

1. Him/he
2. Her/she
3. Them/they
4. I

But what about all the others, that's where it gets confusing

• Ze/hir/hirs/hirself
• Ze/zir/zirs/zirself
• E or Ey/em/eirs/eirself or emself
• Per/per/pers/perself
• Hu/hum/hus/humself
• Sie/sir/sirs/sirself
• Xie/xir/xirs/xirself
• Xe/xem/xyrs/xemself
• Ve/ver/vis/verself
• Tey/tem/ters/terself

 

[Ken-1122]

And if you tell me about this interaction, will you say, "I spoke with ____ and _____ seemed like a nice person."

1. Him/he
2. Her/she
3. Them/they
4. I

Again; if speaking to you about this other person I refer to their sexual biology not gender

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes I agree that primarily this is a freedom of speech issue.

Hmmm... That's not really what I asked about your agreement, though. Should it be legal for me to tease a biological male who identifies as a man by calling him a "her" and a "she"? I find it curious that you would specifically limit what you agreed to there.

An example of the ideology involved there are many good causes in support of transgender people such as the higher rates of abuse they suffer. But the number 1 issue trans activists focus on is the word women and removing this from the vocabulary in mainstream society.

Alright, if you can't pick just one, I will. Let's start here.

This can't be true or we wouldn't have people claiming to be "transgender women". Perhaps you meant that they are trying to remove the word "woman" from specific places that you feel should retain usage of the word, but not "mainstream society"?

This has led to traditional organizations becoming politically correct and changing their language such as Cancer Research UK, using language like “Cervical screening (or the smear test) is relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix.” They have taken the word women out despite only women can have a cervix.

Just so we're clear, people aren't denying the existence of cervixes in transgender men. It isn't as though folks are trying to say cervixes come and go depending on how you identify with your gender.

With that said, so what? What problems does this cause?

This exclusive language denying the word women is hurting women causes. For example how can you stand up for the rights of pregnant women in the workforce when you cannot align pregnancy with being a women.

I can stand up for the rights of pregnant "people" just as well as pregnant "women". Why should I care about the semantics? I think it sounds silly too, but I'm not seeing an issue beyond that. Can you show me some actual tangible harm that comes from people phrasing things differently than we're used to?

 

[stevevw]

Hmmm... That's not really what I asked about your agreement, though. Should it be legal for me to tease a biological male who identifies as a man by calling him a "her" and a "she"? I find it curious that you would specifically limit what you agreed to there.

Sorry, I have misunderstood you. Are you saying should it be legal to tease a male by calling them a she. I think we should be able to do this. It is the same for teasing them with a number of things such as when someone says to a male they need to man up when challenging a male to take responsibility. We have food products that have extra big portions and they are call man sized or blokes big sized meals. If people tried to stopped these familiar Aussie names because of political correctness there would be an uproar.

Alright, if you can't pick just one, I will. Let's start here.

This can't be true or we wouldn't have people claiming to be "transgender women". Perhaps you meant that they are trying to remove the word "woman" from specific places that you feel should retain usage of the word, but not "mainstream society"?

Yes that is what I said. Transgender ideology is part of gender ideology which believes that gender is a spectrum so a women is just one of many genders. So they want gender neutral names used in mainstream society. That means excluding the word women from mainstream society.

Just so we're clear, people aren't denying the existence of cervix's in transgender men. It isn't as though folks are trying to say cervix's come and go depending on how you identify with your gender.

This is part of the confusion created by disassociating biological sex from gender. A transgender women cannot have a cervix so technically according to gender ideology women do and do not have a cervix because a Nate male can declare themselves as a women.

With that said, so what? What problems does this cause?

As the article linked says many women may not be familiar with their internal organs and women who use English as a second language may not understand what a cervix means. At the same time similar campaigns targeted at men do not remove the word men. It seems women's groups are targeted by transgender activists only. This only contradicts the equal rights stand as women are already subject to inequality. This situation only highlights a bigger issue of how women's specific issues, rights and safety are being compromised and confused by disallowing people to make women an identifiable group in society.

I can stand up for the rights of pregnant "people" just as well as pregnant "women". Why should I care about the semantics? I think it sounds silly too, but I'm not seeing an issue beyond that. Can you show me some actual tangible harm that comes from people phrasing things differently than we're used to?

I don't think it is as simple as that. To get the message across and describe maternity disadvantage in the workplace you have to associate this with women and motherhood. Otherwise you are blurring and compromising the message by not being specific. But that is what gender ideology does across the board. Replacing a subjective view of gender over physical sex obscures women's interests.

 

[Kylie]

But what about all the others, that's where it gets confusing

• Ze/hir/hirs/hirself
• Ze/zir/zirs/zirself
• E or Ey/em/eirs/eirself or emself
• Per/per/pers/perself
• Hu/hum/hus/humself
• Sie/sir/sirs/sirself
• Xie/xir/xirs/xirself
• Xe/xem/xyrs/xemself
• Ve/ver/vis/verself
• Tey/tem/ters/terself

Why is it confusing? You don't have to figure it out for yourself. You just listen to the person say, "I would prefer it if you used these particular pronouns for me," and then you use those particular pronouns for them. What part of that do you find confusing?

 

[Kylie]

Again; if speaking to you about this other person I refer to their sexual biology not gender

Why aren't you answering my question?

 

[Ken-1122]

Why aren't you answering my question?

The person in your scenario is a biological male so obviously I will address him as he. How is this not answering your question?

 

[stevevw]

Why is it confusing? You don't have to figure it out for yourself. You just listen to the person say, "I would prefer it if you used these particular pronouns for me," and then you use those particular pronouns for them. What part of that do you find confusing?

I don't mind using pronouns if requested. I just don't want to be forced to.

 

[Kylie]

The person in your scenario is a biological male so obviously I will address him as he. How is this not answering your question?

So you decide that your opinion about this person is more important than their own opinion about themselves. And that's why it's not worth having this discussion with you. Because you are incapable of respecting others.

 

[Kylie]

I don't mind using pronouns if requested. I just don't want to be forced to.

And if someone says, "I'd prefer it if you used these particular pronouns for me," how is that you being forced? How could anyone force you to use a particular set of pronouns?

 

[stevevw]

And if someone says, "I'd prefer it if you used these particular pronouns for me," how is that you being forced? How could anyone force you to use a particular set of pronouns?

I am talking about if the government brought in legislation that forced people to use a certain language. That is controlling the way we think and speak and violating freedom of speech.

 

[Moral Orel]

As the article linked says many women may not be familiar with their internal organs and women who use English as a second language may not understand what a cervix means.

Okay, I suppose that's a bit of a thing. Twitter campaigns to raise health awareness are such a specialized thing, though. I can't see how it's a big deal. It isn't as though physicians don't know what's going on in their patients' bodies.

I don't think it is as simple as that. To get the message across and describe maternity disadvantage in the workplace you have to associate this with women and motherhood. Otherwise you are blurring and compromising the message by not being specific.

What specifically is this message that is getting blurred and compromised? What are the rights for pregnant women that need stood up for? And how does simply saying "people" instead of "women" hamper that message?

 

[stevevw]

Okay, I suppose that's a bit of a thing. Twitter campaigns to raise health awareness are such a specialized thing, though. I can't see how it's a big deal. It isn't as though physicians don't know what's going on in their patient's bodies.

What specifically is this message that is getting blurred and compromised? What are the rights for pregnant women that need stood up for? And how does simply saying "people" instead of "women" hamper that message?

Part of why women find themselves being discriminated against such as in the workplace is because they are women and pregnancy happens to be part of that. How can you describe the maternity penalty as a factor in women’s disadvantage in the workplace, without associating women with pregnancy. Neutralizing women's experience through neutralizing the language about women will not help.
But this is only part of why it is important to be able to use gender specific language for women. The aim of neutralizing the word women from gender for gender activists is part of neutralizing gender biologically. If the language is neutralized so is the physical environment. If we cannot name a support agency specifically for women then how can we even have a women's specific space.

Whats in a name. The language we use is usually what will determine how we behave and establish norms in society. The aim of gender ideology is to neutralize male and female biologically so that it is interchangeable. If a male can identify as a women then part of transgender ideology is to also minimize the ability of cis women being able to get pregnant as it is a reminder that there is a biological difference between male and female and one that transgender women cannot achieve. That in itself tells us that it is important to link pregnancy with cis women otherwise it has no special status physically, socially, emotionally and psychologically.